Is Masturbation the only "debatable" Sin?

[Joe_5859]

I thought it might be helpful to add a few clarifications to help steer the discussion away from uncharitable words.

First, the Church and many of the posters here are not attempting to point at specific people and say “You are in a state of mortal sin!” In general, we can say that a particular action is grave matter, but one must look at the other two requirements (full knowledge and complete consent) in order to see if a specific instance of someone committing that sin would constitute mortal sin.

Being an internet forum, none of us can speak with any certainty as to the knowledge and consent level of another poster. Therefore, to be theologically precise, it would be more accurate to say that so-and-so has committed a sin that is of grave matter rather than saying so-and-so has committed mortal sin. Of course, it is easier to say “mortal sin”, and it makes more sense to most of us. However, you can say that, in general, this sin is mortal, provided the other two requirements are met (which, for many of us here, goes without saying).

I don’t think anyone here has been pointing fingers at anyone in particular and questioning their eternal salvation. A question was raised about the morality of a particular act, and many people are simply trying to respond with what the Church says on the matter. I don’t think anyone is trying to be judgmental or condemning. They’re just trying to explain Church teaching.

Anyway, that’s my two cents. Maybe I’m overly optimistic.

 

[Whalstib]

Sorry, bubba. We do not ALL do this. And MANY of us will not ever do this again. Believe it or not, it is completely and utterly possible to live without carnal pleasure.

I could have written the above. I had “conquered” this masturbation. I talked with friends who said it was impossible to go the rest of your life and I used the “Sorry bubba…” line.

Once again in me we’re talking about someone who has failed 2-5 times depending on severity. All this AFTER having conquered it! All this after the urges completlty subdued…

For me it was a blessing. I needed to have my pride knocked down a notch. I needed to learn compassion for my fellow man. I wasn’t learning that by daily Mass, LOTH, Rosary, Adoration etc…

My devotions had become legalistic. Heck I won’t even finish the cup of coffee I have now because I have just over an hour before I receive the Eucharist.

But when I did fail and when you fail I hope your relationship with Christ is one of love and not hell fire judgement.

Pride before a fall! Please find Love in your hearts! BEFORE you fall! YOU Will fall!

I suggest reading the Bible and leaving out all the “moral theology” Books BTW Christopher West rolls more eyes than this forum combined so don’t look to man for answers!

W

 

[Whalstib]

What you are struggling with is the concept of MORTAL sin, the one that separates us from God. As I stated before, missing Mass is also a mortal sin. Is it equal to murder? Disrespecting one’s parents is a mortal sin? Is is equal to abortion? Where did you get this idea that all things must be equal in obvious severity to us as human beings? Isn’t is enough that God has given us the Commandments and the CCC has defined them?

Once again a refusal to read with compassion and judge! Goodness!

The idea of stealing not being the same as murder, swearing not the same as adultery but being mortal sins! You folks are leaving out a key element:

Christ specifically tells us these things! It’s IN the BIBLE in black and white!

10 Commandments ring any bells!

That’s the difference! There are no disclaimers about immaturity or force of habit or anxiety included!

Christ further tells us to love one another “as I have loved you” and SPECIFICALLY tells us NOT to judge.

Yet these elements are consistantly ignored.

A very interesting phenomenon amoungst those who seems so well versed in moral theology.

Once again I strongly suggest you read Christs words instead for a while and learn some humility and compassion before your forced to have a fall as I did.

YOU WILL learn humility!

W

 

[BRB]

I’m not sure what these daily mortal “thought sins” are that you are referring to. .

First let me express a word of gratitude to JOE 5859 !! You always communicate the message of truth, from a heart of mercy. The H.S. has really instructed you well in morals, theology, etc.

Have you considered the Priesthood ? Oh, yeah … you’re married, right

I was thinking along the lines of those brief lustful thoughts that cross our conscience whenever we see a gorgeous lady. And those times when we recall those peak sexual escapades with ladies in our past.

Not that we dwell on those thoughts for very long … but, memories are always a part of us. And, since Christ taught us that to entertain such lust is tantamount to adultery … I always confess on daily basis … to our High Priest / Christ the King. And always before Eucharist on weekly basis.

W/O weekly Eucharist … I would be much more prone to the ‘thought sins’. Still, I’m not sure they will ever go away completely.

Thus, daily bible reading & confession [since my sins are of the mortal variety] ,and weekly Eucharist is my spiritual lifeline.

 

[Joe_5859]

Christ further tells us to love one another “as I have loved you” and SPECIFICALLY tells us NOT to judge.

Christ told us not to judge other people. This does not mean we cannot judge the morality of certain actions.

I can say that masturbation is gravely disordered and, if committed with full knowledge and complete consent, would be a mortal sin.

Have I said anything about any specific person? No. The above is simply a restating of Church teaching. In no way is it a judgment on the state of any specific person’s soul.

 

[Joe_5859]

First let me express a word of gratitude to JOE 5859 !! You always communicate the message of truth, from a heart of mercy. The H.S. has really instructed you well in morals, theology, etc.

Have you considered the Priesthood ? Oh, yeah … your married, right

Thank you for your kind words. Yeah, I don’t think my wife would want me to consider the priesthood!

I was thinking along the lines of those brief lustful thoughts that cross our conscience whenever we see a gorgeous lady. And those times when we recall those peak sexual escapades with ladies in our past.

Not that we dwell on those thoughts for very long … but, memories are always a part of us. And, since Christ taught us that to entertain such lust is tantamount to adultery … I always confess on daily basis … to our High Priest / Christ the King. And always before Eucharist on weekly basis.

I would add that sin, by definition, is a choice. We do not choose our involuntary thoughts. Therefore, these images or thoughts that “pop” into our head are not sinful. If we intentionally dwell on those thoughts once they are there, then that is sinful. I believe that’s what Christ is talking about when he speaks of lustful thoughts.

W/O weekly Eucharist … I would be much more prone to the ‘thought sins’. Still, I’m not sure they will ever go away completely.

I think that’s one of the great crosses to bear for those of us who have struggled with chastity in the past. Those images stay with us and can be temptations to further unchastity.

Time is a great healer in this area. I have found that the more chronological distance there is, the less frequently such thoughts surface (of course, depending upon the nature and gravity of such past events, sometimes, a great deal of time is necessary!). Praying a “Hail Mary” the second such a thought comes to the surface is very effective!

Thus, daily bible reading & confession [since my sins are of the mortal variety] ,and weekly Eucharist is my spiritual lifeline.

Glad to hear you’re keeping up on thses things!

 

[Whalstib]

I can say that masturbation is gravely disordered and, if committed with full knowledge and complete consent, would be a mortal sin.
.

This concept of full knowledge…Is that in comprehending or having been told/warned.

I mean I understand fully to kill a real bad thing. I feel that in my bones. Lying, stealing, adultery, Lords name in vain, missing Mass all clear cut mortal sins in my book that need no explaination.

Now I will concede on masturbation perhaps I haven’t grasped the dire mortal seriousness of it. With I’m still culpabale on a certain level if I indulge can I still be guilty of mortal sin as my understanding of it isn’t a clear turning from God based upon what I’ve read been told and experienced?

Please don’t look at this a looking for loopholes. I’m trying to live a very spiritual life. Despite my “repeal of prohibition” post earlier I know that it’s against a spiritual life as is aquiring vast wealth for example. masturbation wil clearly make a spiritual life harder beyond a doubt.

i ask about the mortal aspect of the sin.

Thanks,

W

 

[blessedtoo]

I could have written the above. I had “conquered” this masturbation. I talked with friends who said it was impossible to go the rest of your life and I used the “Sorry bubba…” line.

Once again in me we’re talking about someone who has failed 2-5 times depending on severity. All this AFTER having conquered it! All this after the urges completlty subdued…

For me it was a blessing. I needed to have my pride knocked down a notch. I needed to learn compassion for my fellow man. I wasn’t learning that by daily Mass, LOTH, Rosary, Adoration etc…

My devotions had become legalistic. Heck I won’t even finish the cup of coffee I have now because I have just over an hour before I receive the Eucharist.

But when I did fail and when you fail I hope your relationship with Christ is one of love and not hell fire judgement.

Pride before a fall! Please find Love in your hearts! BEFORE you fall! YOU Will fall!

I suggest reading the Bible and leaving out all the “moral theology” Books BTW Christopher West rolls more eyes than this forum combined so don’t look to man for answers!

W

I think it’s awesome that you continue to strive for perfect chastity. I absolutely, postively agree with you that we will likely NOT reach the state of perfection while here on this earth. I agree completely that we will all fall to sin, whether it be this one or some other. I agree that certain factors can mitigate the culpability of our guilt.

Where I disagree with you is on your insistence that this sin is not mortal. Your assertion that, because it somehow does not seem as “grave” as murder or abortion, is a canard. I used the example of missing Mass because, if CAF is any indication, this is also a very hotly debated sin - one that many struggle with. How can missing a Mass be as grave as abortion? Yet, we know, as Catholics, we are obligated to attend Mass every Sunday. Should I, simply because I can’t understand how this can be grave, decide, on my own, that this can’t be a mortal sin? And if I start down that road, where does it end?

Christ further tells us to love one another “as I have loved you” and SPECIFICALLY tells us NOT to judge.

Yet these elements are consistantly ignored.

A very interesting phenomenon amoungst those who seems so well versed in moral theology.

Once again I strongly suggest you read Christs words instead for a while and learn some humility and compassion before your forced to have a fall as I did.

I’m not sure what your intention was for starting this thread, if not to get some feedback. When the clear teaching of the Church is presented, you accuse us of being judgemental and lacking compassion. What exactly were you hoping for?

I believe we all understand what it is like to fall to sin. The difference is in how we proceed from there. We are either sorry and seek absolution OR we attempt to somehow justify it by attaching disclaimers and qualifiers and, well, excuses. In the end, we reach a conclusion that differs from Church teaching, such as you have reached here:

I know masturbation is a sin but my current understanding is it’s NOT mortal.

Let’s be clear. This is a mortal sin. It is the misuse of the sexual organs for pleasure or whatever you want to call it (insert euphemism here). It is a rejection of the constant teachings of the Church and thus, of God’s intentions for us. If you have not fully grasped the gravity of this sin, the obligation is yours to continue searching and reflecting, as the CCC compels all Catholics to properly form their consciences. If you still do not “fully understand”, that does not give you, or anyone, the right to “revise” the teaching itself.

Perhaps your culpability is lessened. Perhaps your priests are correct and in your case, this sin is reduced to nothing more than venial. In that case, I would question why you felt the need to post this thread at all. If you are confident, that in your case, you are free of mortal sin, then why ask us?

 

[Joe_5859]

This concept of full knowledge…Is that in comprehending or having been told/warned.

I mean I understand fully to kill a real bad thing. I feel that in my bones. Lying, stealing, adultery, Lords name in vain, missing Mass all clear cut mortal sins in my book that need no explaination.

Now I will concede on masturbation perhaps I haven’t grasped the dire mortal seriousness of it. With I’m still culpabale on a certain level if I indulge can I still be guilty of mortal sin as my understanding of it isn’t a clear turning from God based upon what I’ve read been told and experienced?

Please don’t look at this a looking for loopholes. I’m trying to live a very spiritual life. Despite my “repeal of prohibition” post earlier I know that it’s against a spiritual life as is aquiring vast wealth for example. masturbation wil clearly make a spiritual life harder beyond a doubt.

i ask about the mortal aspect of the sin.

Thanks,

W

I don’t think that I’m qualified (nor do I know you well enough personally) to tell you whether or not you have “full knowledge”. Perhaps it would be helpful to look at a few paragraphs from the Catechism:

CCC 1859: Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

CCC 1860: Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

CCC 1861: Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

Notice, the Catechism speaks of “knowledge of the sinful character of the act.” It doesn’t say anything about complete and total understanding of why the act is sinful.

I think that with sexual sins, what comes into play the most is the “complete consent” aspect. Something like masturbation can become addicting and habit-forming. Thus, it is possible that we are not fully consenting to the act, but we are so addicted that it becomes a sort of pathological impulse rather than a conscious choice. Plus, when passion take over, reason often leaves the room, which further makes it difficult to really choose the act.

All this being said, I would recommend to anyone who struggles with masturbation to go to Confession whenever you fall and let God sort it out! We can sit around and analyze our motives and our level of knowledge and consent until we’re blue in the face, but it never hurts to go to Confession!

As Blessedtoo said, we all sin and we all fall. If it’s not masturbation, it will be something else. What really makes us who we are is not that we sin, but what we do about it. And what we should do is continually turn to the Lord and ask for His mercy and forgiveness.

 

[BRB]

Notice, the Catechism speaks of “knowledge of the sinful character of the act.” It doesn’t say anything about complete and total understanding of why the act is sinful.

I think that with sexual sins, what comes into play the most is the “complete consent” aspect. Something like masturbation can become addicting and habit-forming. Thus, it is possible that we are not fully consenting to the act, but we are so addicted that it becomes a sort of pathological impulse rather than a conscious choice. Plus, when passion take over, reason often leaves the room, which further makes it difficult to really choose the act.

.

Addiction to a vice occurs when we basically give in fully to the temptation … with little desire to fight the sin.

IMO … the ‘addiction condition’ does not mitigate the sinfulness of the act. It just multiplies the offenses, and their malignant effects on our spiritual relationship to the Lord. Usually, addictions lead to total loss of one’s spiritual core. Grieving the H.S. to the point we fail to see the horrors of our actions and causing us to ignore the offense and to stop confessing. That is when one has hit rock bottom, and is in denial.

This is why one should always fight, – to reduce the # of offenses. Only by repentance and reduction in offenses can we once again slowly grow in strength of H.S. … and hopefully gain complete victory over any particular sin. Day by day vigilance …is the only way.

 

[hasikelee]

Amazing!

Spade here…

Yes I want to call masturbation not a mortal sin becuase of a personal reason. That reason is I’m not self rightgeous enough to condemn every one on this forum that’s why? Here’s more:
Because the CCC says it is NOT!
Because incredibly holy priests have told me it’s NOT!
Because it’s NOT addressed in the Bible!
Because natural law and common sense prove it’s no where near the level of abortion or murder!
And because YOU don’t KNOW the mind of God yet prefer to play god and condemn.

Christ tells me to have compassion and NOT to judge! So I don’t.

Once again I get the distinct impression you consider masturbation AS bad as homosexuality, abortion, euthanasia, murder etc Right!? You back pedal but when we come to the absolute punishment for each you do say if one dies in the state of having committed any one of the above without absolution they are a lost soul? yes we know it’s their choice…yawn… BUT are you suggesting what I illustrate?

Please take a second to quickly answer this yes or no because you’ve confused me. You can follow up on an additional post.

Yes or No!?

W!

W,

Is this a personal struggle for you? I don’t need to claim that I am not condemning anyone, but I find your posts are focused on this feeling of being condemned. If you are struggling with masturbation and guilt, it may not be wise to debate the issue on a public forum until you have resolved this issue.

If this is the case, I will graciously back out of the thread as I don’t deal with personal conflict. I am here talking because it is interesting, not because I have some personal stake in the issue.

That being said, you are using a very specific structure of logic. Your logic, which has been consistent throughout the thread, goes like this:

Abortion feels very evil to me.
Masturbation does not feel as evil as abortion to me.
Therefore masturbation is not as sinful as abortion.

This is a fallacious structure. I tried to give examples to show how it is used by plenty of other people to justify many different actions. Have you taken a moment to think about your logic structure?

Now, you can’t deny the fact that plenty of people believe abortion is not evil or sinful. Plenty of people actively support abortion as a sterile choice. Could they not use your same logic?

My examples stand, so I won’t bore the browsers with more. It is simply something for you to think of, W. Your argument might be one worth considering, but you will lose because your logic is flawed. Perhaps a different angle will be more conducive to an online debate.

 

[jean8]

I don’t understand what you are really trying to get at here. Are you trying to get someone else to say that masturbation isn’t a sin so that you don’t have to feel guilty for it? Because the truth is that it is one of the most harmful sins. Although it doesn’t physically harm a person in the same way that rape, murder, and other crimes do; it hurts a person spiritually.

When one masturbates, they are prone to lustful thoughts and the objectification of either women (if you are a guy) or of men (if you are a gal). It also becomes habitual for many people, which makes it so that once the devil has led you into this temptation, he is able to keep a death grasp on your soul.

If you want, you can turn to any number of Paul’s letters in the New Testament to read about how sexual immorality (which does include masturbation) is the worst of the sins, because a person is disrespecting their own body which is a temple for Christ.

true believer,
I like your respnse. it makes sense. We are all sexual beings and prone to temptations. Lustful thoughts and all.
You brought up some truthful points .

God bless,
jean8

 

[Whalstib]

Abortion feels very evil to me.
Masturbation does not feel as evil as abortion to me.
Therefore masturbation is not as sinful as abortion.
.

No…listen for about the 10th time…

Abortion is murder. 10 commandments ring a bell…Christ and countless Biblical passages make this clear murder is a capital crime. It has nothing to do with how I feel about. It’s the “law”.

Nothing is said about masturbation! Zip, nada, zero!

So we have one topic with numerous mentions and another with none.

That is the difference. And I’m sorry for you if you can’t grasp that.

Now all that being said the Church in it’s wisdom has proclaimed it grave and leans in the direction of it being a very serious matter, yet stops short of saying mortal sin in 100% of situations.

The Church has no qualms about abortion being 100% wrong. A violently raped teenager who gets pregnant can not have an abortion with Catholic Church graces.

Can you understand …

And sorry I’m not struggling with masturbation. I’ve been 100% up front with my experiences. How about you?

W

 

[Danny_OC]

The bible constantly condemns lust and extramarital sexuality. The only conceivable question at hand is whether masturbation qualifies as “lustful” and as “extramarital sexuality.” Assuming it does indeed qualify (which is quite unquestionable), the Bible is as clear on the gravity of the sin of masturbation as it is on murder.

 

[blessedtoo]

No…listen for about the 10th time…

Abortion is murder. 10 commandments ring a bell…Christ and countless Biblical passages make this clear murder is a capital crime. It has nothing to do with how I feel about. It’s the “law”.

Nothing is said about masturbation! Zip, nada, zero!

And for the 10th time, the bible does not specifically mention abortion. The Bible does not specifically mention transvestism or transgenderism or pedolphila or many other issues. WE ARE NOT BIBLE CHRISTIANS.

So we have one topic with numerous mentions and another with none.

You agree that abortion is murder and murder is clearly condemned in the Bible. Lust is also mentioned as is sexual excess and sexual license. All these things are related to masturbation, whether you want to spin the act as nothing more than physical “release” or a stress reliever or any other euphemism. The fact is one can lust for sexual pleasure for it’s own sake.

Now all that being said the Church in it’s wisdom has proclaimed it grave and leans in the direction of it being a very serious matter, yet stops short of saying mortal sin in 100% of situations.

The Church has no qualms about abortion being 100% wrong. A violently raped teenager who gets pregnant can not have an abortion with Catholic Church graces.

What you don’t understand is that the Church has no qualms that abortion, the act itself, is wrong 100% of the time, just as masturbation is. What is up for grabs is the culpability of the person who has engaged in the action. To use your example, a violently raped teenager may have a diminished culpability if she were forced by a parent to have an abortion. A wife who is abused and is dragged by an abusive husband to the abortionist may have a diminished culpability. It does not diminish the inherent evil of the act itself.

 

[blessedtoo]

Addiction to a vice occurs when we basically give in fully to the temptation … with little desire to fight the sin.

IMO … the ‘addiction condition’ does not mitigate the sinfulness of the act. It just multiplies the offenses, and their malignant effects on our spiritual relationship to the Lord. Usually, addictions lead to total loss of one’s spiritual core. Grieving the H.S. to the point we fail to see the horrors of our actions and causing us to ignore the offense and to stop confessing. That is when one has hit rock bottom, and is in denial.

This is why one should always fight, – to reduce the # of offenses. Only by repentance and reduction in offenses can we once again slowly grow in strength of H.S. … and hopefully gain complete victory over any particular sin. Day by day vigilance …is the only way.

I LOVE your post. I think this is something that has gotten lost in our modern “addiction excuses everything” culture. We forget that there has to be a first time for everything. The first drink, the first fornication, the first adultery: if we begin the process of numbing the conscience by making excuses the first, second, fifth, and 30th time, then we may find ourselves too far away from God’s voice to ever hear Him.

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

Because the CCC says it is NOT!

The CCC calls it “an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.”

It goes on to say “To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that lessen and even extenuate culpability” (CCC 2352).

Because incredibly holy priests have told me it’s NOT!

*Incredibly *holy?

Because it’s NOT addressed in the Bible!

Yes it is. Masturbation, as all non-vaginal intercourse (I’m sure we all know what I mean), falls under sodomy. If you’re having sex, and it’s *not *with a vagina, it is sodomy.

Because natural law and common sense prove it’s no where near the level of abortion or murder!

You’ve got something there. Just for fun, let me try something:

“To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility **in reference to Murder **and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit of killing people, conditions of anxiety which made killing people necessary, or other psychological or social factors that lessen and even extenuate culpability **for the murder.” **

That being said, you are using a very specific structure of logic. Your logic, which has been consistent throughout the thread, goes like this:

Abortion feels very evil to me.
Masturbation does not feel as evil as abortion to me.
Therefore masturbation is not as sinful as abortion.

“To me” is missing in the conclusion. The specific structure is called a syllogism. It is used in deduction.

This is a fallacious structure.

The structure itself is okay-ish. It is fallacious as worded.

sin = evil
abortion = sin
masturbation = sin
abortion and masturbation = sin + evil

This is licit and valid. I don’t have access to actual logic symbols.

abortion = evil and sin
murder = evil and sin
masturbation = evil and sin

Valid, until…

abortion = murder (yes)
masturbation = murder? (nope)

*This is invalid. The reasoning is essentially licit to a point, but the circle test would do a better job of illustrating this one. *

Can’t say I’m on anyone’s side. When I was in the seminary I had a doctor (that knew I was a Catholic seminarian) whom told me to masturbate at least once a month to avoid prostate cancer. “You know Father Rector, I have to masturbate. Doctor’s orders.” I’ve been *dying *to know if he was right or not, but too many conflicting answers over the years have caused me not to believe anyone. Anybody know? (I didn’t get ordained, just so you know…)

 

[BRB]

something that has gotten lost in our modern “addiction excuses everything” culture. We forget that there has to be a first time for everything. The first drink, the first fornication, the first adultery: if we begin the process of numbing the conscience by making excuses the first, second, fifth, and 30th time, then we may find ourselves too far away from God’s voice to ever hear Him.

Indeed. We all experience bad addictions which we don’t recognize, or are in denial about.

People/things in our lives ‘enable’ us with regards to our bad addictions. Sports, TV, money, cars/homes, pets, OUR JOBS, disordered sex habits … the list is endless.

We can easily spot another’s problem … but, not our own.

There is only one addiction that is beneficial. Devotion/zeal to Christianity. The H.S. is our ‘valued’ enabler. Once we become devoted to Christ via H.S. … we have the real hope/help needed to face/conquer those maladapted addictions.

 

[jean8]

No…listen for about the 10th time…

Abortion is murder. 10 commandments ring a bell…Christ and countless Biblical passages make this clear murder is a capital crime. It has nothing to do with how I feel about. It’s the “law”.

Nothing is said about masturbation! Zip, nada, zero!

So we have one topic with numerous mentions and another with none.

That is the difference. And I’m sorry for you if you can’t grasp that.

Now all that being said the Church in it’s wisdom has proclaimed it grave and leans in the direction of it being a very serious matter, yet stops short of saying mortal sin in 100% of situations.

The Church has no qualms about abortion being 100% wrong. A violently raped teenager who gets pregnant can not have an abortion with Catholic Church graces.

Can you understand …

And sorry I’m not struggling with masturbation. I’ve been 100% up front with my experiences. How about you?

W

Who are you trying to convince?
Get your bible out and read up on mastubation.

jean8

 

[Exalt]

Who are you trying to convince?
Get your bible out and read up on mastubation.

jean8

The Bible also says that women should not be allowed to speak in the house of the Lord.

Yet, we don’t follow that rule. We’ve realized it’s pretty silly.