Is Liberal Catholicism Dead?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Filius99993
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I think the issue here is whether we are worshiping the small minded narrow God of Josef Ratzinger
Funny. When I read Ratzinger, I get a sense of great open spaces and mighty winds of freedom and grace. I have never read a theologian who had less of a “small-minded, narrow God,” Based on what theological works of Ratzinger are you making this statement?
and the Office of the Inquistion or something which is closer to the really big God as revealed in Science.
Again, we see things very differently. Aside from the fact that many modern scientists are atheists, I don’t see modern science revealing a “bigger” God than Catholic theology. Quite the reverse. Any God who would be revealed by modern science (solely or primarily) would be a very limited God.
I can’t think of a single thing that Pope Benedict has done which in any way reflects the freeing message of Jesus. In the words of St Augustine: " Love and do as you may."
Of course, St. Augustine also said that the highest freedom was to love God so much that you were unable to do anything contrary to His will (“non posse peccare”).
The conservative extremism of the Pope is confounding. Ratzinger new book on Jesus Christ or his letter: Deus Caritas Est show he is a man who neither understands the Person of God, or the Nature of Love. The Pope’s refusal to allow creative worship is an insult to both laity and Our Maker.
What do you mean by “creative worship,” and where in his book on Jesus or his encyclical on love does he forbid this? I would like to see more openness to different styles of liturgy (though I’d also like to see the Catholic Church embrace more fully its high culture, and on that score I agree entirely with the Pope). But if progressive Catholicism had managed to produce some beautiful and truly imaginative liturgy in the past forty years, the traditionalist backlash might never have occurred. And I have yet to hear of any serious crackdown, but I admit that I’m not as much in touch with these things as I once was (I do still go to Mass occasionally, but the churches here in Huntington, IN are fairly conservative).
Evolve or go extinct.
Oh, the Catholic Church evolves plenty. Just not necessarily in the ways you dictate.

Edwin
 
😛
Reading your blog, I think the only answer to deal with Liberal Conservative issues is schism. Yes the CONSERVATIVES caused the pedophile scandal, by not allowing priests to marry as they are explicitly told to do so in Timothy leads to perversion. Ditto for Bishops. Celibacy is not the will of God
 
My mom made a good point today, she was saying our bishop said we need to move away from saying liberal and conservative to saying non-orthodox and orthodox. Seems to get the point across pretty good to me.

Hey, does anybody else here wish they had an ignor button on this site?
 
Yes the CONSERVATIVES caused the pedophile scandal, by not allowing priests to marry as they are explicitly told to do so in Timothy leads to perversion.
Do you realize that the far majority of pedophiles and sexual predators are married or in a committed relationship? Do you realize that a lot of sexually based crimes have nothing to do with sex and more with power and control issues? Your point is not supported by the facts…
 
I can also posts a bunch of the laws the liberal politicians in my state and in the USA have overturned, refused to put in place, reduced, etc, in regards to sexually based crimes such as rape, molestation, etc… It will show you who REALLY is watching out for the vicitms.
 
My mom made a good point today, she was saying our bishop said we need to move away from saying liberal and conservative to saying non-orthodox and orthodox. Seems to get the point across pretty good to me.

Hey, does anybody else here wish they had an ignor button on this site?
Abso-flippin-lutely. ‘Enabling’, ‘coddling’ and over-indulgence are not charitable. Nor is it charitable to let wolves prowl on sheep.
 
Now it’s time to say good night.
Good night, sleep tight.
Now the sun turns out its light.
Good night sleep tight.

Dream sweet dreams for you.
Dream sweet dreams for me.
 
Abso-flippin-lutely. ‘Enabling’, ‘coddling’ and over-indulgence are not charitable. Nor is it charitable to let wolves prowl on sheep.
I think it makes people feel better about themselves or something. What is the saying about giving a person a fishing pole and teaching them how to fish? It is a lot more servicing then just giving them the fish. IMHO
 
I think it makes people feel better about themselves or something. What is the saying about giving a person a fishing pole and teaching them how to fish? It is a lot more servicing then just giving them the fish. IMHO
Seems like the problem comes when…
a) we don’t really want fish
b) we want to say the fish is a dog
c) we think we can tell the people who do like fish that they shouldn’t, or that they should do strange things with the fish.
d) We want the fish, but we feel we have the right to dictate terms to the person giving us the fish, instead of taking what he gives us.
e) we are starving to death, and will eat whatever anyone gives us, even poison, especially if it ‘tastes good’
f) we beat the fish thing to death and get boo…
 
Oh, the Catholic Church evolves plenty. Just not necessarily in the ways you dictate.
I have never heard it better explained than that. People tend to forget that the Church is an institution of God, rather than of man. When we get the idea that we can skewer it towards our own biased opinions (not that it isn’t good to have one’s own opinions), we end up with controversies that give our wonderful Church a bad reputation. And it’s not the Church’s fault. It’s ours.
 
I am amazed at how many conservatives have not studied archeology. Large parts of the both the old and new testaments are myth. Despite years of looking Isreali archeologists have found no tangible evidence of the Exodus. Many scholars believe this to be a highly embellished folk tale, with some truth than other stories have been sewn onto. Similarly stories about the conquest of Canaan appear to be questionable. The destruction of Jericho and Ai are written about as if they happened one after the other…when in fact they were several hundred years apart. The New Testament has similar issues. The realationship between the Essenes, the Gnostics and the Early Christians is unclear. The existence of so many pagan mystery religion themes, motifs, and teachings inside the Gospels has yet to be explained. The Bible is a book about God. I am not so sure it is the Word of God because it contradicts itself many times and God cannot be confused. Like all things I think, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.(Which doesn’t exist!) We need to take both the scriptures, and especially Vatican Propaganda and Catechism with a big grain of salt. Think for yourself. Don’t hand your life over to ideologues. Truth fears no questions. Examine your beliefs.
Skyryder, you are using a total irrational argument, and are intentionally obfusciating the issue. What does morality have to do with archeology and ancient myths? Most of of us Catholics do not accept the literal 7-day creation, but that doesn’t mean that we reject the morality of the bible.

Your argument goes like this. The bible says the world was created in 7 days, but science proves that the earth is older than that. Therefore the bible is wrong. Therefore it is OK to murder, because the bible says that murder is wrong.

If there were no objective truth, there would be no truth at all.
 
hey JimsDun. You may not be up to speed. Unless you like beating your head against a wall, I’d be careful getting involved in something that is like a textual black hole. Start tracing back threads. Abandon hope all ye who nibble on this line. Turn back.

It never ends, it never listens, ever.

You were warned.
 
If one reviews church history, we normally alternate between good popes and bad popes.

Conservatives (bad popes) were Piux XII, Paul VI, & perhaps JP1. Progressives (good popes) were John XXIII and JP2.

It is my belief that Joseph Ratzinger (aka God’sRotweiler ) is one of the most oppressive conservatives since Pope Pius XII. One can only hope his reign will be short and the fall out from bad decisions, bullying and thought police tactics won’t cause too much damage!

Creativity, all inclusive love, flexible thinking and a willingness to grow and innovation are the nature of God. The historic person of Jesus was a liberal. ie One who frees. He was not a traditionist, nor a royalist, nor a comma counter. Blind adherence to tradition, conditional or limited love, pettiness, inflexibile thinking and refusal to change is the hallmark of conservatisim, rigor mortis and death. Let us worship the God of the living.

Progressives are the only hope for the church! Shame on extremeist right wing blog. This is the 21st century not the 12th. Lets get on with Liberal Revolution and embrace the Great Commission…
I could not agree with you more. The problems you cite are the reasons I left the Church. Jesus was a rebel and a liberal. He challenged authority. Clearly, he would be excommunicated in today’s Church. 😦
 
I could not agree with you more. The problems you cite are the reasons I left the Church. (please more closely examine those reasons. If you are going to leave, do so for better reasons than these. Easy to tell that you care, and God bless you for it.) Jesus was a rebel and a liberal. (Past tense? Isn’t he, and wasn’t he, and won’t he be, the way, the truth, and the life? )He challenged authority. ( Isn’t HE the author/ity?) Clearly, he would be excommunicated in today’s Church. (What are the wheat and the tares that are to be separated? Wouldn’t a large part of humanity be excommunicated, forever?) 😦
You are on a ship, one that has barnacles, is leaky, and has stow aways, a ship that to all appearances will soon be awash and sink.

However, the captain, who is also the builder, and the master of the elements has assured you numerous times that this ship will make port.

Why do you dive into the storm, even if it is to swim to another, more seemingly seaworthy ship, or to an island that is going nowhere?

God bless. Have a care.
Peace.
 
I could not agree with you more. The problems you cite are the reasons I left the Church. Jesus was a rebel and a liberal. He challenged authority. Clearly, he would be excommunicated in today’s Church. 😦
Left the Church but hangs around Catholic Forums. Hmmmmmmmmmm?
 
I could not agree with you more. The problems you cite are the reasons I left the Church. Jesus was a rebel and a liberal. He challenged authority. Clearly, he would be excommunicated in today’s Church. 😦
**
What circular and erroneous thinking.
To emulate Jesus, you leave His Church?

Jesus was, first and last, an observant Jew.
He challenged evil-doing wherever He found it -
including among those in authority. Rebel? LIBERAL???

Jesus as a liberal?
The notion does not compute.**
 
Funny. When I read Ratzinger, I get a sense of great open spaces and mighty winds of freedom and grace. I have never read a theologian who had less of a “small-minded, narrow God,” Based on what theological works of Ratzinger are you making this statement?

Ratzinger has spent his career persecuting theologians with new ideas, banning books, making nasty speeches about dissenters and being an impediment to progress of any kind in the church. Mighty winds of Freedom and Grace? Great Open Spaces? New Ideas? None of these exist for Benedict the 16th. He is a man imprisioned by tradition and unable to come to terms with the modern world or science.

I think the real issue between Liberals and Conservatives revolves around the issue of church organization. In the days of the early church there was none of the hierarchial nonsense we have today.

The original church was celebrated in peoples homes. It was a love feast followed by stories about Jesus and the breaking of bread. In the first few centuries after Christ, there were no jet planes, telephones, faxes or FEDEX deliveries. It took a long time to travel. More often than not, an apostle or evangelist would visit a City, start a Christian Community and leave.It might be years or decades before another came through. All Christians are priests by Baptism. As such, members of the community took turns consecrating hosts (remember this means calling God’s Presence as only Jesus and not men can change bread and wine into the body and blood) preaching the word, and forgiving sins. There was no formal structure to the mass. It was a highly creative form of worship that varied from place to place. Early Christians or Followers of the Way took turns preforming marriages and funerals. The early church was communistic, property was shared and members mutually helped eachother.

In later times, when the Gospels started to be written, the presider (later presbyters or priests) needed to be someone who could read (most ancients didn’t) and a school was established to train presiders, This was the beginning of a formal clergy. Prior to this time all teachers were home trained and often helped set up branch or distributed churches around the founding home in a city. The original Christians ALWAYS elected their priests, bishops, and patriarchs (later called Popes), and sat on ALL Ecumenical Councils. Males and feamles were equals in Christain Communities. Teachers or clergy were normally married with children and had other professions besides being the head of a local group of Christians. House churches had worship in the language of the people, communion tables facing the congregaton. statutes, reliciquaries and tabernacles didn’t exist.

At the time of Constantine the Laity’s Role was given to the Emperor and Nobles. Democracy and a communal sharing of property threatened the Emperor, so all churches were funded by the government via taxation and all clergy became political hacks or appointees. This was the beginning of formal mysterous liturgies, imperial art, superstition, luxurious living for top clergy and corrpution within the Church. Peter the fisherman wouldn’t be caught dead in silk gowns, gold slippers, lace vestments with pearls, rings with golf ball size jewels or pointy hats.The original mass was never meant to be preformed before idols or pagan altars yet this is exactly what happened in places like the Parthenon & Pantheon. Christ would have been scandalized.

At the time of the Council of Nicea, a formal Church Organization was set up with 4 heads of the Church in Alexandria, Rome, Constantinope, and Antioch all under control of the Emperor. There was no Supreme Pontiff. Original gospels & histories were rewritten to justify the establishment of a State Religion and end dissent. All pagan religions were destroyed and competing forms of non approved Christianty eg Ebonites & Gnostics suppressed. The burning of libraries and closing of pagan universities plunged Europe into a dark age that took more than 1000 years to recover from.

As the empire declined the 4 equal heads of the church quarreled and split apart. Pope in Rome became a poliical leader and king who challenged the Emperor. Misinterpretation of scripture,
& forged documents such as the Donation of Constantine or the Iberian Decretals were used to justify creation of the Modern Papacy. This eventually lead to the Great Schism.

Papal Claims of continuing succession from Peter are ingenuous, as there have been many anitpopes, periods without popes, bad popes and even lists of fake popes from Ebusius. There have been many breaks in the line of suceesion in both Roman and Orthodox Churches. Apostolic succession comes from the only continous line of faith in existance: which is Laity. As such, in our Roman Catholic Church the relationship between Laity and Clergy is that of Employer and Employee, not Serf and Fuedal Lord. A Council of Laity, not the Pope or Synod of Bishops is the ultimate governing authority in the Universal Church - this was firmly established by the Council of Constance. Because Laity and not Clergy is the source of Apostolic Succession - ALL Christian denominations have equal stature in the eyes of God and are ALL valid.

Laity has never lost its rights to elect priests, bishops or popes. In times of persecution, women priests in the Greek Catholic Church have been validly ordained clergy by action of Laity when no Bishop was present. Same for communities in India and China. In times of war, when a soldier is dying on the battlefield ordinary christians in the Orthodox Rite can hear confession and grant absolution. This was common practise as well in the Western Church up until around 1000 when the sacrament of penance was invented in monestaries. Confessionals are an invention of Late Gothic Architecture they never existed prior.

All problems within the Catholic or Universal Church stem from self appointed clergy refusing to listen to their superiors ie. laity.
Conservatives embrace the false Monarchial Organization of the Imperial Church. Liberals embrace the true Democratic Organization of the Early Church.

Ratzinger may well be one of the last popes. Infallibility, a questionable innovation of Vatican I (due to lack of quorum) is putting the Western Church in a position where it cannot escape past errors, bad policy or wholesale mismanagement and adapt to modern times. In such a situation, either the papacy is abolished or the church goes. extinct. It is my belief that the Holy Spirit is calling the Universal Church to abolish both the Roman Curia and Tradition, merge with Protestant & Orthodox Faiths, free itself from years of infighting and start anew proclaiming the Message of Christ worldwide. The conservatives need to acknowledge that the center and leader of our faith is Jesus not the Papacy, the Holy See or set of dogma & rules.:bowdown2:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top