Is Masturbation the only "debatable" Sin?

[Whalstib]

Hi,

It occurs to me that of all the sins I can imagine especially those which are regarded as “grave” …masturbation isn’t universally seen that way. Not even close.

Most mortal sins such as murder, stealing lying etc can easily be accepted as 100% wrong despite mitigating circumstances that would have to be extreme. You just can’t make a good argument fopr them at all!

But masturbation. Most of the world considers it a bad habit at worst. Many an actually very good thing In fact I can come up several reasons where it can actually BE good! Let’s separate it from lust and pornography. Of course it can be as perverted as any human proclivity. In fact it can run the gambit from simple quick release to pornagraphic extremes.

First of all I doubt I will steal, kill, commit adultery, lies (maybe a white lie) all not a big deal to resist. But as a single male I can guarantee I will have a “release” in the form of nocturnal emission or I’ve even had them semi awake with little stimulation. Men have them under many circumstances.

So since it’s inevatable that I WILL how can it be a sin? Once again sure combine with pornography or lust or more perverted natures I agree whole heartedly. Are there rules to this? If I can just reach down and quickly release the tension on very rare occations…

Aside note I recall having a relationship with a woman where we decided to be chaste and not have sex. On 2 occations our kissing became so intense both of us were weak in the knees. I said one more kiss and I will “release”! I got the kiss and “released”. And it prevented our adultery. At the point we were we weren’t going to separate corners ok.! yes we went too far but didn’t know our limits till past them.

Once again you could leave me with a million dollars and I’d not get the urge to steal. Leave me with your wife and i won’t touch her. Wouldn’t hurt a fly much less kill anyone.

So if I feel like I’m gonna find some pornography on the web if I don’t get relief…My imagination might start to go towards your wife…etc…wouldn’t a more innocent release be actually prescribed to the weak?

Thanks,

W

 

[CapIV]

Masturbation is a mortal sin. It isn’t debatable. It doesn’t matter what “most of the world thinks”, it matters whether or not it is sinful.

Anyone who encourages masturbation is foolish. Masturbation increases lustful feelings. It is like a drug, the more you do it, the more difficult it is to give up.The more you masturbate, the more likely you are to look at pornography, or engage in lustful immoral thoughts. The more you do those things, the more likely you are to objectify women, and the more difficult it will be for you not to think of women in impure ways every time you see them.

Masturbation can be overcome. It just takes a few weeks of hard work, and then you will be over it forever.

It is by it’s nature hedonistic.

 

[Whalstib]

OK.

Now aside from the Church says so (which is enough for me) How come it Can be debated…like it or not where other sins really can’t?

I don’t see many liar threads or stealing threads but masturbation is being discussed. Some are paying the price. Young men who really struggle with it.

I didn’t know of it’s “sin” when younger so had quite a history with it way back when. Your right it takes just a short but terrific effort to overcome for long periods of time but if your older like me while even the struggle great it’s nothing compared to what I went through when younger.

I hate to think of all the young men who leave the Church for such a reason. My gosh! To equate it with killing and adultery which in and of themselves ARE horrible sins and masturbation “may” lead to other sins…

Maybe it’s time our clergy really sat down and defined it. Yes it can be venial. Yes it can be mortal…grave matter. I’m sure there’s folks here who never came close to violating another commandment who were active in masturbation.

I’ve been able to masturbate with no visuals, no lust, just feeling for what it is. Not desirous of anything else. Years ago It was with pornography. Are both equally disordered?

W

 

[Whalstib]

Masturbation is a mortal sin. It isn’t debatable. It doesn’t matter what “most of the world thinks”, it matters whether or not it is sinful.

Anyone who encourages masturbation is foolish. Masturbation increases lustful feelings. It is like a drug, the more you do it, the more difficult it is to give up.The more you masturbate, the more likely you are to look at pornography, or engage in lustful immoral thoughts. The more you do those things, the more likely you are to objectify women, and the more difficult it will be for you not to think of women in impure ways every time you see them.

Masturbation can be overcome. It just takes a few weeks of hard work, and then you will be over it forever.

It is by it’s nature hedonistic.

Actually it can be venial…at least one particular holy Father explained to me!

The slippery slope theory is valid but many things can lead to bad ends that aren’t sins in and of themselves. And in fact what you mention is not 100% so in each case.

My “fallen” moments the past few years have been in the nature of trying to get to sleep before a big day and having fought it for a couple hours just quickly rubbing one out. These were “pishawed” as venial by father. Sins; yes, mortal; no.

Do you really feel comfortable condemning young men equating this with a murder? Stealing? Adultery?

One thing that evades this discussion is that the spirit is opposed to the flesh. Masturbation will hinder spiritual growth as will any carnal or lustful desires of the world. Since the real ultimate goal of the Catholic Church through this life or Purgatory is to make us ALL saints and enter heaven there are any number of things in the way.

I’ve confessed my masturbation. I’ve never confessed my running a red light which could put many souls at risk. Maybe a bus full of kids who masturbated! Who would be worse off? Who would feel more guilty if we just missed and pass each other?

W

 

[LilyM]

People don’t always understand WHY masturbation, in some cases, is a mortal sin, but lots of folks have similar issues with missing Mass, failing to confess to a priest, artificial birth control and such topics.

There’s all the world of difference between a completely natural (and unaided by you) nocturnal emission and masturbation, which is defined as deliberate genital stimulaton accompanied by sexual arousal.

And to say ‘we’re all gonna do it, why is it sinful’ is beside the point. Don’t we all lie (big or small porkies) at some point in our lives? Does that make it no longer a sin? Don’t we all overeat on occasion? Does that make it any less gluttony when we do? Don’t we all sometimes give in to laziness and fail to do some task - is that any the less sloth?

 

[true_believer]

I don’t understand what you are really trying to get at here. Are you trying to get someone else to say that masturbation isn’t a sin so that you don’t have to feel guilty for it? Because the truth is that it is one of the most harmful sins. Although it doesn’t physically harm a person in the same way that rape, murder, and other crimes do; it hurts a person spiritually.

When one masturbates, they are prone to lustful thoughts and the objectification of either women (if you are a guy) or of men (if you are a gal). It also becomes habitual for many people, which makes it so that once the devil has led you into this temptation, he is able to keep a death grasp on your soul.

If you want, you can turn to any number of Paul’s letters in the New Testament to read about how sexual immorality (which does include masturbation) is the worst of the sins, because a person is disrespecting their own body which is a temple for Christ.

 

[teachccd]

So let me get this straight: 1)A person tortures, rapes and kills a ten year old child; 2) A person stimulates themselves for one minute.

Both of these are seen as equally offensive to God?? Yes, pornography, lust and many sexual activities outside of marriage are seriously sinful and must be avoided. But I hardly see masturbation as one of the worst sins that one can commit.

Masturbation is not debatable. The CCC does state that there are circumstances whereby the culpability is diminished or even removed. I would hardly find that exception for a person who tortures, rapes and kills a child.

As Catholics, we tend to carry this HUGE bolder of sexual guilt that we never put it down to see the other bolders for us to carry. Like, perhaps, the many social injustices, prejudices, and actions undermining the dignity of the human person which can be as equally damaging as sexual sin.

I will not deviate from Church teachings on this topic but there are MANY other topics (as the OP stated) that deserve an equal amount of time on this platform. I watched a mother and daughter talk throughout the entire Mass this morning. Maybe neither of them committed a sexual sin but were they o.k. to receive the Eucharist? I’m not here to judge…just an observation…teachccd

 

[LilyM]

So let me get this straight: 1)A person tortures, rapes and kills a ten year old child; 2) A person stimulates themselves for one minute.

Both of these are seen as equally offensive to God?? Yes, pornography, lust and many sexual activities outside of marriage are seriously sinful and must be avoided. But I hardly see masturbation as one of the worst sins that one can commit.

Masturbation is not debatable. The CCC does state that there are circumstances whereby the culpability is diminished or even removed. I would hardly find that exception for a person who tortures, rapes and kills a child.

As Catholics, we tend to carry this HUGE bolder of sexual guilt that we never put it down to see the other bolders for us to carry. Like, perhaps, the many social injustices, prejudices, and actions undermining the dignity of the human person which can be as equally damaging as sexual sin.

I will not deviate from Church teachings on this topic but there are MANY other topics (as the OP stated) that deserve an equal amount of time on this platform. I watched a mother and daughter talk throughout the entire Mass this morning. Maybe neither of them committed a sexual sin but were they o.k. to receive the Eucharist? I’m not here to judge…just an observation…teachccd

Who says a sin has to be the worst or among the worst one can commit to effectively sever your relationship with God?

One small bullet can be just as fatal to your body as many large bullets. So can you kill your soul even with relatively small-seeming or unimportant-seeming sins.

Anyone who’s in a marriage can tell you that it is sometimes the small things that truly reveal how much a person cares or doesn’t care about their spouse. So it is in our relationship with God.

See, it’s about what GOD has revealed as being important to Him, not what looks important to you. And since sexual sins would have to be, as Our Lady said at Fatima, probably the most common mortal sins of all, they are important as being the cause of destruction for so many souls.

 

[CapIV]

Of course rape and masturbation aren’t equally sinful.

Thomas Aquinas himself said that masturbation was the least grave of sexual sins, but this doesn’t make it not sinful.

Masturbation is sinful because it is hedonistic and perverts natural sexuality. It the short term, it is very hard to see specific negative effects that masturbation has, but in the long term, it can do great harm.

Masturbation keeps one’s sexual appetite high when it should not be. If you are not married, you should be working to suppress your sexual urges, not embrace them. Even if you are in a marriage, one ought to work to exercise sexual restraint when appropriate in order to avoid sexual problems in a marriage. While sex and pleasure are important and good parts of a marriage, they are not the only parts. If you focus on only sex and pleasure, your marriage is doomed to fail. Masturbation is a sole focus on pleasure. Therefore, hedonistic by definition. And hedonism is not the proper function of man.

If you just indulge yourself whenever you feel the urge, who’s to say that you don’t indulge your other urges on demand?

 

[CapIV]

And by the way, if you are a Catholic, “because the Church says so” should be a good enough reason. Most Catholics don’t understand why the Church does anything, but they have faith that the Church knows what she is doing.

Read John 10: 1-10.

Sheep do not always know why the shepherd leads them in the direction that he does. Sheep do not always know why the shepherd tells them not to eat certain things.

The shepherd always has the interest of his flock at heart. The same with the Church, you ought to realize this.

Many people rationalize their use of birth control, divorce, or even abortion by saying, “I don’t see the harm in it”.

 

[teachccd]

Who says a sin has to be the worst or among the worst one can commit to effectively sever your relationship with God?

One small bullet can be just as fatal to your body as many large bullets. So can you kill your soul even with relatively small-seeming or unimportant-seeming sins.

Anyone who’s in a marriage can tell you that it is sometimes the small things that truly reveal how much a person cares or doesn’t care about their spouse. So it is in our relationship with God.

See, it’s about what GOD has revealed as being important to Him, not what looks important to you. And since sexual sins would have to be, as Our Lady said at Fatima, probably the most common mortal sins of all, they are important as being the cause of destruction for so many souls.

I was commenting on True Believer’s post but yes one bullet can kill. But the CCC puts on a bullet proof vest for some who commit the sin of masturbation. This is the teaching of our Church, not my teaching. God has revealed many things (cf. ten commandments) that are offensive to HIm. He did not write the sixth commandment with extra large letters.

If you fully read my post you would have seen that I am stating that many other issues offend God but we tend to zero in on sexual sins. People are starving, killing each other, permitting slavery, lying, stealing, denying the existence of God, sticking their parents in old age homes, along with a whole slew of destruction to the dignity of the human being.

I’m not undermining Church teaching just pointing out that we may need to pull our heads out of the sand of sexual sin so that we can see the many other areas that go unnoticed. Doesn’t seem to me like anyone really cared if Adolph Hitler masturbated. He may have and it could have been a mortal sin if all three conditions were met, but as we see in extreme examples…we need to open our eyes and expand our concerns.

Do I make any sense?? I am not dissenting from Church teaching. I’m only expounding on the OP’s efforts to expand our understanding of all serious or grave matter and the conditions required for them to be mortal…God Bless…teachccd

 

[ccross77]

Masterbation, I believe, is a leading cause of divorce. Let me explain.

When I am “in the mood”, I am alot nicer to my wife and am pretty much willing to do anything for her. I am more willing to listen to her(even ifs its about aunt sally again). If she does not feel like making love than maybe I dont deserve it at the moment. It only makes me want her more to wait. This makes for great communication as to anything she may be mad at me for. Once we discuss the issue, we get along better, understand each other better, and hopefully, have better “relations” than one could possible have alone.
Now, if I choose to masterbate instead, A big part of my ambition goes away. She may even be rightfully mad at me for something I didnt realize and now I may never know. I truly believe that keeping ALL sex between you and your wife/husband is the best way to stay close.

Now, as far as premarital masterbation goes. I did it too when I was young but as was stated above, the more I did it, the more I wanted, leading to finding a girlfriend that would do it with me.

If you stop altogether, the nocturnal emmisions will still happen for a while, but once your body realizes it is not sexually active it will slow your hormones to a halt. And next thing you know you are looking for a woman to love, not just use.

 

[LilyM]

I was commenting on True Believer’s post but yes one bullet can kill. But the CCC puts on a bullet proof vest for some who commit the sin of masturbation. This is the teaching of our Church, not my teaching. God has revealed many things (cf. ten commandments) that are offensive to HIm. He did not write the sixth commandment with extra large letters.

If you fully read my post you would have seen that I am stating that many other issues offend God but we tend to zero in on sexual sins. People are starving, killing each other, permitting slavery, lying, stealing, denying the existence of God, sticking their parents in old age homes, along with a whole slew of destruction to the dignity of the human being.

I’m not undermining Church teaching just pointing out that we may need to pull our heads out of the sand of sexual sin so that we can see the many other areas that go unnoticed. Doesn’t seem to me like anyone really cared if Adolph Hitler masturbated. He may have and it could have been a mortal sin if all three conditions were met, but as we see in extreme examples…we need to open our eyes and expand our concerns.

Do I make any sense?? I am not dissenting from Church teaching. I’m only expounding on the OP’s efforts to expand our understanding of all serious or grave matter and the conditions required for them to be mortal…God Bless…teachccd

Reread my post. I’m not at all criticising you, neither am I suggesting that you’re dissenting or anything.

But like I said, sexual sins are more important in one sense than any others, because people commit more of them and far more often than any other mortal sin. That doesn’t just come from Our Lady in Fatima, statistics bear it out. One single solitary Adolf Hitler v 90% of men and 75% of women masturbating and something like forty percent (or is it more?) of all married people being unfaithful, not to mention the other sexual sins.

It’s kinda like, since cancer and heart disease are the most common killers of people in America today, they get more publicity (and NEED more publicity because eliminating these diseases saves more lives ultimately) than those much rarer fatal diseases.

Why would we not focus most on the most common behaviours which kill souls, ie sexual sins, since by doing so we will save the greatest number of souls?

Hope that makes sense for ya

 

[Jofantioch]

So let me get this straight: 1)A person tortures, rapes and kills a ten year old child; 2) A person stimulates themselves for one minute.QUOTE]

Torture = **ability to dehumanize another person in your mind **completely (this takes much practice), ability to inflict pain on another creature, premeditation, training/study, and a host of other sins. This is a HUGE conglomerate sin. One doesn’t torture without lots of sin behind that act.

Rape = objectification of women, fantasies/masturbation that is similar which builds over a period of time, refusal to see the woman as human, ability to hurt a human being as they openly protest the harm you are doing, ability to derive sexual fulfillment from another’s pain, etc.

Killing a 10-year-old: 1. sometimes this is an accident and therefore a tragedy and not a sin. 2. seeing a child as a possession and not a person, ability to hurt a human being while knowing that you are ending their life, premeditation (sometimes), lack of control over one’s own angry feelings/impulses, etc.

Masturbation = treatment of one’s own body as a sexual mate and refusing the plan of complimentarity among the sexes, objectification of women either particularly or in general through fantasy, either a lie to one’s self that a relationship is being built with a person who is not there or the **ability to objectify/dehumanize a future wife/women as extensions of your fantasy instead of real women. **

Note that all of these sins require dehumanization of others.

Also, you might be setting yourself up for…

Premature ejaculation: masturbation practice has made thousands (maybe millions of men) used to ejaculating the moment they enter a woman (the climax of their fantasy). This problem takes years to undo, if ever.

Sexual Dysfunction in marriage: I can’t tell you how many women have been turned off by their husband’s “need to get some” rather than their need to connect with their wives. If you get in the habit of “unloading”, your future wife might just feel like urinal.

Read “The good news about sex and marriage” and “Theology of the Body”

 

[teachccd]

Reread my post. I’m not at all criticising you, neither am I suggesting that you’re dissenting or anything.

But like I said, sexual sins are more important in one sense than any others, because people commit more of them and far more often than any other mortal sin. That doesn’t just come from Our Lady in Fatima, statistics bear it out. One single solitary Adolf Hitler v 90% of men and 75% of women masturbating and something like forty percent (or is it more?) of all married people being unfaithful, not to mention the other sexual sins.

It’s kinda like, since cancer and heart disease are the most common killers of people in America today, they get more publicity (and NEED more publicity because eliminating these diseases saves more lives ultimately) than those much rarer fatal diseases.

Why would we not focus most on the most common behaviours which kill souls, ie sexual sins, since by doing so we will save the greatest number of souls?

Hope that makes sense for ya

Yes, it does. thank you…teachccd

 

[hasikelee]

Hi,

It occurs to me that of all the sins I can imagine especially those which are regarded as “grave” …masturbation isn’t universally seen that way. Not even close.

Most mortal sins such as murder, stealing lying etc can easily be accepted as 100% wrong despite mitigating circumstances that would have to be extreme. You just can’t make a good argument fopr them at all!

But masturbation. Most of the world considers it a bad habit at worst. Many an actually very good thing In fact I can come up several reasons where it can actually BE good! Let’s separate it from lust and pornography. Of course it can be as perverted as any human proclivity. In fact it can run the gambit from simple quick release to pornagraphic extremes.

First of all I doubt I will steal, kill, commit adultery, lies (maybe a white lie) all not a big deal to resist. But as a single male I can guarantee I will have a “release” in the form of nocturnal emission or I’ve even had them semi awake with little stimulation. Men have them under many circumstances.

So since it’s inevatable that I WILL how can it be a sin? Once again sure combine with pornography or lust or more perverted natures I agree whole heartedly. Are there rules to this? If I can just reach down and quickly release the tension on very rare occations…

Aside note I recall having a relationship with a woman where we decided to be chaste and not have sex. On 2 occations our kissing became so intense both of us were weak in the knees. I said one more kiss and I will “release”! I got the kiss and “released”. And it prevented our adultery. At the point we were we weren’t going to separate corners ok.! yes we went too far but didn’t know our limits till past them.

Once again you could leave me with a million dollars and I’d not get the urge to steal. Leave me with your wife and i won’t touch her. Wouldn’t hurt a fly much less kill anyone.

So if I feel like I’m gonna find some pornography on the web if I don’t get relief…My imagination might start to go towards your wife…etc…wouldn’t a more innocent release be actually prescribed to the weak?

Thanks,

W

Pish Posh. Every sin is up for argument when you have a lifestyle that wants to support the habit.

Every justification is possible for someone who wants to do it. Every lie has a little nugget of truth, a little appealing commercial…asking for your agreement and cooperation.

Abortion?
Mercy-killing for the disabled?
Euthanasia?
Polygamy?
Homosexual unions?
Divororce and remarriage without an anullment?
Cohabitation?
Birth control?
Premarital sex?

 

[Whalstib]

Pish Posh. Every sin is up for argument when you have a lifestyle that wants to support the habit.

Every justification is possible for someone who wants to do it. Every lie has a little nugget of truth, a little appealing commercial…asking for your agreement and cooperation.

Abortion?
Mercy-killing for the disabled?
Euthanasia?
Polygamy?
Homosexual unions?
Divororce and remarriage without an anullment?
Cohabitation?
Birth control?
Premarital sex?

Now this is my point…

So much of it is about “what can happen next…”

Also some further thought on dehumanizing and I feel it doesn’t de humanize, it de Christs!

What I mean is we are sexual beings. We differ in ways, male female, that is very appealing to each other. Our race depends upon sex and a healthy sex drive.

But spiritually speaking especially in the Catholic Church but even other “monastic” situations NO sex is part of the path. You want to get more spiritual, be less carnal on all levels!

So is this masturbation thing more about being more Christ like? OF course it is…but why does it bear more weight than numerous other things. I say watching TV cop dramas can lead you farther astray. Being too succesful financially can also hinder a spiritual life (easy for a camel…etc…) does that make them sinful?

I suppose one could label ANYTHING that doesn’t lead directly to Christ as a sin strictly speaking…and shouldn’t that be enough without condemning people to hell for masturbation?

W

 

[Whalstib]

Interesting reading!
acts17-11.com/dialogs_masturbation.html

It’s true despite stern to the point warnings of every kind masturbation is not mentione din the Bible. Its the thoughts…imagery…lust

Remember Jesus was merciful and compassionate towards a woman caught in the act of adultery, but he was scathing in his devastating rebukes of the arrogant self-righteousness of the Pharisees.

And why is this sentance is usally deleted in quotes from the Cathechism:
To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

So please stop comparing masturbation with euthanasia or abortion. If anything it lessens those sins when used in the same sentence!

W

 

[LilyM]

Interesting reading!
acts17-11.com/dialogs_masturbation.html

It’s true despite stern to the point warnings of every kind masturbation is not mentione din the Bible. Its the thoughts…imagery…lust

Oh yes it is - ever read of Onan in the OT? Was his sin wrongful lust (he was in fact trying to avoid consummating his marriage, so the opposite of lustful) or was it the actual act?

 

[Whalstib]

Oh yes it is - ever read of Onan in the OT? Was his sin wrongful lust (he was in fact trying to avoid consummating his marriage, so the opposite of lustful) or was it the actual act?

Gen 38:6…

And Judah took a wife for Er his first-born, and her name was Tamar.
[7] But Er, Judah’s first-born, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.
[8] Then Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.”
[9] But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother.
[10] And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD, and he slew him also.

Onan had intercourse, this wasn’t masturbation by any stretch.

W