S
spockrates
Guest
DJ:
Are you going to spin more of that beautiful music, or were you just hip hoppin’ by?
I’m thinking love is
- an emotion
- a motivation
- a decision
- an action
- Status
Are you going to spin more of that beautiful music, or were you just hip hoppin’ by?
I’m thinking love is
S
spockrates
Guest
A second time they summoned the man who had been blind. “Give glory to God,” they said. “We know this man [Jesus] is a sinner.”
He replied, “Whether he is a sinner or not, I don’t know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!”
(John 9:24-25)
No, not yet, Ignatius. But perhaps you may cure me of my blindness! You say Wisdom is only knowing what one should do, but is it not unwise to refuse to do what you know you should do? Isn’t it Wisdom that helps the blind see that to not act according to the truth God reveals is foolishness?
http://www.request.org.uk/main/bible/blind.jpg
What is the virtue that helps the blind see what he should do?
S
spockrates
Guest
Then what would you say in reply to the wise king Solomon, Capz?Love is the greatest.
Probably the only thing Iv’e seen so far that makes sense on these boards
For *Wisdom *is more precious than rubies,
and *nothing *you desire can compare with her.
(Proverbs 8:11)
If Love were the greatest, then wouldn’t the truth be that she would compare to Wisdom?
S
spockrates
Guest
Thank you, Cinette! But is it not Wisdom, rather than Love, that helps us discern that the Ten Commandments are the truth?
S
spockrates
Guest
J
JRKH
Guest
I will tell you my dear friend that you may know both what is the greatest Good you can wish for your Loved Ones and also that you may Know why Love is the Greates of the Virtues and Why Love is the essential and inseperable element of all other Godly Virtues.The greatest benefit for them would be for me to know how to best benefit them.
Tell me, James, what virtue would show me the truth about how to best benefit them? The emotion of Love, or the unemotional, but rational, Wisdom?
The Greatest Good that you can hope to Give a Loved one is that they spend eternity in Heaven with God. If you truly Love someone, that is what you wish for them.
When that wish, that desire becomes the integral and driving force of your life, then wisdom and all other virtues will be aligned with that desire.
Love - Love God - Love neighbor - Love enemies - Serve, Pray, Work for Love. Love of God and Love of fellow Man.
A God fearing man is Wise because he Loves
He is Chaste because he Loves.
He is Humble because he Loves.
He is Modest because he Loves.
He is Prudent because he Loves.
He is Helpful because he Loves.
He is all of these things and more because of the one essential thing that he wishes for with all of his heart for those he truly loves. Eternal happiness with God in Heaven.
I can say no more.
Peace
James
P
Prodigal_Son
Guest
Paul says that in the end three things remain. He is not saying that love is the greatest property, period, but rather the greatest “left standing”. Knowledge will pass away, tongues will cease. You might claim that, in the present moment, communication or wisdom or prophecy is more important than love, but these are means to an end. The end is found in God, who is love.And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
(1 Corinthians 13:13)
Hi! I’ve been wondering something: Saint Paul tells you and I that love is the greatest, but is he right? You see, I’m not so sure he is. I’m hoping someone can explain why love is greater and what it is greater than. Any thoughts?
S
spockrates
Guest
James:
Please do not say you cannot say any more, but that you will not say any more. Is there not much to be said? For my opening post was this:
And although you have said well why Love is great, you have not demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt why it is the *greatest *of all virtues. After so many posts, and so much time invested, I believe we are closer to knowing the truth–at least, we have eliminated those opinions which are false. Will you now, as the Roman Governor Pilot, wash your hands of the truth and be done with it? Or will you continue, with me, to earnestly seek the answer to the question, “What is the truth?” Don’t you think we should follow Saint Paul’s advice?And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
(1 Corinthians 13:13)
Hi! I’ve been wondering something: Saint Paul tells you and I that love is the greatest, but is he right? You see, I’m not so sure he is. I’m hoping someone can explain why love is greater and what it is greater than. Any thoughts?
Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
(Galatians 6:9)
Or the advice of my teacher Socrates?
And do not say you cannot answer. Be brave, like a man, and if God is willing, you will be able to answer.
(Theaetetus, 151)
S
spockrates
Guest
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
(1 Corinthians 13:8)
True, Prodigal, knowledge will pass away. But what knowledge? True knowledge, or false opinion? Will there be no knowledge of the truth in eternity? If so, then will we cease to have minds of our own?
Descartes wrote, “I think, therefore I am.” But if there is no knowledge of even this truth in heaven, then will we even be aware we are?
Still, I don’t think we have to go very far to see that Saint Paul was thinking of false opinion (not truth) as passing away in Eternity, for in the next verses he writes this:
For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
(1 Corinthians 13:9-12)
To say, “Then I shall know fully,” must mean that Wisdom (or the ability to know the truth) shall endure the grave and be a partner with Love. Both will be virtues at our sides for ever more; don’t you think?
http://www.spankmenews.com/images/wallpaper/348.jpg
**
Wisdom and Love - together with us forever?**
S
spockrates
Guest
James:
If you decide to continue, I think it wise to pick up the investigation where we left off. If you recall, Solomon wrote:
For wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.
(Proverbs 8:11)
And I think you had a creative way to resolve the apparent conflict between the opinion that nothing compares to Love, and the wise king’s statement that nothing compares to Wisdom. That is, you endeavored to show that some Wisdom *is *Love.
And my first thought was that Wisdom has the following attributes. She is an or a:
It seems, then, we have eliminated the possibility that Wisdom is Love. And, in retrospect, I think this is a good thing, because knowing the truth is better than being deceived! But I fear it is also a frightening thing, because we are back to admitting we do not yet know why Love is better than Wisdom. But if we are brave, and willing to take the risk to ask God for wisdom, and see her with all our heart, then she will tell us the truth–even the truth that she is lesser than Love. For Wisdom cannot lie. So if you are ready to face the truth like a man, then I will proudly stand at your side, and may God help us proceed with comparing Love with Wisdom! Are you willing?
If you decide to continue, I think it wise to pick up the investigation where we left off. If you recall, Solomon wrote:
For wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.
(Proverbs 8:11)
And I think you had a creative way to resolve the apparent conflict between the opinion that nothing compares to Love, and the wise king’s statement that nothing compares to Wisdom. That is, you endeavored to show that some Wisdom *is *Love.
And my first thought was that Wisdom has the following attributes. She is an or a:
- determination
- motivation
- decision
- action
- emotion
- motivation
- decision
- action
It seems, then, we have eliminated the possibility that Wisdom is Love. And, in retrospect, I think this is a good thing, because knowing the truth is better than being deceived! But I fear it is also a frightening thing, because we are back to admitting we do not yet know why Love is better than Wisdom. But if we are brave, and willing to take the risk to ask God for wisdom, and see her with all our heart, then she will tell us the truth–even the truth that she is lesser than Love. For Wisdom cannot lie. So if you are ready to face the truth like a man, then I will proudly stand at your side, and may God help us proceed with comparing Love with Wisdom! Are you willing?
J
JRKH
Guest
My Dear Friend in Christ.
I have given the best that am able and must leave it to others to carry on with you.
I am not a philosopher. Nor do I have the time to devote to all the different avenues that you are pursuing with others.
I have not the need to “dissassemble” things as you seem to. I know that the interconnected mechanisms of the Virtues works. I have even opened up the mechanism and taken a look at how these things interconnect. However, I don’t feel the need to take the mechanism apart and measure each component in an effort to determine which is the most important part, or the most perfectly formed of the mechanism.
I have given the best council that I can on the matter. If this is insufficient then I pray that others will be better suited to helping you than I. If you wish to view that as “washing my hands”, of abandoning you in some way, then I apologize and hope you will forgive me.
Peace
James
P
pneuma07
Guest
Dear Spock,Yes, that is helpful, Pneuma!
It seems then that there is a wisdom that is not a supernatural gift of God–though perhaps a natural gift given to us by virtue of our genetics and environment. There is also a Wisdom that is a supernatural gift of God–that which we call the wisdom of God, and the mind of Christ, and perhaps several other thought-provoking and wonderful titles. She is the virtue of whom Solomon speaks, and the one who we are comparing with Love.
Likewise, there is a love that is not supernatural, but a natural affection that a mother has for her child, a husband has for his wife, friends have for one another, and the like. These are not exactly the same as the Love of God, which causes us to “love your enemies” as Christ compels us. To love the unloving, even those who hate us is unnatural, but not ignoble, it is a supernatural Love of the highest kind, and most like the Love of God, as Jesus taught us:
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
(John 3:16)
As a parent, I cannot imagine sacrificing my own son for those who have no love for me in hope that they might love me. Such a love is inhuman, but (thanks be to God) just the kind of Love God has for us and offers to us as an absolutely free gift, just like Wisdom.
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
(James 1:5)
And I’m asking that we consider which virtue God gives us is greatest, not out of a lack of gratitude for either, but out of a desire to know each gift better and, in so knowing, appreciate them all the more! And what I think we know, at this point, is that Love and Wisdom are both gifts of God and supernatural virtues. Do you agree with me?
Code:
thanks for your appreciative words. :)is the gift you are properly speaking about here it seems. Loving can also be a gift for us, as faith is.
( Germans would say that faith is Gabe und Ausgabe, ie gift und task ) IMHO.
Ultimately, indeed, anything we have is a gracious gift, comes from His grace.
And the gifts of the Spirit, as *permanent dispositions which make man docile in following the promptings of the Holy Spirit, *could also be called virtues i guess.
Therefore I am with you in considering that probably we could say that virtues have a dimension of gift, and gifts have a dimension of virtue.
This, for reasons already offered ( God created out of Love with Wisdom, rather than the opposite ) does not nevertheless IMHO nullify the distinction between virtues and gifts of the Spirit.
Do you guess it was unwise working out this distinction ?
James 1:5 itself, by inviting to ask for wisdom, seems to me to underline its eminent nature of gift.
P
pneuma07
Guest
If we follow Gregory the Great on that, we have an ascending movement of the soul, from
the fear of the Lord through the other gifts of the Spirit up to wisdom. Which is considered the highest of them, and moves from fear of the Lord, piety, knowledge…
(It is possible that what you propose as definition of Wisdom does cover in itself other gifts, on which theological thought had elaborated distinctions).
In this view Christian wisdom would be built on the foundations of the other gifts.
And wisdom would not destroy its own foundations.
OTOH, if you should mind that fearing the Lord is wise, how much wiser should we consider loving Him ?
(BTW “counsel” does not in itself mean following counsels, but having right judgment).
P
pneuma07
Guest
I’d like to check whether we’re talking about the same thing:Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another …
(Romans 12:10)
But is Love really supreme Wisdom? or is the truth, instead, that Wisdom makes supreme Love possible? Consider this:
Wisdom, it seems to me, has the following attributes that give her such beauty that Solomon found her to be the supreme virtue. She is a:
Now compare this with Love; she too has several similar qualities of beauty. For she is an or a:
- motivator, for she strongly motivates us to seek the truth via reason
- determinater, for the helps us determine what is true and what is false, what is good and what is evil, what is righteous and what is unrighteous, and what is like God and what is ungodly.
- decider, for she stirs us to decide to live according to the truth she reveals to us
- activator, for once deciding to live according to truth, she keeps reminding us until we get the gumption to get up and do what we know is right
But notice what Wisdom is not: Can you or I say she is an emoter? Is it possible to have a emotion of wisdom or to say one feels wise for someone? No, I don’t think so. Wise is not a feeling, but a way of rationally thinking. Therefore, Spock was correct in saying that the wise man can be one who feels no emotion. Reason and logic is what makes Wisdom beautiful, not feeling, for she has none to give us. Sadness, happiness, anger, affection, despair, hopefulness, are not in her, for she feels nothing, but only thinks rationally and calmly reveals the truth to us.
- emoter, for no greater feeling of emotion is there than the love of Christ shed abroad in our hearts
- motivator, for she strongly motivates us to seek to love others as Christ first loved us
- decider, for she stirs us to decide to love according to fulfill the desire she places in our hearts
- activator, for once once deciding to act according to our desire to love, she keeps growing this desire in us until we get the gumption to get up and love as we know we should
Moreover, notice what Love is not: Can you or I say love is a determiner of truth? Is it possible to say that the feeling of love, rather than sound reason, shows us what the truth really is? Or is it rather true that our feelings sometimes deceive us, and that what feels right is not always the right thing to do? Gandhi was a great example of love, yet we might say he was unwise to embrace Hinduism and reject the truth that Jesus is the one true God. So I don’t think Love is the virtue that helps us sort the truth from the lies, though she does motivate us to do what is right not only because it is right, but because it is loving and most like God, gave His one and only Son out of sacrificial love for us.
So Wisdom reveals this truth to me that I cannot ignore, for as Mother Teresa once said,
Once you see truth, you can’t unsee it!
And the truth I cannot unsee is this:
Are you seeing that you cannot unsee this truth, too, Pneuma?
- All Love has, as a quality, emotion. For all Love has some compassion and affection for those loved.
- All Wisdom has no emotion. For Wisdom determines what is truth, but she is in no way a feeling.
- **Therefore, it is impossible that supreme Love *is ***Wisdom. But it is indeed true that it is wise to love supremely.
http://scifiwire.com/assets_c/2009/05/Battlestar_Park_Helfer-thumb-550x304-17988.jpg
How can the emotion of Love be emotionless Wisdom?
**Charity **
1822 Charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God.
If this is what the thread is dealing with , if this is the Agape about which we’re told by the NT, I am at loss if you ask me to tell you something wiser than that.
We’re not speaking about mere sentiment , emotion, as beautiful and marvellous as that can be.
At this point you might want to consider and comment the quotation from Deus Caritas est in post 276, which could turn out IMHO very helpful.Maybe I could say that Christianity IMHO believes there’s nothing wiser than Loving God. Are you telling me that I am definitely wrong Spock ?
What is wiser than loving God above all things ? What is wiser than wanting what God wants ?
"Thy will be done "
P
pneuma07
Guest
Here we are. If we consider Loving God in its dimension as idem velle, to want the same things as He, we understand IMHO that the granddaughter did not love God.Yes, that would be true if Wisdom were not a virtue, and merely a gift, and Love were not a gift, but merely a virtue. Isn’t the truth evident, now that Wisdom is a gift and a virtue, and Love is a virtue and a gift? Or has Wisdom not yet convinced you?
Regarding Loving God, it is possible that the granddaughter in our example believed that ending the suffering of her grandmother was what God wanted her to do, and so was an act of loving God. Of course, she would be mistaken, but it was not for lack of Love that she failed to see the truth, but for lack of Wisdom.
http://resources1.news.com.au/image...d-her-grandmother-Rachael-William-5652179.jpg
Isn’t it quite possible to love unwisely?
My present appraisal of the quoted short sentence by St. Augustine “love and do what you will “ builds on your suggestion about putting God’s will into the picture.
If you love God, …. you want what He wants.
Assembling then the Pope’s insights with yours own, we can have “Love God and do what you will. Because the more you love Him, the more your will is according to His will”
We can definitely love creatures in an unwise manner, as we saw.
If I kill my grandmother or anybody out of love for her, I am not loving God, or not enough.
Also, if I love my son or anybody more than I love Jesus, I am not loving God enough.
We can say, I suppose, both of the following: that in order to be in communion of will with God I must know His will, and that it is being in communion that shows I really know His will.
7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. ( John 15)
I cannot see how we, in Loving Him, could be unwise.
You see why I focused on the distinction between loving Him and loving our neighbour.
At present I cannot “unsee” , that Loving Him, approaching a communion of wills with Him ( do you agree that loving Him means approaching a communion of wills ?), is supreme Wisdom.
Are we saying similar things , but calling similar things in different manner ?
If, eg, you do not want to call communion with His will “Love”, but simply “Wisdom”, so be it.
Then, that wisdom, which with the Church I call Love, is greatest.
In Christ
P7
S
spockrates
Guest
I do appreciate your effort, James. Hope to see you around the forum again soon, and to hear your opinions. If you change your mind and decide to become wiser about Love, et al., I’ll be here with P7 and others.
S
spockrates
Guest
Agreed; Wisdom, it seems, is something God freely gives us, so this virtue can rightly be called a gift. The Holy Spirit, it seems, somehow gives us the wisdom God Himself has. But is not Love also a virtue freely given by God through the Holy Spirit?
Dear Spock,
God offers His Love as gift. In other words Being loved , receiving loveCode:thanks for your appreciative words. :)
is the gift you are properly speaking about here it seems. Loving can also be a gift for us, as faith is.
( Germans would say that faith is Gabe und Ausgabe, ie gift und task ) IMHO.
Ultimately, indeed, anything we have is a gracious gift, comes from His grace.
And the gifts of the Spirit, as *permanent dispositions which make man docile in following the promptings of the Holy Spirit, *could also be called virtues i guess.
Therefore I am with you in considering that probably we could say that virtues have a dimension of gift, and gifts have a dimension of virtue.
This, for reasons already offered ( God created out of Love with Wisdom, rather than the opposite ) does not nevertheless IMHO nullify the distinction between virtues and gifts of the Spirit.
Do you guess it was unwise working out this distinction ?
James 1:5 itself, by inviting to ask for wisdom, seems to me to underline its eminent nature of gift.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
(Galatians 5:22-23)
Or would you say, P7, that the fruit of the Holy Spirit not a free gift, but an earned reward?
J
JRKH
Guest
Thank you.I do appreciate your effort, James. Hope to see you around the forum again soon, and to hear your opinions. If you change your mind and decide to become wiser about Love, et al., I’ll be here with P7 and others.
I don’t think it is a matter of my needing to “become wiser about Love” as you say, for I try to reside in God’s Love and trust Him to give me the Love and support I need.
Of course
I’m sure I could be better at applying that Love to others in my life.
So it is less a question of “understanding Love”, philosophically, as it is improving how I dispose myself to act the Love God gives me through grace.
I think that is where you and I differ and why I feel that I can no longer offer you meaningful (name removed by moderator)ut.
God’s Love can only really be understood through living, practice, and prayer. It cannot be fully understood by thinking and trying to explain/define it.
How many pages are there on this thread? I know there are well over 300 posts. All trying to explain to you that Love is at the center of All.
Christ explained it in two commandments. Paul in a couple of verses.
Philosophers seem to need reams of paper and millions of words.
Have fun
Peace
James
S
spockrates
Guest
That’s admirable, and now quite understandable, given my current understanding of Love and Reason (AKA Wisdom). For Love cannot help but be guided by virtuous intuition. Unlike Wisdom, she does not rationally know why she does what she does (nor can she explain it in words), but instead she is limited to doing what feels right to her. Her sister Wisdom, on the other hand, knows exactly what is right and what is wrong, for the truth never escapes her. She can explain why she does clearly, concisely and cogently, and would never be caught dead acting against the will of God, which is so completely known by her. Yet she sadly has no joy in anything she does, nor any passion, nor compassion. I suppose it can rightly be said, then, that we admire her omniscience but pity her lack of omnibenevolence.
Your words, “why I *feel *that I can no longer offer you,” make me smile, for I think I’m correct in saying one guided by Love alone is forced to trust his feelings. You are in some ways like Captain Kirk, who so often fascinated his Science Officer Spock by trusting his intuition more than reason, and taking risks that Spock found completely illogical. I do genuinely admire your commitment to Love, James, and sincerely appreciate the love you have expressed to me by sticking with me so long. I only wonder if your Love would become deeper were you to more fully develop the virtue of Wisdom.
Blessings to you, my friend! May Love guide you as best she can and give you peace of mind and joy as you go.
S
spockrates
Guest
The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord. They belong in their fullness to Christ, Son of David. They complete and perfect the virtues of those who receive them. They make the faithful docile in readily obeying divine inspirations.If we follow Gregory the Great on that, we have an ascending movement of the soul, from
the fear of the Lord through the other gifts of the Spirit up to wisdom. Which is considered the highest of them, and moves from fear of the Lord, piety, knowledge…
(It is possible that what you propose as definition of Wisdom does cover in itself other gifts, on which theological thought had elaborated distinctions).
In this view Christian wisdom would be built on the foundations of the other gifts.
And wisdom would not destroy its own foundations.
…
(Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1831)
In a word: Fascinating! Our dialog, and perhaps the Holy Spirit, has brought us to a point of understanding I never suspected!
Rather than many classes of immortal virtue, there now appears to be only two–Love and Wisdom. Love is that class of virtue which is guided by emotion (but not reason), and Wisdom is that class of virtue which is guided by reason (but not emotion). And all of the other virtues might fit under one or the other of these two categories. Consider the six aforementioned virtues:
- understanding
- counsel
- fortitude
- knowledge
- piety
- fear of the Lord
- temperance
- prudence
- justice
newadvent.org/cathen/15472a.htm
Yet, are they not also examples, or kinds, of Wisdom? Thus, I was in error in asserting that Justice is a separate category of virtue from Wisdom, for now she appears to be merely an aspect of her! If Spock were to make such a mistake, he would have cause to be as embarrassed as I am. (But being the non-emotional and rational kind, I suppose such feeling would be beneath him.) For he said:
I always endeavor to be accurate.
(Spock)
Socrates, however, would readily admit his lack of wisdom and say:
I chop and change and continually modify my opinion. Inconsistency is to be expected in me and any other amateur.
(Hippias Minor, 376)
For he was always the first to admit when he knew he did not know, and did not care a whip if others knew the same.
But I’m better off for having this dialog with you, and James, and others, for now I can say that I don’t know much, but I know more than I did before!
http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/02/25/battlestar5_4.jpg
**
Justice is just Wisdom in disguise?**
- Status