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Jim_Baur
Guest
Concerning “saved through grace by faith,” I have often thought that the word faith here is Jesus Christ.
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ryanoneil
Guest
I couldn’t think of the verse earlier.
for we walk by faith, not by sight. (2 Cor 5:7)
for we walk by faith, not by sight. (2 Cor 5:7)
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Jim_Baur
Guest
Concerning walking by faith, Paul says that we walk in love.
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James_S_Saint
Guest
Love is dedicated support.
Logic supports existence and is the very cause of it. It can validly be said that Logic loves existence. But the love of life is a different issue. Logic only loves life when that life is devoted to rationality. The irrational is that which does not support. God does not love the life that worships the irrational, “have no gods before me”.
God is the support of what is, existence. Thus God is love itself.
When people love each other in dedication and rationality, they emulate God’s love and gain the fruits of such love, such support. “Where two or more gather in my name, I am there.” God is in the dedicated and rational support between people. “You know my people by the love they have for each other.”
The issue that Man has had is one of knowing exactly how to love each other. Man attempts many things in the effort to survive disregarding love. He attempts to love one by sacrificing another, many others. He attempts to ensure his own life by sacrificing the lives of others. He worships principles that are irrational although not appearing to be irrational to him. He creates evil so as to be seen as the good deserving support and love – the “Original Sin”.
Such a method of existing is largely self-supporting and thus “god-like” and lasting for many generations, a curse upon the generations of Man as evil is supported in the name of need and its support.
Jesus proposed to resolve this issue of creating evil for sake of maintaining life, by each devoting themselves to each other, to love all, even their presumed enemies, even at the cost of themselves. With such a sacrifice, evil cannot support itself any longer. The curse is broken.
But exactly how to achieve such total love was never taught; only that it breaks the curse upon Man.
The issue today and for every generation is not whether to love, but how to love, how to support, how to maintain existence of life without taking life. Thus Man returns to the notion that he must create evil to support the life of some at the expense of others. He isn’t listening for God’s answer. He believes that he is being as rational as he can be. He doesn’t know how to pray for the answer to how to love without creating evil. The answer is there. He just gives up to temptation too easily. He lacks in Logic. He lacks in understanding God.
Logic supports existence and is the very cause of it. It can validly be said that Logic loves existence. But the love of life is a different issue. Logic only loves life when that life is devoted to rationality. The irrational is that which does not support. God does not love the life that worships the irrational, “have no gods before me”.
God is the support of what is, existence. Thus God is love itself.
When people love each other in dedication and rationality, they emulate God’s love and gain the fruits of such love, such support. “Where two or more gather in my name, I am there.” God is in the dedicated and rational support between people. “You know my people by the love they have for each other.”
The issue that Man has had is one of knowing exactly how to love each other. Man attempts many things in the effort to survive disregarding love. He attempts to love one by sacrificing another, many others. He attempts to ensure his own life by sacrificing the lives of others. He worships principles that are irrational although not appearing to be irrational to him. He creates evil so as to be seen as the good deserving support and love – the “Original Sin”.
Such a method of existing is largely self-supporting and thus “god-like” and lasting for many generations, a curse upon the generations of Man as evil is supported in the name of need and its support.
Jesus proposed to resolve this issue of creating evil for sake of maintaining life, by each devoting themselves to each other, to love all, even their presumed enemies, even at the cost of themselves. With such a sacrifice, evil cannot support itself any longer. The curse is broken.
But exactly how to achieve such total love was never taught; only that it breaks the curse upon Man.
The issue today and for every generation is not whether to love, but how to love, how to support, how to maintain existence of life without taking life. Thus Man returns to the notion that he must create evil to support the life of some at the expense of others. He isn’t listening for God’s answer. He believes that he is being as rational as he can be. He doesn’t know how to pray for the answer to how to love without creating evil. The answer is there. He just gives up to temptation too easily. He lacks in Logic. He lacks in understanding God.
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spockrates
Guest
Agreed. God is love because He is perfectly loving and the one who enables you and me to love with the power to love that He provides.
By saying God is the source of all, I gather you agree that God is not just the source of the virtue of Love, but also the virtues of Justice and Wisdom. I think you are saying that you agree that God is Justice, because He is perfectly just and the one who enables you and me to be just by revealing what is just to us. And I’m pretty sure you also agree that God is Wisdom, because He is perfectly wise and the one who enables you and me to be wise by revealing His wisdom to us.
In other words, God is the source of all virtue in you or me–whether it be Love, Justice, or Wisdom. For He Himself is Love and Justice and Wisdom, by which we mean that He is perfect in His, and providing for our, virtues of love, justice and wisdom.
It’s interesting (don’t you think?) that God is three persons in one God, and He is also the source of three virtues in one God. For, it seems to me, all other virtues fall into one of these three categories–Love, Justice, or Wisdom. And while Love influences Justice and Wisdom, I suppose that Wisdom also influences Justice and Love.
Do you think our thinking is correct thus far, or do you see something that we have not yet considered?
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spockrates
Guest
Thank you, James, for pointing that out. I suppose that the opening post was designed to get get others curious (some people just love a good controversy)!
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spockrates
Guest
Good point, Ryan!
That *is *the purpose of Faith, I suppose. I mean, without Faith, we could not love the God we do not see; could we? I love the way the first Pope puts it:
These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
(1 Peter 1:7-9)
Yes, indeed! Faith makes Love possible. Without it, how could we love a God we don’t see? How can we love anyone we don’t know?
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spockrates
Guest
Yes, good passage, that!
Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
(2 Corinthians 5:6-10)
Do you think, though, that even though we don’t see with our eyes the face of Jesus, we do see Him some other way? Or do you think Faith is a kind of blindness?
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spockrates
Guest
Yes, Jim, I suppose we are to do both. We are to walk in love, because Jesus tells us:
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
(John 13:34-35)
(BTW, interesting that chapter 13 is a kind of love chapter in both St. John’s gospel and St. Paul’s 1st letter to the Corinthians.)
We also walk by faith, as Jesus said:
“I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
(John 11:25-26)
And I suppose we also walk by wisdom, for our Lord also asks us:
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?”
(Luke 6:46)
Without all of these virtues–Faith, Love and Wisdom–I suppose we would not have what it takes to walk as Jesus did. To work to increase one, and neglect the other two, is like trying to run a marathon with only one leg! After all, Jesus used all three virtues to their greatest capacity, didn’t He? Perhaps, then, St. John’s advice applies to all three virtues in you and me:
Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
(1 John 2:6)
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spockrates
Guest
Hey, JSS, good to see you, again! Don’t have time to thoughtfully read and answer your post, but I intend to do so later.
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spockrates
Guest
Great thoughts, everyone! Thanks for helping me think this thing through. Does everyone think we’re right in saying there are five classes, or categories of virtue–Love, Faith, Hope, Justice and Wisdom? Does it sound correct that all other virtues are examples of one of these five kinds? If this is accurate, then all other virtues are lesser than these, and we only need to consider which of these five is the greatest, most important, and most desirable of them all.
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spockrates
Guest
Well said, Saint! Yes, I suppose Love itself does not know how to go about loving!
Would you say, then, that Love needs both Wisdom and Faith to guide her?
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JRKH
Guest
Yes, I think that this thinking is correct - so long as we also recognize that any thought, any word, any way in which we attempt to describe God will fall short of His true nature. The infinite and Glorious God cannot be confined within any way by our puny intellect.Agreed. God is love because He is perfectly loving and the one who enables you and me to love with the power to love that He provides.
By saying God is the source of all, I gather you agree that God is not just the source of the virtue of Love, but also the virtues of Justice and Wisdom. I think you are saying that you agree that God is Justice, because He is perfectly just and the one who enables you and me to be just by revealing what is just to us. And I’m pretty sure you also agree that God is Wisdom, because He is perfectly wise and the one who enables you and me to be wise by revealing His wisdom to us.
In other words, God is the source of all virtue in you or me–whether it be Love, Justice, or Wisdom. For He Himself is Love and Justice and Wisdom, by which we mean that He is perfect in His, and providing for our, virtues of love, justice and wisdom.
It’s interesting (don’t you think?) that God is three persons in one God, and He is also the source of three virtues in one God. For, it seems to me, all other virtues fall into one of these three categories–Love, Justice, or Wisdom. And while Love influences Justice and Wisdom, I suppose that Wisdom also influences Justice and Love.
Do you think our thinking is correct thus far, or do you see something that we have not yet considered?
Not only is our intellect too small to grasp the Glory of God, we are also subject misunderstanding what we do grasp. by this I mean that when we try to describe to each other the attributes of God such as Love, Wisdom, etc., the meanings of these words can be understood differently by different peole. That is why it is difficult for me to agree to your equation God is Love and therefore Love is God. In order to properly understand the the L=G one must first understand the G=L statement. Otherwise our human and limited understanding of Love might cause us to misunderstand God.
Thus, any time we say that “God is…something”, It may not follow that “Something… Is God”.
Peace
James
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ryanoneil
Guest
Yes you are right, but step back further and you see love makes faith possible. God shares His life with us (grace) out of love. The gift of faith come out of God’s love.
Faith is not blindness. It is the opening of the heart’s eyes by the grace of God and the interior help of the Holy Spirit.
that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation resulting in knowledge of him. May the eyes of (your) hearts be enlightened, that you may know what is the hope that belongs to his call, what are the riches of glory in his inheritance among the holy ones (Eph 1:17-18)
We see the face of Jesus in each other.
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ryanoneil
Guest
The theological virtues are faith, hope, and love. The cardinal virtues are prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance. The other human virtues are grouped around these four.Great thoughts, everyone! Thanks for helping me think this thing through. Does everyone think we’re right in saying there are five classes, or categories of virtue–Love, Faith, Hope, Justice and Wisdom? Does it sound correct that all other virtues are examples of one of these five kinds? If this is accurate, then all other virtues are lesser than these, and we only need to consider which of these five is the greatest, most important, and most desirable of them all.
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James_S_Saint
Guest
First I would protest that Love is a He, not a She.Well said, Saint! Yes, I suppose Love itself does not know how to go about loving!
Would you say, then, that Love needs both Wisdom and Faith to guide her?
Faith, hope, trust, understanding, and wisdom.
Faith, hope, and trust can all lead to love. Once with love, faith and trust are no longer required if they had been the path. Hope is always required. Faith and trust are about oneself and have no love about them. They are merely a path. One that is is easily obscured and lost.
Love without wisdom is easily lost. With wisdom, love is inherent.
The issue of HOW to love is entirely one of wisdom.
How does one truly love if they do not know what it is that they are loving? Thus is the need for faith and hope. But faith in what? The same thing that one is to love and know not? One can truly only have faith in what one sees, in hopes for what one doesn’t see. Thus something to see is given and is the beginning of the road to wisdom, the road to inherent love.
Faith that leads not to understanding yields a false love and weak fore it knows not in what it was placed. It only senses a foundation, but cannot stand firmly upon it fore it is without under-standing.
With understanding, love is not an option, but merely the puzzle. How to accomplish the love is the wisdom. Wisdom is how to use understanding.
So first there must be something given within which there can be faith/trust, that leads to understanding that leads to wisdom that leads to the accomplishment of true love. But there are many pitfalls along the road. A standard, grace, vision, and hope must all be provided along the journey.
All provided by the love inherent in wisdom of the understanding of how to love.
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spockrates
Guest
True, that, James! How can we, the finite, who are limited by time, space, and the smallness of our intellect and ineptitude comprehend the God who is unlimited by time and space, and unlimited in His intellect and power? We cannot comprehend, unless, of course, if God chooses to reveal the truth to us. Tell me, James, is revealing the truth how God rolls? Or do you think He chooses to keep Himself hidden from our understanding?
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spockrates
Guest
True. So, Ryan, when Saint Paul wrote this,
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
(1 Corinthians 13:13)
do you think He was speaking of God’s love for us being the greatest, rather than our love for Him? Or do you think that He was speaking of our love, but that our Faith being the cause of our Love does not make it greater, but only makes it prior? I mean, consider Mary. In some way she was the cause of Christ–her giving birth to Him and all. Yet, He was still greater than she was in being, for He was God in the flesh, and she was not.
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spockrates
Guest
Then Wisdom, it seems, is certainly in the running for being the greatest of virtues, don’t you think? How would you compare her to Love? If they were women vying for your affection, who would you desire more?
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Love and Wisdom
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spockrates
Guest
Ryan:
I suppose I like the more modern terms of
- intellectual virtues
- moral virtues, and
- theological virtues
newadvent.org/cathen/15472a.htm
And when I use the word *Wisdom *I’m possibly describing all of the virtues classified as intellectual. Justice, it seems, is just one of the moral virtues–though perhaps the predominant one. Love, together with Faith and Hope are, of course, the theological virtues.
Would you, Ryan, then say that the theological virtues are superior to the intellectual and moral virtues, and that Love is the greatest of all virtues? Do you think this is what St. Paul meant when he wrote these words?
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
(1 Corinthians 13:13)
Or do you think that he was only saying that Love is merely greatest of the three–that is, Love is greater than Faith and Hope, but not necessarily greater than all? I’m thinking that, perhaps, one of the moral or intellectual virtues might possibly be greater than Love. What about you?
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