Is NFP more of a cross than a blessing to you?

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Xantippe said:
Let me try again.

If a couple is good at NFP and then the wife develops a severe health problem, that couple can reasonably expect 99% effectiveness if they are very conservative and patient.

I can’t promise that kind of success to a couple that has not previously had success with NFP before the wife developed a serious health problem.

When I was talking about 99%, it was not a promise for the public at large, but for couples that have had some measure of success with NFP.
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Well, okay. But we are kind of outside my original example though. I still would likely choose abstinence, cause it would really be terrible thing to live with if my wife died. Refusal might not be licit in your specific example.
 
whm said:
Well, okay. But we are kind of outside my original example though. I still would likely choose abstinence, cause it would really be terrible thing to live with if my wife died. Refusal might not be licit in your specific example.
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And total abstinence would be a completely valid decision. But I guess the point is that it’s not really necessary. Using the absolute strictest NFP rules, pregnancy is very, very, very unlikely. Practically impossible.
 
sailor28 said:
You can believe that if it validates your value/belief system. The truth is the majority of priests don’t hold the hard line on the teaching. Not because they want to make life easier for everyone but because they, like my husband and I, have studied the teaching and theologically and philosophically it does not hold up. Not to mention the damage it does to some marriages. It is not reasonable to expect a couple to submit to something they #1 see has theologically incorrect and #2 see it is harmful to the unitive aspects of marriage. I can not violate my conscience on this matter. I am ready and willing to stand before God on it.

The church’s teaching on birth control has been an enormous pastoral failure. The church’s insistence on this has lost her credibility. 80% don’t disagree with teaching because they are all ignorant and uninformed. Personally, I don’t think any human being or institution is infallible.
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I pray that you receive the Holy Spirit’s gift of understand and come to know and believe the Catholic church IS the true church established by Jesus Christ. I can understand your personal opinion and respect them but we need to be very careful in presenting a “cafeteria Catholic” public position.
 
gardenswithkids said:
Sailor, perhaps you don’t realize it, but posts like yours makes following the Church teachings much harder. Do you remember the part in the gospels where the soldiers mock Christ as he’s up on the cross? It’s like you’re jeering at those who follow the Church teachings with “Come on down off your cross!”

That’s exactly how if felt to me when one priest told me we didn’t need to follow the Church teachings. I felt like I was being mocked. As it turned out that particular priest had his own difficulty with following the Church teachings on chastity.

Your conscience permits you to ignore and violate Church teachings, but that’s you and your conscience. Where does such comment leave some of us Catholics? Not everyone’s conscience allows artificial contraception, so that “follow your conscience” mantra still leaves some Catholics out hanging on crosses while other Catholics jeer and taunt.

Perhaps the greatest paradox of Christianity is that* the Cross is a blessing.* Fellow Catholics, hang onto your crosses! Those of you who haven’t yet done so, pick up your cross and follow Him.
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Peace be with you Gardenwithkids. Please be assured that I am not encouraging you to come down off any cross that God himself has put you on. Nor I am jeering or taunting you. I am speaking honestly about my own decisions and choices. There is a peace that comes when you are obedient to what God wants you to do. Rest in that. Doing God’s will brings you peace beyond understanding regardless of how you interpret someone else’s choices. Know that I carry plenty of crosses, I keep the ones that my Creator has given me. The ones not put there by God I take down.

You can choose to submit your choices re: sexual ethics to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. I am not able to do that and not go against what my conscience knows what is best. Please don’t mock me. You need to be doing what your conscience tells you do to. Don’t let other peoples comments decide how you are going to feel about your choice.
 
Xantippe said:
But at the same time makes life less hard and dangerous.

In the good old days, if a woman had a life-threatening health condition where pregnancy could kill her (and there are actually more than a few of those), the choices were:
  1. sin
and
  1. total abstinence.
Currently, her choices are:
  1. sin
  2. total abstinence
and
  1. NFP (with some risk of pregnancy)
I have to say that I think that is an improvement, especially since one can tweak NFP to be more effective, depending on one’s level of need.
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Are you sure a woman can’t be permitted to use birth control pills if her life is in danger by getting pregnant again?
The Church can’t be that rigid!
 
masondoggy said:
The Church does not require couples to get a dispensation in order to use NFP to limit their family size. All that is required is that couples discern and ensure that their reasons are not selfish. Other than that, it’s up to the couple to decide whether their reasons to avoid are “serious” enough. No need to get permission from the Church. (which is not to say that a couple couldn’t consult a priest for guidance, but that is not required)
QUOTE]

I meant a dispensation to use birth control pills.
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truetofaith said:
There is something seriously wrong with the Church’s teaching…judging by all the frustration & fear I’m reading about on this Topic! :eek:
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There seems to be posters who are frustrated but I don’t get the sense there is fear. What fear do you sense?
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
Absolutely not! How can you think that the Church could allow that option!?:eek:

This is crystal clear Catholic theology that most people should know!
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This is why a person in doubt contact his/her parish priest and follow up with the Diocese. There just MAY be dispensation that is not talked about but has been given before.🙂
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
Ha! Yes, whenever a public struggles with the Church teaching, it is usually the Church that is wrong, not fallen mankind…:rolleyes:

I suppose the Church is wrong on everything of which there is frustration…
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I’m not taking issue with any of the 10 Commandments…only with making love to a wife without worrying about getting another child …especially if it would be harmful to the woman’s health.
 
808Catholic said:
This is why a person in doubt contact his/her parish priest and follow up with the Diocese. There just MAY be dispensation that is not talked about but has been given before.🙂
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Nope.

It is, however, fine to treat medical problems with birth control pills and a hysterectomy, if necessary. That’s standard Catholic bioethics. (For instance, if a woman is having uncontrollable bleeding, birth control pills can put her back on track. I’ve done that course of treatment myself.) But it’s important that the “problem” being solved is not the woman’s healthy fertility.

(I am not an ethicist myself, but I’m about two degrees of separation from every Catholic ethicist in North America.)
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
Absolutely not! How can you think that the Church could allow that option!?:eek:

This is crystal clear Catholic theology that most people should know!
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There are a lot of priests who would tell a couple, hey, you have 3 kids & can’t afford any more, or it’s dangerous to have more, so let your conscience be your guide & use birth control pills.
 
808Catholic said:
There seems to be posters who are frustrated but I don’t get the sense there is fear. What fear do you sense?
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Fear of hell if they use birth control pills & if using the NFP…fear they will get another child that may can’t afford or may harm the mother’s health.
 
truetofaith said:
I’m not taking issue with any of the 10 Commandments…only with making love to a wife without worrying about getting another child …especially if it would be harmful to the woman’s health.
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But that creates an unnatural division for what sex IS.

(Not to mention it’s far from guaranteed that contraceptives will prevent pregnancy. I had four different women, completely unsolicited, inform me of their “pill babies” when I was pregnant with my second. One of them was a nurse.)

Abstinence is the only “guarantee.” We have the moral option to abstain completely or abstain periodically (NFP). Abstinence is hard. It’s a cross.

I can’t speak toward other couples’ reasons for abstaining, but I know for my husband and me it would take us a LOT to be willing to really practice abstinence - it would probably have to be a matter of life or death. I could not tolerate having to sleep in separate rooms, for example, which several couples have stated here that they do. I’d rather endure the hardships of pregnancy, delivery, and having another mouth to feed. I know we won’t starve. We have built up a good support system to help us. I’ve learned how to live incredibly frugally. I tend to handle the stress of pregnancy and the newborn phase pretty well, even though I tend toward PPD.

That said, I am glad I know how to chart, because you never know what will happen.
 
truetofaith said:
There are a lot of priests who would tell a couple, hey, you have 3 kids & can’t afford any more, or it’s dangerous to have more, so let your conscience be your guide & use birth control pills.
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Yes, and that does not make it correct or less sinful.
I am nor sure your point other than that the Church could do a better job in formations of priests…

Do you wish to start a thread on why ABC is an evil or why the pill cannot be used for contraception in Catholicism? Or you could read the thousands of threads detailing the theology of this concept.
 
truetofaith said:
I’m sure the Church gives a dispensation for special circumstances, such as yours. Ask your Pastor or Bishop.
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Is is true there is no dispensation for birth control.

However, the majority of priests will agree with common sense. Basically, that God does not insist that a woman to whom pregnancy is life threatening continue to be open to having a baby every time she has sex. Of course, they are unable to talk about it publicly. But if you surveyed the priests privately the majority would agree that birth control should be used in some situations.
 
808Catholic said:
I pray that you receive the Holy Spirit’s gift of understand and come to know and believe the Catholic church IS the true church established by Jesus Christ. I can understand your personal opinion and respect them but we need to be very careful in presenting a “cafeteria Catholic” public position.
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I pray that you also receive the gift of wisdom from the Holy Spirit. That you may come to see that someone can disagree with the church and still love God deeply.

I don’t call myself a cafeteria Catholic. I’m sure everyone here at CAF has things they emphasis or ignore in Catholic teaching which goes way beyond contraception.

I speak out because I have seen marriages be harmed by NFP.

Couples need to decide if their cross is from God or from Pharisees who ask them to carry heavy burdens that they are not suppose to carry.
 
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