Is Liberal Catholicism Dead?

[Roger_Wissinger]

I must say I’ve enjoyed this discussion. I’ve come to the conclusion that skyryder does not have an original thought and that he got brain washed in some liberal college. He needs to stop cutting and pasting and just write what he thinks and stop repeating what some liberal professor told him. Skyryder’s posts are boring me. Has for me, I’m not going to acknowledge his remarks or posts again. I’m a traditionalists and I’m thanking God that OUR pope is trying to bring back the reverence back to our church. Bring back the communion rails!!!

 

[JudieK]

Truth may give authority; but authority is not truth. In the words of St. Theresa of Avilla: “The road to Hell is paved with the bald heads of Bishops” When leadership or other members of the faith are in error one morally needs to make an effort to correct it; then you leave the matter in the hands of God. Authority without a system of checks and balances is Tyranny. As Lord Acton said in his writings on the Papacy: “Absolute power; corrupts absolutely.” Men are not lemmings that follow leaders over cliffs.

I don’t see the moral error that you think that the Pope is committing. Is it being pro-life? That is not a moral error, but a virtue. It is disallowing married clergy? The Bible is full of texts about celibacy being the “higher road.” Not to mention that “liberalism” doesn’t see anything as an absolute error… everything is relative and according to one’s preferences.

 

[Lepanto]

Yes there will be tomorrow and it will be great! We are on the brink of a new golden age in history. I’ll give you my thoughts on what worship will look like in 2108.

I base my ideas on the following: An integrated world economy, with advances in communications & travel, and increased interdependence will lead to a world civilization with a common currency, common languaages, basic education, and a world govenment. This world civilization (a first in history) will be needed to deal with problems of destruction of the ecosystem, global warming, overpopulation, poverty, diesease and food shortage. In addition there will be a need to control or prevent wars as every nation on earth will have access to or be capable of producing weapons of mass destruction. Technical advances such as fusion energy, space travel and genetic engineering will fundamentally change life from what it is today.Most people living in the 22nd century will be both multi racial and multicultural.

America will follow Europe’s lead in declining religious affiliation with perhaps 10 percent or less attending mass or services weekly. This will be mainly due to beliefs no longer being relevant to modern life.This will create a need for new evangelization and a reinterpretation of who both Man and God are.

I believe the papacy will end and the Catholic Church will be run by a Council. This will allow a reunification with protestants. The worship services in 2108 will be a merger of both protestant and catholic traditions…somewhat like nondenominational churches today. Clergy will be male and female. They will be married. All leaders eg Bishops will be elected by the congregation.

A worship service in 2108 will use computer telecomunications systems ( the future of todays internet) as a way to evangelize individuals and small groups world wide outside the church building. Liturgy will be highly creative, with changing prayers, movie clips, skits, praise dance, poetry, electronic music, 3-d holograms, etc.This will most likely be similar to many of the youth liturgies. .I see churches with large 25’ x 100’ projection screens in front of communion tables/altars which will allow an worship environment that can be instantly changed to fit the mood of a charismatic prayer experience. Spirituality will be emphasized with a wide variety of activities allowing personal participation such as book clubs, scripture groups, prayer teams, art and electronics ministries etc. I see a great deal of outreach and world wide missions projects being worked into the new mass. I see personal communication devices( the future of todays cell phones) being incorporated into the mass/service with electronic interaction between priest/ministers & attendees on line. Vestments will be seen as theatrical costumes made by members of a given church for special occasions. All jewelry will have electronic functions built in as part of artwork.
Sacraments will be minimal with more emphasis placed on teaching. Religious art will fundamentally change from paintings and statuary to moving electronic media. Some religious art will deal with God inside the person…resembling Buddhist Meditation Paintings. Others will deal with new events such as Neil Armstrongs taking communion before being the first man to set foot on the moon. Historic paintings of Christ will be reworked to show life in the first century accurately… A great deal of worship will take place out of doors as a way of witnessing, and as a way to emphasize man’s stewardship of creation. (eg river or ocean baptisms, beach weddings etc.) There will be fundamental changes in the rite of burial with cemetaries being turned tinto nature preserves, with casket/vault/headstone internment being banned. As people will live well past 100 marrige will be for a period of specified years…allowing couples to renew vows or seek new partners While the tridentine rite may be practiced in living museums such as the Vatican…as most Christians will be non european countries our faith will have a native 3d world flavor.
Biggest change: China will be the #1 Christian Nation on earth…
There will be peace and mutual respect among all world faiths.

 

[ToddM]

I’m still trying to figure out exactly how there is going to be peace and
respect among all faiths.

That is a galvanized steel pipe dream.

 

[AmyS]

I’m still trying to figure out exactly how there is going to be peace and
respect among all faiths.

That is a galvanized steel pipe dream.

I hate to put down or make fun of anything, people are entitled to their dreams… But, I liked the no papacy part, I guess Jesus lied to us? And, ordained women? I guess that goes out the door when the Church has fallen apart? Some might say this is the Earth after the Rapture has happened (of course I don’t believe in the Rapture)

 

[skyryder]

"Wherever I go in the whole world, the thing that makes me the saddest is watching people receive communion in the hand."

WHOA! Where is this madness coming from? Talk about brainwashing! Do you accept all ideas from the Baltimore Catechism without sketical examination or are you tearing pages from the book and using it to roll joints & toke ganja?

READ THE GOSPELS. Notice the many times Jesus touches people and people touch Christ. Touch is a form communication and a good way to express emotions. It is how we humans express intimacy. God wants to be intimate with us. That is why he became fully human. He came to tear down barriers between Man and God. There is nothing wrong with communion in the hand. If Christ had some problem with communion in the hand I am sure he would have flipped bread on his disciples tongues at the Last Supper. THE GOSPELS EXPLICITLY STATE THAT THE CONSECRATED BREAD WAS PASSED AROUND AND BROKEN & EATEN BY THE TWELVE USING THEIR HANDS. I
n addition, because this was a Passover the bread was also eaten by children and women who were always part of the traditional Jewish Seder. DaVinci’s painting of the Last Supper is Renaissance fantasy. Real Passovers in the first century looked nothing like that.

GET REAL! Good ridance to the communion rail. Let’s celebrate communion with Liturgical Dance.

 

[ToddM]

"Wherever I go in the whole world, the thing that makes me the saddest is watching people receive communion in the hand."

WHOA! Where is this madness coming from? Talk about brainwashing! Do you accept all ideas from the Baltimore Catechism without sketical examination or are you tearing pages from the book and using it to roll joints & toke ganja?

READ THE GOSPELS. Notice the many times Jesus touches people and people touch Christ. Touch is a form communication and a good way to express emotions. It is how we humans express intimacy. God wants to be intimate with us. That is why he became fully human. He came to tear down barriers between Man and God. There is nothing wrong with communion in the hand. If Christ had some problem with communion in the hand I am sure he would have flipped bread on his disciples tongues at the Last Supper. THE GOSPELS EXPLICITLY STATE THAT THE CONSECRATED BREAD WAS PASSED AROUND AND BROKEN & EATEN BY THE TWELVE USING THEIR HANDS. I
n addition, because this was a Passover the bread was also eaten by children and women who were always part of the traditional Jewish Seder. DaVinci’s painting of the Last Supper is Renaissance fantasy. Real Passovers in the first century looked nothing like that.

GET REAL! Good ridance to the communion rail. Let’s celebrate communion with Liturgical Dance.

Maybe, just maybe, we should consider just a bit more consideration for, if not belief in, the lives and sayings of a saint.

You so sure she meant this the way one might tend to take it?

If our thoughts are not His thoughts, and our ways are not His ways, then maybe a creature who is closer to Him than to what they were and we likely are might see things more His way?

Take this and eat it…

Open hands = stony earth sometimes

You tracking? Maybe.

Nice reflexes though bro.

 

[ToddM]

“Catholic doctrine tells us that the primary duty of charity does not lie in the toleration of false ideas, however sincere they may be, nor in the theoretical or practical indifference towards the errors and vices in which we see our brethren plunged . . . Further, whilst Jesus was kind to sinners and to those who went astray, He did not respect their fasle ideas, however sincere they might have appeared. He loved them all, but He instructed them in order to convert them and save them.” - Pope St. Pius X, Our Apostolic Mandate, August 25, 1910.

“Every day new sects are created and what Saint Paul says about human trickery comes true, with cunning which tries to draw those into error (cf Eph 4, 14). Having a clear faith, based on the Creed of the Church, is often labelled today as a fundamentalism. Whereas, relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and “swept along by every wind of teaching”, looks like the only attitude (acceptable) to today’s standards. We are moving towards a dictatorship of relativism which does not recognise anything as for certain and which has as its highest goal one’s own ego and one’s own desires.” -

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Homily of the Dean of the College of Cardinals, at the Mass for the Election of the Roman Pontiff, 2005.

Go ahead bro, get it out of your system. I’ve been there and worse. It’s like kicking the horse. Here, I’ll hold your hair, someone
held mine.

 

[una_fides]

There is nothing “liberal” about Catholicism. Catholicism and liberalism are like oil and water. Anyone who trys to mix things like modernism, feminism , abortion, etc simply because a schismatic and heretic by church default. Their “fight” is a lost cause, since they are fighting against God. In fact churches that give in to secular pressure are a good sign that that Church is not lead by the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit is firm in its truth and does not budge no matter how much liberals pressure people.

AMEN

 

[skyryder]

Extraoridinary Claims Demand Extraordinary Evidence.

Truth fears no question…however propaganda does. Lets not confuse the two.

 

[catharina]

Extraoridinary Claims Demand Extraordinary Evidence.

I can’t imagine the religious affiliation that you hold that leads you to assess truth acc to English law and Parlimentarian debate. It sounds quite removed from the Catholic Faith. Christ indeed set up no man to be worshipped; however He did name a leader and a path of succession for leaders for all those who are within His Church. Quite clearly, the ten commandments pre-date any notion of English law and parlimentarian exchanges.

The ruling precepts of “Love God, love your neighbor” are established and regulated by law and by practice within the Catholic Church.

The issues of “Humanae Vitae, women’s ordination, married clergy, etc.” are issues for those who harbor/promote basic disagreement with Church law, history and practice. In your frame of reference, shall we simply wait and let the English sort it out? Why? There is nothing to be sorted out when one responds in Faith.

 

[ToddM]

Yeah

Hit a nerve? = Fear. Violent reaction? why.

Yes, lets, please.

Get any on your shoes? <Homage por vous

 

[ToddM]

You know, before I become to skewed or misconstrued, I must say that you sky, are like some of the dudes in my unit I ‘roll around’ and break ‘huevos’ with.

At least with you, as much as I totally disagree with just about everything you seem to say, at least the Church has a little more testosterone in it for me personally. Thanks for that.

You’re still wrong though.

Of course, so am I. Its just harder to see your own nonsense sometimes, you trackin’?

 

[Ender]

This is a very dangerous statement. We weren’t give brains for decoration. Not thinking and accepting uncritically all statements coming from the mouth of any leader is called cult worship. There are many false ideas in the Catholic Church’s past that needed to be cleaned up. eg Galileo. We have similar problems today. eg Humane Vitae, Women’s Ordination, Married Clergy etc. Ratzinger 's insistance on papal absolutism is contrary to the Gospel. Nowhere does Christ set up a human leader to be worshiped.

How are these “false ideas” to be cleaned up? Shall we vote on them? You have a very high opinion of … opinion, as if there was some intellectual challenge in having one. Which is more difficult: having an opinion as to whether Bach was a better musician than Mozart or understanding the laws of fluid dynamics? You cannot approach faith without the acceptance of unprovable theorems any more than you can do mathematics without them. We quote Aquinas and Augustine in the same way that mathematicians quote Euclid and Euler, not as individuals with interesting opinions but as guides who can explain the implications behind certain basic truths. Your opinion on women’s ordination is no more relevant than your opinion on how to trisect an angle.

In the tradition of English Law and Parlimentarianism debate and dissent is how we arrive at truth.

So when the English parliament passes a law that permits today what was prohibited yesterday, which position represents truth? Moral truth is no more likely to be discovered by majority opinion than are scientific truths.

Ender

 

[fix]

How are these “false ideas” to be cleaned up? Shall we vote on them? You have a very high opinion of … opinion, as if there was some intellectual challenge in having one. Which is more difficult: having an opinion as to whether Bach was a better musician than Mozart or understanding the laws of fluid dynamics? You cannot approach faith without the acceptance of unprovable theorems any more than you can do mathematics without them. We quote Aquinas and Augustine in the same way that mathematicians quote Euclid and Euler, not as individuals with interesting opinions but as guides who can explain the implications behind certain basic truths. Your opinion on women’s ordination is no more relevant than your opinion on how to trisect an angle.

I just have to say I really enjoyed reading this. Thank you.

 

[JudieK]

Extraoridinary Claims Demand Extraordinary Evidence.

There is nothing dangerous at all about this statement. The Pope is first and foremost a teacher, a pastor, a shepard. If he didn’t guide and counsel his flock there would be something wrong. He does not set himself up as the absolute authority… he speaks as a pastor. The Church… the Deposit of Faith… that is the truth, and it doesn’t change, as much as we might wish it would ( I don’t). Perhaps the medieval church was wrong about the earth being the center of the universe, but science was just starting to figure these things out. I’m sure it didn’t know about dinosaurs, either. That doesn’t prove anything! Those aren’t doctrinal concerns. I don’t see how anyone can feel that setting Church doctrine by “majority vote” is the way to go. The Pope, and I agree with him, says that such a scenario leads to a Church that is a slave and servant to human ego and desires. Who would want a chuch like that? Church should lift you up to higher things, not come down to wallow in the muck of our lower urges. Yuck. So instead of the Church saying “sex is a sacred sign of a couple’s love and cooperation with God’s creative power” you would like it to say “Sex is about whatever feels good to you right now! Go to town, people! And don’t worry about a possible pregnancy… we know how to get rid of that. No guilt! Be free! Be creative! (but not procreative!!! That’s a drag!!!)”

 

[ToddM]

There is nothing dangerous at all about this statement. The Pope is first and foremost a teacher, a pastor, a shepard. If he didn’t guide and counsel his flock there would be something wrong. He does not set himself up as the absolute authority… he speaks as a pastor. The Church… the Deposit of Faith… that is the truth, and it doesn’t change, as much as we might wish it would ( I don’t). Perhaps the medieval church was wrong about the earth being the center of the universe, but science was just starting to figure these things out. I’m sure it didn’t know about dinosaurs, either. That doesn’t prove anything! Those aren’t doctrinal concerns. I don’t see how anyone can feel that setting Church doctrine by “majority vote” is the way to go. The Pope, and I agree with him, says that such a scenario leads to a Church that is a slave and servant to human ego and desires. Who would want a chuch like that? Church should lift you up to higher things, not come down to wallow in the muck of our lower urges. Yuck. So instead of the Church saying “sex is a sacred sign of a couple’s love and cooperation with God’s creative power” you would like it to say “Sex is about whatever feels good to you right now! Go to town, people! And don’t worry about a possible pregnancy… we know how to get rid of that. No guilt! Be free! Be creative! (but not procreative!!! That’s a drag!!!)”

It is dangerous though. The question is who and what is in danger.

 

[una_fides]

Read the History of the Catholic Church by Hans Kung

The God I worship is one who is infinite, creative, loves unconditionally and embraces all. I do not worship a Tribal God who has a chosen people, with outsiders being damned… Catholics must love Protestants, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists etc. God calls us not to be religious but to be fully human to live, to love, and to be free. The present Catholic religion is not about God it is about fear, power, and control Do not be liminted to the culture you live in. Experience God first hand in your heart and unfettered by dogma or tradition. Remember God is not Catholic. God is the ultimate dimension of life which all faiths point, none understand, and is the mystery of mysteries.

Sounds like you may have successfully created your own god. It sounds to me by your own admission that you are not at all Catholic. Why pretend? I don’t understand why someone would call him/herself a “liberal Catholic” when they really reject the Catholic faith completely? You have your own religion that you are following. You are not following Catholicism or any other formal religion. You have instead adapted/created/formulated your own universalist dogma on which you base your faith. Catholics choose to base their faith on divine revelation. Since you reject God’s divine revelation and believe that God does not want us to know the truth about him, then you have rejected the basis for the Catholic faith and all formal religions, which you openly admit. I do not know why you continue posting on a Catholic answers forum, except that perhaps you inwardly desire for someone to disprove your theories. Otherwise, you would do well to not try to promulgate your anti-religious agenda on a Catholic forum.

By the way, I think Eusebius has a much better perspective writing in the early Church than liberals who reject God’s revelation 2000 years later.

I hope you see that it is precisely because God loves us that he has revealed himself to us through Jesus his Son and has preserved his true teachings through his Church, which he has purchased with his own precious blood. My prayers are with you.

 

[nobeerinheaven]

Skyryder, you do not consider yourself Catholic - do you?

If so, why? How do you differentiate that faith from some other faith - why is it important to you, that you be Catholic?

 

[ToddM]

The association of Ipuwer with the Exodus is generally rejected by Egyptologists, who when interpreting the Exodus generally place it later, in the reign of Ramesses II. Some have alternatively interpreted the poem’s references to disturbances in nature as relating to the Thera eruption,which occurred ca. 1650-1600 BC.
The issue with Exodus is that large numbers of people leave some evidence of their travel or occupying a land. Nothing has ever been found. The exodus story of the giving of the law has strange parallels with King Sargon of Akkad. Jews may have adapted the story during the Babylonian Captivity in the same way the story of Tobias was created.

The book “The Jesus Mysteries” outlines many of the problems with the new testament as a piece of writing. ***The national enquirer said the Lord just landed the mothership on the whitehouse lawn, so what bro?***The New Testament has been written and rewritten many times. ***You mean translations? What? ***“The book Who Changed the Bible and Why” highlights further problems. ***How about a book called 'Who’s trying to destroy the Bible and Why?***Archeological research ***What research is that? has refuted the existance of early popes running a unified church. How so? ***Today’s papacy is a medieval invention. or a continuity/extension/.The early church appears to be a very different organization than that painted by the Vatican or Ebusius.No air Jordans, no ipods, yep. Read the History of the Catholic Church by Hans Kung

The God I worship is one who is infinite, creative, loves unconditionally Does he love sin? Seems to be a condition and embraces all. Including sin as well I supposeI do not worship a Tribal God who has a chosen people, ***You mean humanity? ***with outsiders being damned.Because they choose to be outside Catholics must love Protestants, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists etc. ***And?***God calls us not to be religious ***Look up ‘religare’ ***but to be fully human to live, to love, (Bind, sacrifice, i.e. WORSHIPand to be free. *Did you look up religare yet? * By way of the faith i.e. a religionThe present Catholic religion is not about God it is about fear, power, and control ***How would you know?***Do not be liminted to the culture you live in. The culture I live in won’t limit anything in a very short while, wake up, pleaseExperience God first hand in your heart ***How do you know the reader doesn’t, isn’t that judgement, or was that added by ‘them’ later?***and unfettered Unguidedby dogma or tradition. Remember God is not Catholic. God is the ultimate dimension Look up ‘eternity’ pleaseof life which all faiths point, *** Satanism, atheism, liberalism?***none understand, Implication, you doand is the mystery of mysteries.

You got a ton of heart bro. Sorry, I can’t help what I write. I am a helplessly conditioned/indoctrinated cult drone/tool/ chump. Blame my ‘evil overlord’ His Holiness.

If we are such creatures, why do you bother. Careful responding ‘I never said’…

Oh, PS. Have you ever been in a position of leadership, even on a small scale?

Monday morning quarterbacks and armchair generals need not apply.

If any normal human adult deserves our charity, prayers, and the benefit of the doubt, and the greatest consideration when they are wrong, it would be a leader.

Do better. You try making the hard choices working under the Nazis, or facing the culture of death you are so enamored by, when not only lives but soulsare at stake. **

‘There were many bad Popes’ Hey, all of them were and are, just as we are all ‘bad people’.

If they and we were not, then why would Christ, assuming this is another ‘rewrite’ send the holy spirit in the first place.

Wait for it…wait for it…