Is LifeSiteNews anti-Francis?

[Annie]

Strawman argument. The bishop said no funerals for people in a same-sex marriage unless they showed some sign of repentance. This is a far cry from what you said: “telling parishes not to give LGBTQ Catholics a Christian funeral.”

 

[Annie]

So, you think that saying LGBTQ people probably have some form of mental illness and therefore should have Catholic funerals is a good argument?

(I am not arguing against LGBTQ people having Catholic funerals, btw.)

 

[MidwestGuy]

About funerals? I think it falls into the same category as suicide. That was once a reason to deny a person funeral rites. Today, most people would find that to be cruel. I think the same case can be made for LGBTQ Catholics, and if anyone is going to make such a case, you can bet NCR will print it.

I actually read what the Bishop stated and not what NCR’s take on it was. I remember reading this back when IL made same sex marriage legal. Here is an article on it with a Q&A with Bishop Paprocki.

https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2017/06/28/bishop-paprocki-responds-to-controversy-criticisms-over-decree-on-same-sex-marriage/

 

[MidwestGuy]

He does hold a law degree and a canon law degree:

In May, the Most Rev. Thomas Paprocki, Bishop of Springfield, Ill., became the first member of the hierarchy to earn a graduate degree from the Mendoza College.

The Chicago native, who already holds a law degree from DePaul University and a canon law degree from Rome’s Pontifical Gregorian University, says he’d been intrigued with the potential of business education even before he began taking Executive MBA program classes twice a month at Mendoza’s Chicago Commons center on Michigan Avenue in 2011.Preformatted text

 

[Luke6_37]

I have no issue with “ants in the pants of the establishment” because that’s what Raymond Arroyo at EWTN is doing now (and what Mother Angelica did from time to time).

Holding clergy accountable is totally fine.

What’s not fine is promoting heresy, like women priests, birth control, etc.

The issue I have with NCR is because they allow (if not promote) heretical articles, it makes me question them when they write something that is true (like busting a corrupt member of the Roman Curia).

Therefore, I don’t trust them because they are OK with being a dissent publication.

NOTE: “dissent” doesn’t mean they fight with individual Bishops or the USCCB (again, I’m fine with holding bishops accountable), “dissent” means they publicly object to / disagree with select Doctrines & Dogma of the Catholic faith.

God Bless

What dogmas does NCR challenge? So far, none of your examples rise to that level. What the Church teaches with respect to female ordination, birth control and LGBTQ relationships have not been dogmatically defined.

However, what has been dogmatically defined is that the Pope possesses full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, not merely in matters of faith and morals, but also in Church discipline and in the government of the Church.

By producing hit pieces on the Pope, Raymond Arroyo at EWTN is undermining the legitimacy of Pope Francis and actively challenging the teaching authority of the Bishop of Rome, who is the successor of Peter and who has his Primacy over the whole Church and for all time.

I consider this to be far worse than anything NCR publishes. It is one thing to give voice to marginalized Catholics who question the current interpretation of church doctrines that have never been formally defined, but it is a far worse thing to deny the teaching authority of the Magisterium.

 

[Luke6_37]

So, you think that saying LGBTQ people probably have some form of mental illness and therefore should have Catholic funerals is a good argument?

(I am not arguing against LGBTQ people having Catholic funerals, btw.)

There are reasons other than mental illness that would mitigate the sinfulness of a action. We simply do not know enough about LGBTQ psychology to make that kind of judgement. I think most reasonable Bishops would trust the person’s soul to God’s mercy and not assume they are going to hell.

 

[Annie]

However, that is the reason suicides are no longer forbidden a Catholic funeral.

Second, the reason that some are denied Catholic funerals is that they persisted until death in manifest (“clear or obvious to the eye or mind”) sin i.e., public sin. It is not a declaration that the person in question is going to hell as the Church does not do that.

And if you think NCR will go down that road, I think you are not at all familiar with them.

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

About funerals? I think it falls into the same category as suicide. That was once a reason to deny a person funeral rites. Today, most people would find that to be cruel. I think the same case can be made for LGBTQ Catholics, and if anyone is going to make such a case, you can bet NCR will print it.

I actually read what the Bishop stated and not what NCR’s take on it was. I remember reading this back when IL made same sex marriage legal. Here is an article on it with a Q&A with Bishop Paprocki.

http://www.catholicworldreport.com/...-criticisms-over-decree-on-same-sex-marriage/

Michael Sean Winters of NCR does not say Bishop Paprocki lacks authority to issue his decree. He just says they its terrible and for that reason the bishop should be sacked. I doubt that will happen. I also doubt Bishop Paprocki will ever be made a Cardinal.

For now, it appears that LGBTQ Catholics are not welcome in the Springfield diocese and are better off moving to Chicago where they may find a place in the Church under the authority of Cardinal Cupich.

 

[Luke6_37]

However, that is the reason suicides are no longer forbidden a Catholic funeral.

Second, the reason that some are denied Catholic funerals is that they persisted until death in manifest (“clear or obvious to the eye or mind”) sin i.e., public sin. It is not a declaration that the person in question is going to hell as the Church does not do that.

Actually, according to Father Edward McNamara a funeral Mass may be denied to manifest sinners to whom a Church funeral cannot be granted without causing public scandal to the faithful.

I think most Catholics believe an LGBTQ person should be given a Church funeral and would be scandalized to hear that this was denied. So really, the decree isn’t based on Canon law at all, but on the Bishops unique authority. That would explain why its only binding in his jurisdiction.

 

[graciew]

What is a Church funeral ?
Burial is typically the morning after the person dies.
Before a person is buried,a priest offers a brief service in the Chapel of the cemmetery …

Never heard of anyone rejected …

 

[Luke6_37]

What is a Church funeral ?
Burial is typically the morning after the person dies.
Before a person is buried,a priest offers a brief service in the Chapel of the cemmetery …

Never heard of anyone rejected …

That’s not how its done at our church. There is usually a wake at a funeral home in the evening and then a funeral Mass at the church the next morning. Then the coffin is taken to the cemetery where there is a brief burial ceremony. Usually a Deacon or lay minister is at the wake & burial if a priest can’t be present. If the person is cremated after the wake, the funeral can be delayed for quite some time. The longest I’ve heard of is a month.

I’ve never heard of anyone being rejected either.

 

[graciew]

Thank you, Luke.
Here the wake is normally held at the home of the person who dies,and relatives and close friends stay with the family . Sometimes,there is a Mass at home especially when the family is very practicing and if there is time.
And the following morning,the burial. And if cremated,there is the service at the cemetery where most of the people attend,and the person who died remains and we all leave. It is more if accompanying and sharing,and it is brief.
Thanks again,Luke.

 

[Luke6_37]

Thank you, Luke.
Here the wake is normally held at the home of the person who dies,and a relatives and close friends stay with the family . Sometimes,there is a Mass at home especailly when the family is very practicing and if there is time.
And the following morning,the burial. And if crmated,there is the service at the cemetery where most of the people attend,and the person who died remains and we all leave. It is more if accompanying and sharing,and it is brief.
Thanks again,Luke

What you describe sounds very intimate and personal. I’d like to go that way.

 

[phil19034]

What dogmas does NCR challenge? So far, none of your examples rise to that level. What the Church teaches with respect to female ordination, birth control and LGBTQ relationships have not been dogmatically defined.

However, what has been dogmatically defined is that the Pope possesses full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, not merely in matters of faith and morals, but also in Church discipline and in the government of the Church.

By producing hit pieces on the Pope, Raymond Arroyo at EWTN is undermining the legitimacy of Pope Francis and actively challenging the teaching authority of the Bishop of Rome, who is the successor of Peter and who has his Primacy over the whole Church and for all time.

I consider this to be far worse than anything NCR publishes. It is one thing to give voice to marginalized Catholics who question the current interpretation of church doctrines that have never been formally defined, but it is a far worse thing to deny the authority of the Magisterium.

1. what the church teaches regarding female ordination, birth control and “LGBTQ” relationships ARE doctrine. They might not be dogmatically defined, but they are DOCTRINE. And some say St. Pope John Paul II did define female ordination as dogma.
2. Again, I’m not going to sit here and defend Raymond Arroyo, but let me ask you this: were you equally critical of NCR when they actively challenged St. Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI? Also, I’ve never once heard Raymond deny the authority of the Pope.
3. Catholic Doctrine cannot be changed - it can only be further defined, but it can’t change. It is doctrine that only men can be ordained, which means that women can never be ordained. It is BIBLICAL that homosexual acts are sinful, therefore it is doctrine & dogma that homosexual acts are sinful. And birth control has been against Catholic teaching for 2000 years, Pope Paul VI confirmed that and applied over 1900 years of teaching to the pill. So that’s at least doctrine too.
4. Finally, the people who are criticizing the Pope’s advisers are criticizing their view on changing discipline, which is valid because discipline is often based on Dogma and Doctrine.

God Bless

 

[Annie]

And since funerals are denied only to those who persist in manifest sin, in this case, those in same-sex marriages who do not repent before death, there is no problem.

 

[graciew]

It is a person who dies and a family who asks for this service or funeral …how many of us could say that we are fully aware of how much harm,pain,we have caused by thought,deed and/or omission?
We repent to the extent we are aware,but with a shot of honesty,how aware are we and how deeply ?
It is the ultimate mercy one asks for.

 

[pnewton]

Regardless, if you don’t like Raymond Arroyo, that’s fine. But to say he and EWTN are promoting schism is simply not true.

How far an apostolate can go is precisely the reason that a Catholic ministry is Catholic. EWTN is under the authority of the local bishop. It is he, not each individually, who say how far is too far to be Catholic. In the case of Raymond Arroyo, if correction is needed, at least there is a structure in place for correction. If an individual does not agree, then the option still remains to flip the channel, cancel EWTN, write them, etc.

An organization like NCR or LSN can write any crazy thing they want; promote heresy, attack the Church, align with political positions, or do any work of the devil, with impunity.

 

[pnewton]

So far, none of your examples rise to that level. What the Church teaches with respect to female ordination, birth control and LGBTQ relationships have not been dogmatically defined.

The first has been defined. The last two are still doctrine and Catholics who reject Catholic doctrine are not being Catholic. And we are back to the point that NCR may be a site about Catholics, but that does not make it a Catholic site.

 

[Annie]

Do you think if a Catholic dies alone on a desert island, the lack of a funeral Mass will affect how God judges him?

 

[graciew]

No.
But we are not talking about Robinson Crusoe anf fiction,are we?