Is our free choice real

[Vico]

You cannot be in all those states, holy, justice and still make a mistake. In simple word, they were either created perfect meaning that they could not do mistake or they were created imperfect which means that they eventually make mistake. Consider this argument as a sword which cuts from both sides. Tell me which part you are going to touch, have an argument against.

Then you can say they were created imperfect. However having original justice provided by supernatural grace and the preternatural gifts, they were capable of avoiding sin. What is supernatural is not a natural capability of humans. What is preternatural is natural but is an extension of normal human capabilty.

 

[STT]

Then you can say they were created imperfect. However having original justice provided by supernatural grace and the preternatural gifts, they were capable of avoiding sin. What is supernatural is not a natural capability of humans. What is preternatural is natural but is an extension of normal human capabilty.

What do you mean with capable? They would eventually sin since everything is just matter of time. You cannot live for eternity and be sinless.

 

[Vico]

What do you mean with capable? They would eventually sin since everything is just matter of time. You cannot live for eternity and be sinless.

Per Catholic teaching, the angels that did not fall with the devil will live for eternity and be sinless. Jesus Christ is also sinless, and the Blessed Virgin Mary.

However, I can understand that not being Catholic this is not accepted.

Adam and Eve had such perfect rectitude of body and mind that they were not capable of being deceived until after the fall had already started.

Now, by capable I mean to emphasize the Catholic teaching that the grace of God is sufficient to keep a person free from mortal sin. Mortal sin being a grave matter willfully done (thought, word, deed, omission) knowing that it is sinful. St. Thomas Aquinas taught that Eve sinned by interior pride.

Though the woman was deceived before she sinned in deed, still it was not till she had already sinned by interior pride. For Augustine says (Gen. ad lit. xi, 30) that “the woman could not have believed the words of the serpent, had she not already acquiesced in the love of her own power, and in a presumption of self-conceit.”

newadvent.org/summa/1094.htm

 

[BobCatholic]

You can call not being created god but human an imperfection if you will.

Nope. I do not consider being human an imperfection.

Mary was created perfect and IS human. Adam and Eve were not.

The Church teaches that our first parents were constituted in an original “state of holiness and justice”, that they had the supernatural gift of habitual grace and the preternatural gifts of infused knowledge, immortality, and integrity (freedom from concupiscence).

Yes, but they still had imperfections.

So, we read from St. Thomas Aquinas that the first sin was an irascible sin rather than a sensual passion sin.

So irascible sounds like the imperfection was pride.

 

[STT]

Per Catholic teaching, the angels that did not fall with the devil will live for eternity and be sinless. Jesus Christ is also sinless, and the Blessed Virgin Mary.

I understand that this is part of your teaching but you need to provide a reasonable argument for it. All I am saying that a imperfect being is **eventually **subject to sin. I stress on “eventually” to convey this fact that everything is matter of time when it comes to committing a sin.

 

[Vico]

I understand that this is part of your teaching but you need to provide a reasonable argument for it. All I am saying that a imperfect being is **eventually **subject to sin. I stress on “eventually” to convey this fact that everything is matter of time when it comes to committing a sin.

There is no proof that* every* imperfect being eventually sins mortally.

 

[BobCatholic]

There is no proof that* every* imperfect being eventually sins mortally.

And there is no proof, that an imperfect being, without the grace of God, eventually goes to heaven.

And there is no proof, that an imperfect being, can become perfect on their own.

In either situation, the imperfect being cannot please God.

So, how does an imperfect being please God? Impossible.

 

[Vico]

And there is no proof, that an imperfect being, without the grace of God, eventually goes to heaven.

And there is no proof, that an imperfect being, can become perfect on their own.

In either situation, the imperfect being cannot please God.

So, how does an imperfect being please God? Impossible.

The Catholic teaching is that a human does not have the means to salvation without the grace of God, included in the dogmas of faith below (from Lugwig Ott.)

1. Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation. (De fide.)
2. Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification. (De fide.)
3. The justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid all sins, even venial sins, without the special privilege of the grace of God. (De fide.)

 

[fred_conty]

Can the choice between ecstasy (Heaven) and torment (Hell) be considered a real free choice. Is it not more “do it my way or else”.
I hope this is the right forum.
Hope all is well for everyone.

I believe Adam and Eve had the idea that there is more than one way to get what you want, and they failed.

It isn’t like we are being told in a narrow dasterly way that you “better watch out”. Quite the contrary, if that were the case then we would be left to our own devices with indifference.

But it is precisely because we are cared for and loved that the way for us to be successful is pointed out. And any other way simply is our arrigance that we think we know more than our loving God, who, at his expense, became one with us to show us kindness and humility.

 

[STT]

There is no proof that* every* imperfect being eventually sins mortally.

Adam and Eve did it eventually so everything is matter of time.

 

[BobCatholic]

The Catholic teaching is that a human does not have the means to salvation without the grace of God, included in the dogmas of faith below (from Lugwig Ott.)

1. Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation. (De fide.)
2. Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification. (De fide.)
3. The justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid all sins, even venial sins, without the special privilege of the grace of God. (De fide.)

Precisely.

We are created so imperfectly, so pitifully, so broken, that the only way for us to please him is for him to do it for us. In other words, only God can please himself.

 

[STT]

Precisely.

We are created so imperfectly, so pitifully, so broken, that the only way for us to please him is for him to do it for us. In other words, only God can please himself.

 

[Vico]

Precisely.

We are created so imperfectly, so pitifully, so broken, that the only way for us to please him is for him to do it for us. In other words, only God can please himself.

God does not do it for us, but makes it a real possibility for us. To be saved we must choose to cooperate with the grace of God, so it is not merely pleasing Himself.

 

[Vico]

Adam and Eve did it eventually so everything is matter of time.

That is not a proof that “every imperfect being eventually sins mortally”. We hold that there are angels that did not fall and that the Blessed Virgin Mary did not, and the Jesus Christ did not. They are all beings.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. 266 Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”. 267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: “The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing.” 268

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. 269 This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: “You will be like God.” 270 The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”. 271

266 Cf. Gen 3:1-5; Wis 2:24.
267 Cf Jn 8:44; Rev 12:9.
268 Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 800.
269 Cf. 2 Pet 2:4.
270 Gen 3:5.
271 1 Jn 3:8; Jn 8:44.

 

[STT]

That is not a proof that “every imperfect being eventually sins mortally”. We hold that there are angels that did not fall and that the Blessed Virgin Mary did not, and the Jesus Christ did not. They are all beings.

So you are trying to tell me that imperfect being cannot sin!

Moreover the history is poorly written and we can never be aware of people personal lives. Who knows? Could historians be inside minds of people, Jesus for example, to see when they sin? We also don’t know whether angels falls or not now. It happened before then it can happen now.

 

[BobCatholic]

God does not do it for us, but makes it a real possibility for us. To be saved we must choose to cooperate with the grace of God, so it is not merely pleasing Himself.

This is what God’s grace is - his action. Not our action. His choice, not our choice. His working, not our working.

Nothing we can do WITHOUT HIS GRACE can please him.

Only God can please himself. We cannot - without his grace.

 

[Vico]

So you are trying to tell me that imperfect being cannot sin!

Moreover the history is poorly written and we can never be aware of people personal lives. Who knows? Could historians be inside minds of people, Jesus for example, to see when they sin? We also don’t know whether angels falls or not now. It happened before then it can happen now.

An imperfect being can sin because there is free will choice to do so, but some choose not to sin, yet it is with the help of God’s grace. Angels only make their choice once, due to their knowledge, which decision can never be changed.

Catholic dogma include:

• The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not * There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious (gratia vere et mere sufficiens. (De fide.)

 

[Vico]

This is what God’s grace is - his action. Not our action. His choice, not our choice. His working, not our working.

Nothing we can do WITHOUT HIS GRACE can please him.

Only God can please himself. We cannot - without his grace.

It takes both the grace of God and our will to be saved, per Catholic teaching. Also these are dogmas of faith:

• For the performance of a morally good action Sanctifying Grace is not required. (De fide.)
• God gives all the just sufficent grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)
• The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistable. (De fide.)
• There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious (gratia vere et mere sufficiens. (De fide.)

 

[STT]

An imperfect being can sin because there is free will choice to do so, but some choose not to sin, yet it is with the help of God’s grace. Angels only make their choice once, due to their knowledge, which decision can never be changed.

Good that you accept that an imperfect being can sin. So performing sin is just matter of time once you accept this fact and add the temptation into the account. We can resist temptation for a short period. Stronger the temptation shorter our resistance.

 

[Vico]

Good that you accept that an imperfect being can sin. So performing sin is just matter of time once you accept this fact and add the temptation into the account. We can resist temptation for a short period. Stronger the temptation shorter our resistance.

No, the period of sinning is a lifetime, and some are not even capable of sin during that time due to not having developed reason. Also, the grace of God strengthens a person against temptation so it is not just a matter of time.

It is possible for a person (an imperfect being) to not sin mortally (so the soul will not be lost).