Is Liberal Catholicism Dead?

[catharina]

I think conservatives need to focus less on rules and more on who God really is. If God is a reasoning, loving, and freeing person…then some of the crazy ideas advanced by the Catholic Right need to be reconsidered.
Would a God who designed a balanced eco system promote unlimited population growth? No…so Humane Vitae’s ban on birth control is wrong.

Would a rational and loving God predispose some people to be gay deep in the core of their being, and then damn them for expressing love, or seeking a life long partner? Doesn’t seem reasonable.

Would a God say priests can marry in Paul’s Letters to Timothy and then ban it years later. If God can’t lie, perhaps self appointed leaders do, for selfish ends.
.
Would a reasoning God give liberty and deny it’s use in free speech or exploration of new ideas without censorhip?

Would a loving God allow Crusades, and Inquistion to punish enemies or people a Church doen’t like? I thought Scripture said
Love your enemies and do good to persecutors.

Would a God create all men as equals and then deny that equality in the form of a dictatorial church government? No again.

If only God is infallible (because he is infinite) there is no way a finite man can be infallible by definition.

Like many Catholics I feel the church’s position on abortion, in vitro fertilization and stem cell research needs to be updated to square with scientific fact. Is a single living cell a person? No way.This is all or nothing thinking and is a classical sign of neurosis. Please remember that quickening was looked at as the time of ensoulment by the Ancient Church, prior to that no soul.

Would a creative God give men artistic, musical or literary gifts and then ban them from worship because the Pope doesn’t like them. Seems contrary to his nature.

The conservatives need to rething their credo from the ground up.

**
Speaking of neurosis …

you have re-defined God in a way that is unrecognizible for all Christians and Jews. God is the Supreme Being Who made all things and keeps them in existence. God is NOT a person as you state/claim He is. As you seem to have a need to discredit Faith, you might want to start over by beginning with an accurate statement about God.

PS - yes, in God, there are three Divine Persons.**

 

[ToddM]

Contarini;3723457:

Funny. When I read Ratzinger, I get a sense of great open spaces and mighty winds of freedom and grace. I have never read a theologian who had less of a “small-minded, narrow God,” Based on what theological works of Ratzinger are you making this statement?

Ratzinger has spent his career persecuting theologians with new ideas, banning books, making nasty speeches about dissenters and being an impediment to progress of any kind in the church. Mighty winds of Freedom and Grace? Great Open Spaces? New Ideas? None of these exist for Benedict the 16th. He is a man imprisioned by tradition and unable to come to terms with the modern world or science.

I think the real issue between Liberals and Conservatives revolves around the issue of church organization. In the days of the early church there was none of the hierarchial nonsense we have today.

The original church was celebrated in peoples homes. It was a love feast followed by stories about Jesus and the breaking of bread. In the first few centuries after Christ, there were no jet planes, telephones, faxes or FEDEX deliveries. It took a long time to travel. More often than not, an apostle or evangelist would visit a City, start a Christian Community and leave.It might be years or decades before another came through. All Christians are priests by Baptism. As such, members of the community took turns consecrating hosts (remember this means calling God’s Presence as only Jesus and not men can change bread and wine into the body and blood) preaching the word, and forgiving sins. There was no formal structure to the mass. It was a highly creative form of worship that varied from place to place. Early Christians or Followers of the Way took turns preforming marriages and funerals. The early church was communistic, property was shared and members mutually helped eachother.

In later times, when the Gospels started to be written, the presider (later presbyters or priests) needed to be someone who could read (most ancients didn’t) and a school was established to train presiders, This was the beginning of a formal clergy. Prior to this time all teachers were home trained and often helped set up branch or distributed churches around the founding home in a city. The original Christians ALWAYS elected their priests, bishops, and patriarchs (later called Popes), and sat on ALL Ecumenical Councils. Males and feamles were equals in Christain Communities. Teachers or clergy were normally married with children and had other professions besides being the head of a local group of Christians. House churches had worship in the language of the people, communion tables facing the congregaton. statutes, reliciquaries and tabernacles didn’t exist.

At the time of Constantine the Laity’s Role was given to the Emperor and Nobles. Democracy and a communal sharing of property threatened the Emperor, so all churches were funded by the government via taxation and all clergy became political hacks or appointees. This was the beginning of formal mysterous liturgies, imperial art, superstition, luxurious living for top clergy and corrpution within the Church. Peter the fisherman wouldn’t be caught dead in silk gowns, gold slippers, lace vestments with pearls, rings with golf ball size jewels or pointy hats.The original mass was never meant to be preformed before idols or pagan altars yet this is exactly what happened in places like the Parthenon & Pantheon. Christ would have been scandalized.

At the time of the Council of Nicea, a formal Church Organization was set up with 4 heads of the Church in Alexandria, Rome, Constantinope, and Antioch all under control of the Emperor. There was no Supreme Pontiff. Original gospels & histories were rewritten to justify the establishment of a State Religion and end dissent. All pagan religions were destroyed and competing forms of non approved Christianty eg Ebonites & Gnostics suppressed. The burning of libraries and closing of pagan universities plunged Europe into a dark age that took more than 1000 years to recover from.

As the empire declined the 4 equal heads of the church quarreled and split apart. Pope in Rome became a poliical leader and king who challenged the Emperor. Misinterpretation of scripture,
& forged documents such as the Donation of Constantine or the Iberian Decretals were used to justify creation of the Modern Papacy. This eventually lead to the Great Schism.

Papal Claims of continuing succession from Peter are ingenuous, as there have been many anitpopes, periods without popes, bad popes and even lists of fake popes from Ebusius. There have been many breaks in the line of suceesion in both Roman and Orthodox Churches. Apostolic succession comes from the only continous line of faith in existance: which is Laity. As such, in our Roman Catholic Church the relationship between Laity and Clergy is that of Employer and Employee, not Serf and Fuedal Lord. A Council of Laity, not the Pope or Synod of Bishops is the ultimate governing authority in the Universal Church - this was firmly established by the Council of Constance. Because Laity and not Clergy is the source of Apostolic Succession - ALL Christian denominations have equal stature in the eyes of God and are ALL valid.

Laity has never lost its rights to elect priests, bishops or popes. In times of persecution, women priests in the Greek Catholic Church have been validly ordained clergy by action of Laity when no Bishop was present. Same for communities in India and China. In times of war, when a soldier is dying on the battlefield ordinary christians in the Orthodox Rite can hear confession and grant absolution. This was common practise as well in the Western Church up until around 1000 when the sacrament of penance was invented in monestaries. Confessionals are an invention of Late Gothic Architecture they never existed prior.

All problems within the Catholic or Universal Church stem from self appointed clergy refusing to listen to their superiors ie. laity.
Conservatives embrace the false Monarchial Organization of the Imperial Church. Liberals embrace the true Democratic Organization of the Early Church.

Ratzinger may well be one of the last popes. Infallibility, a questionable innovation of Vatican I (due to lack of quorum) is putting the Western Church in a position where it cannot escape past errors, bad policy or wholesale mismanagement and adapt to modern times. In such a situation, either the papacy is abolished or the church goes. extinct. It is my belief that the Holy Spirit is calling the Universal Church to abolish both the Roman Curia and Tradition, merge with Protestant & Orthodox Faiths, free itself from years of infighting and start anew proclaiming the Message of Christ worldwide. The conservatives need to acknowledge that the center and leader of our faith is Jesus not the Papacy, the Holy See or set of dogma & rules.:bowdown2:

Are you even the same person/did you actually write this? Your writing/language usage is entirely different than that of your other posts. This is a bit more coherent, kudos. Still debunked over and over and over and over and…

 

[estesbob]

skyryder;3724916:

Are you even the same person/did you actually write this? Your writing/language usage is entirely different than that of your other posts. This is a bit more coherent, kudos. Still debunked over and over and over and over and…

Same perosn cut-n-pasting from different sites.

 

[JudieK]

Why do so many critics of the church ( i.e. Skyryder) act as if priestly celibacy is somehow “imposed” upon some poor unsuspecting sap who had no idea this was part of the job description. It is clear from scripture that refraining from marriage is a higher calling:

"His disciples said to him, “If that is the case it is better not to marry.” He answered, “Not all can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.” (Matt. 19:10-12)

Celibacy is a gift given to some. It is a grace… not all receive it. It enables the person to be focused on the work of the Kingdom. Those that have the calling know what it entails. No one spings this on them on ordination day. Seminarians have years and years to change their minds. No one is forcing them to accept the call.

I suspect that the reason there are so many openly gay priests and bishops is because they entered the priesthood at a time when being gay was not acceptable in society. I don’t think everyone who is a priest had a genuine calling. Perhaps they never intended to live a celibate life. It is sad that this happens sometimes. In other eras, it was expected that at least one son would enter the priesthood. Family pressure may have replaced a genuine calling in those circumstances.

As I have said earlier, this is not a reason that the Catholic Church will become “extinct.” She will never become extinct. In every age, she will be there, proudly being the standard-bearer of truth. If you think liberalism makes for a more robust Christianity, look only to the Espicopalian Church, where anything and everything goes. They are not growing, but dying away. Apparently the liberal reforms you suggest are not the answer.

When Christianity liberalizes itself to conform to the culture, it becomes no different than the culture, and therefore becomes irrelevent. If anything and everything is true and creative and special, than nothing is. Nothing is “holy,” which means “set apart.” If nothing is holy, why go to church? I can worship at home.

Another point: sexual misconduct/ abuse/ statutory rape is epidemic in schools (teacher/student). This is the case even though there is no celibacy rule for teachers. Where is the outcry there? The case that celibacy is unnatural for men may be true… but grace is supernatural. It can make what is humanly impossible POSSIBLE.

one more point… if you don’t like the rules of the Catholic faith, no one is forcing you to live by them. The beauty of freedom of religion is that you’re free to make your own decision. Why then do so many insist on attacking the faith of others who also enjoy that same freedom? If you don’t like the rules of the club, don’t join.

And my last point: the fact that one may know many protestants who are way better Christians than most Catholics proves nothing about the validity of the catholic faith. The faith stands pure and beautiful… and will till the end of time. The failure of humans to learn it and live it adequately is a sign of our weakness and spiritual laziness. The only thing that will change that is a return to vibrant orthodoxy- one that sets people on fire for Jesus.

 

[Roger_Wissinger]

Christ’s church is perfect; the people in it are not. By some of these posts we can see that liberalism in the church is not dead. I don’t have the time to read all the posts but they lose me when they repeat the same thing over and over again. Oh, I’ll never turn off Mother Angelica. Some of our members might need to start turning her on instead of finding things to complain about the Catholic Church.

 

[ToddM]

Why do so many critics of the church ( i.e. Skyryder) act as if priestly celibacy is somehow “imposed” upon some poor unsuspecting sap who had no idea this was part of the job description. It is clear from scripture that refraining from marriage is a higher calling:

**"His disciples said to him, “If that is the case it is better not to marry.” He answered, “Not all can accept this word, but **only those to whom it has been granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.” (Matt. 19:10-12)

**Oooh, quoting scripture, well, fine then. I suppose next you’re going to resort to one of those rational arguments. **

Celibacy is a gift given to some. It is a grace… not all receive it. It enables the person to be focused on the work of the Kingdom. Those that have the calling know what it entails. No one spings this on them on ordination day. Seminarians have years and years to change their minds. No one is forcing them to accept the call.

**Tin foil scapular, just in case **

I suspect that the reason there are so many openly gay priests and bishops is because they entered the priesthood at a time when being gay was not acceptable in society. Don’t you mean active/practicing? I mean, I feel you but just because a priest is gay, disordered or not, to expect a priest to never have to struggle with anything personal seems a bit nutty, please correct me if you disagreeI don’t think everyone who is a priest had a genuine calling. Perhaps they never intended to live a celibate life. It is sad that this happens sometimes. In other eras, it was expected that at least one son would enter the priesthood. Family pressure may have replaced a genuine calling in those circumstances.

As I have said earlier, this is not a reason that the Catholic Church will become “extinct.” She will never become extinct. In every age, she will be there, proudly being the standard-bearer of truth. If you think liberalism makes for a more robust Christianity, look only to the Espicopalian Church, where anything and everything goes. They are not growing, but dying away. Apparently the liberal reforms you suggest are not the answer.

When Christianity liberalizes itself to conform to the culture, it becomes no different than the culture, and therefore becomes irrelevent. If anything and everything is true and creative and special, than nothing is. Nothing is “holy,” which means “set apart.” If nothing is holy, why go to church? I can worship at home.

Another point: sexual misconduct/ abuse/ statutory rape is epidemic in schools (teacher/student). This is the case even though there is no celibacy rule for teachers. Where is the outcry there? The case that celibacy is unnatural for men may be true… but grace is supernatural. It can make what is humanly impossible POSSIBLE.

one more point… if you don’t like the rules of the Catholic faith, no one is forcing you to live by them. The beauty of freedom of religion is that you’re free to make your own decision. Why then do so many insist on attacking the faith of others who also enjoy that same freedom? If you don’t like the rules of the club, don’t join.

Because of the War, not a war, The War

And my last point: the fact that one may know many protestants who are way better Christians **How do we gauge that anyway? Isn’t positive judgment still judgement? **than most Catholics proves nothing about the validity of the catholic faith. The faith stands pure and beautiful… and will till the end of time. The failure of humans to learn it and live it adequately is a sign of our weakness and spiritual laziness. The only thing that will change that is a return to vibrant orthodoxy- one that sets people on fire for Jesus.

Rock on. If I may add, and please correct this frequently erroneous person if and when needed…

1. Priests are married, to the Church.
   pulls the pin and…
2. Everyone else has the same rights of marriage. We can all, once of age, be married to a person of the opposite sex. In other words, marriage.

 

[ToddM]

ToddM;3725387:

Same perosn cut-n-pasting from different sites.

Maybe, but maybe SR just put a lot of effort into something. If so, preesh. At least the positions are being clarified somewhat. Gotta give credit if and when it is due.

Just in case though, might wanna cite *if *due to another.

 

[skyryder]

There is nothing “liberal” about Catholicism. Catholicism and liberalism are like oil and water. Anyone who trys to mix things like modernism, feminism , abortion, etc simply because a schismatic and heretic by church default. Their “fight” is a lost cause, since they are fighting against God. In fact churches that give in to secular pressure are a good sign that that Church is not lead by the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit is firm in its truth and does not budge no matter how much liberals pressure people.

I think it would be real interesting for Conservatives to tell Liberals like me how they think the Future Catholic Church should look like. I think it must be a cross between The Baltimore Cathecism (1894) and The Bells of St Mary (1945). HERE IS A CHALLENGE: PRETEND IT IS THE YEAR 2108 AND WRITE A PARAGRAPH OR TWO DESCRIBING A CATHOLIC MASS WILL LOOK LIKE. Explain reasons for your beliefs. Put up or shut up!

 

[ToddM]

I think it would be real interesting for Conservatives to tell Liberals like me how they think the Future Catholic Church should look like. I think it must be a cross between The Baltimore Cathecism (1894) and The Bells of St Mary (1945). HERE IS A CHALLENGE: PRETEND IT IS THE YEAR 2108 AND WRITE A PARAGRAPH OR TWO DESCRIBING A CATHOLIC MASS WILL LOOK LIKE. Explain reasons for your beliefs. Put up or shut up!

You got me. I can’t even get 100% positive ID on one now. Why is that?

I also don’t even know what is going to happen tomorrow. Seems like someone said I wasn’t to try either. Do it anyway, shame.

This fictional scenario is based on the supposition that there will *be * a 2108. I wonder if there will be a tomorrow.

Interesting exercise however.

 

[Swan]

I think conservatives need to focus less on rules and more on who God really is. If God is a reasoning, loving, and freeing person…then some of the crazy ideas advanced by the Catholic Right need to be reconsidered.

Would a God who designed a balanced eco system promote unlimited population growth? No…so Humane Vitae’s ban on birth control is wrong.

Would a rational and loving God predispose some people to be gay deep in the core of their being, and then damn them for expressing love, or seeking a life long partner? Doesn’t seem reasonable.

Would a God say priests can marry in Paul’s Letters to Timothy and then ban it years later. If God can’t lie, perhaps self appointed leaders do, for selfish ends.
.
Would a reasoning God give liberty and deny it’s use in free speech or exploration of new ideas without censorhip?

Would a loving God allow Crusades, and Inquistion to punish enemies or people a Church doen’t like? I thought Scripture said
Love your enemies and do good to persecutors.

Would a God create all men as equals and then deny that equality in the form of a dictatorial church government? No again.

If only God is infallible (because he is infinite) there is no way a finite man can be infallible by definition.

Like many Catholics I feel the church’s position on abortion, in vitro fertilization and stem cell research needs to be updated to square with scientific fact. Is a single living cell a person? No way.
This is all or nothing thinking and is a classical sign of neurosis.
Please remember that quickening was looked at as the time of ensoulment by the Ancient Church, prior to that no soul.

Would a creative God give men artistic, musical or literary gifts and then ban them from worship because the Pope doesn’t like them. Seems contrary to his nature.

The conservatives need to rething their credo from the ground up.

 

[Swan]

LIBERAL:
equaLity
justIce
liBerty
coexistEnce
tRuth
peAce
ecoLogy

 

[JudieK]

I HERE IS A CHALLENGE: PRETEND IT IS THE YEAR 2108 AND WRITE A PARAGRAPH OR TWO DESCRIBING A CATHOLIC MASS WILL LOOK LIKE. Explain reasons for your beliefs. Put up or shut up!

Excuse me? So we have to do your “assignment” or we have to shut up? Why? Are you the moderator of the thread?

 

[JudieK]

One thing I can say… the Church has been around for 2000 years. The mass has changed somewhat, to be sure, but the main elements are still there… the prayers of the angels ( Holy, Holy, Holy) the Gloria, etc. Catholics do not live their daily lives stuck in some timewarp ( akin to the Amish). We live in the age we are born in… we are modern people. Our churches have electricity and sound systems and the like. We listen to Contemporary Christian music (outside of mass), we have Bible studies, small group faith-sharing, CYO trips to Laser-Tron. We use the internet and radio and TV to evangelize and broadcast the Good News. The Church doesn’t say we must live as they did in the Middle Ages! What HASN’T changed, thanks be to God, is the truth that the Church proclaims. It if did, it wouldn’t have been the truth in the first place. The mass is a holy event- when the veil between heaven and earth opens, and God himself comes down to become our very food. The very nature of this event demands reverence and awe and respect. Every generation, even the current one, can and should learn to show this kind of reverence, even if it involves stepping out of one’s comfort zone. Everyone seems to think we need to be more relaxed and casual in all areas of life, and presumably at Mass as well. WRONG! This is one place that demands reverence. It’s kind of like education, where everything gets “dumbed down” to the lowest common denominator. Why shouldn’t we be able to expect more from ourselves than this?!?

 

[estesbob]

I think it would be real interesting for Conservatives to tell Liberals like me how they think the Future Catholic Church should look like. I think it must be a cross between The Baltimore Cathecism (1894) and The Bells of St Mary (1945). HERE IS A CHALLENGE: PRETEND IT IS THE YEAR 2108 AND WRITE A PARAGRAPH OR TWO DESCRIBING A CATHOLIC MASS WILL LOOK LIKE. Explain reasons for your beliefs. Put up or shut up!

I supect it will look much the same as it does now. -the same as it has for the last 2,000 years.

Next question.

 

[catharina]

Is Liberal Catholicism Dead?

As long as Joan Chittister, Donna Quinn, Theresa Kane and others of their ilk are supported, fed and housed as American “Sisters,” it would be difficult to imagine that Liberal Catholicism is dead. These three women, in three separate communities, bray their support of abortion, women’s ordination and the like - yet they are accorded a home among the Benedictine Sisters of Erie, the Sinsinawa Dominicans and the Religious Sisters of Mercy. That is certainly a tragedy for those communities of religious women and for the Church at large.

 

[ToddM]

One thing I can say… the Church has been around for 2000 years. ***Exept some are saying that it has not been, or has gone underground, is invisible. As a result now everyone is either looking for, or represents the ‘true church’. In other words, if you pardon, ‘mass confusion’, and lies. Old Nick must be rolling on the floor, for now. ***The mass has changed somewhat, ***Not to differ needlessly but, do we ‘change’ scripture when we translate it?. I’m still trying to see what the real bounds are, no liturgy expert here.***to be sure, but the main elements are still there… the prayers of the angels ( Holy, Holy, Holy) the Gloria, etc. Catholics do not live their daily lives stuck in some timewarp ***Hard to fairly say what they are about. We get painted with some pretty crazy strokes and colors. Perhaps we should be very careful/charitable in areas like this. *** ( akin to the Amish). We live in the age we are born in… we are modern people. Our churches have electricity and sound systems and the like. We listen to Contemporary Christian music (outside of mass), we have Bible studies, small group faith-sharing, CYO trips to Laser-Tron. We use the internet and radio and TV to evangelize and broadcast the Good News. The Church doesn’t say we must live as they did in the Middle Ages! What HASN’T changed, thanks be to God, is the truth that the Church proclaims. Maybe some of the confusion lies in some thinking that, like a translation, the expression of this truth may need to be reformulated. I dunno. It if did, it wouldn’t have been the truth in the first place. The mass is a holy event- when the veil between heaven and earth opens, and God himself comes down to become our very food. The very nature of this event demands reverence and awe and respect. Every generation, even the current one, can and should learn to show this kind of reverence, even if it involves stepping out of one’s comfort zone. Everyone seems to think we need to be more relaxed and casual in all areas of life, and presumably at Mass as well. Disciple=DisciplineWRONG! This is one place that demands reverence. It’s kind of like education, where everything gets “dumbed down” to the lowest common denominator. Why shouldn’t we be able to expect more from ourselves than this?!?

Because some/most of us haven’t mastered the basics (me too) and now we see some of the results. Catechesis and Scripture.

 

[Filius99993]

LIBERAL:
equaLity
justIce
liBerty
coexistEnce
tRuth
peAce
ecoLogy

LIBERAL

Licentious
Idealistic
Belligerent
Egregious (at times)
Refutable
Asinine
Libidinous

but I still don’t think Conservatism’s any better!

Consider this: TRUTH is reached only through the Christ and the Church. NOT any political views. And to say liberalism is peaceful … consider the 20% of pregnancies that end up aborted in this country. 20%! That pretty much throws the Justice aspect out the window. And the Equality aspect. True, coexistence is desirable. But conservatives do the same thing. As a Christian, and as a Catholic, we are CALLED not to coexist with, but to LOVE people of all faiths, races, stages of life, etc. It’s got nothing to do with liberalism at all.

 

[ToddM]

LIBERAL

Licentious
Idealistic
Belligerent
Egregious (at times)
Refutable
Asinine
Libidinous

but I still don’t think Conservatism’s any better!

Consider this: TRUTH is reached only through the Christ and the Church. NOT any political views. And to say liberalism is peaceful … consider the 20% of pregnancies that end up aborted in this country. 20%! That pretty much throws the Justice aspect out the window. And the Equality aspect. True, coexistence is desirable. But conservatives do the same thing. As a Christian, and as a Catholic, we are CALLED not to coexist with, but to LOVE people of all faiths, races, stages of life, etc. It’s got nothing to do with liberalism at all.

That’s all well and good if you are ‘into’ that whole clarity truth thing.

Seriously, it is rather easy to stray/be led away. Nice reality check.

However, not to offend anyone, perhaps I should put a disclaimer.

I mean ‘your’ reality and ‘your’ truth.

There, that’s ‘better.’

 

[goofyjim]

While we’re all bickering back and forth with judgements about liberalism vs. conservatism, try to remember St. James said mercy triumphs over judgement. Mercy is the on constant theme throughout the history of the Jewish people and Christianity. Otherwise this little globe would have been tossed into the sun many eons ago. And mercy continues. Or it should. I have no expectation of mercy from Jesus if I do not practice it here first.

 

[Mystic_of_God]

LIBERAL:
equaLity
justIce
liBerty
coexistEnce
tRuth
peAce
ecoLogy

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: Worship the Liberal!

Come on, people. Liberal Catholicism was never alive. Heck, it wasn’t even Catholicism. Play ball or yer’ out!