Is our free choice real

[e_c]

My difficulty is explaining - God loves us so much he gave us free will to choose. But is it really free if the only alternative to choosing God is torment. It’s like being forced rather than having a real choice. Many Atheists/Humanists are “good people” by human standards but in rejecting the idea of God through the free will given by God they suffer torment for eternity. I’m sure they are not choosing eternal torment they just believe existing/existence is possible without God.

I’m sorry if I’m not being clear in what I’m asking.

It seems you are asking two different questions.

1. Are we forced to love God because of the repulsiveness of the alternative?
2. How is it that God could seemingly trick people into going to Hell?

Is this right?

 

[BobCatholic]

We exist in a fallen state, chasing after illusions and transient goods that can never fulfill.

And that is one reason I question how free our wills truly are. I’m not saying we have zero free will, but do we have SUFFICIENT free will?

We’re in a fallen state. Full of imperfections. I personally ask God to fix my imperfections so I can be perfect, but that never happens. It is like God does not want me to become perfect because he kept rejecting my pleas.

If we are stuck in the Matrix, and nobody gives us the choice to take the red pill or blue pill, how does one get out of that illusion? Will God really throw people into hell because they can’t, no matter how much they try, get perfect? I personally think his standards are too high if he’s not going to help us become perfect. The mission is impossible. Of course, for God, all things are possible, but if he doesn’t will it, then it is impossible.

 

[IWantGod]

Can the choice between ecstasy (Heaven) and torment (Hell) be considered a real free choice. Is it not more “do it my way or else”.
I hope this is the right forum.
Hope all is well for everyone.

It depends ones interpretation of hell. If hell is an arbitrary creation that didn’t have to exist but was created anyway because God wanted to eternally punish people for not choosing him, then God is a Moral Tyrant. and a torturer.

However. If hell is not created but rather is a state that necessarily arises out of ones decisions, then hell is simply a state of being that God is trying to save us from, and God is therefore not a moral tyrant. In this case, if we want to be eternally happy we have no choice but to be in an eternal relationship with love because without love we cannot be eternally fulfilled. Its just an ontological fact of our situation rather than an ultimatum that God is forcing on to us.

 

[BobCatholic]

It depends ones interpretation of hell. If hell is an arbitrary creation that didn’t have to exist but was created anyway because God wanted to eternally punish people for not choosing him, then God is a Moral Tyrant. and a torturer.

However. If hell is not created but rather is a state that necessarily arises out of ones decisions, then hell is simply a state of being that God is trying to save us from, and God is therefore not a moral tyrant. In this case, if we want to be eternally happy we have no choice but to be in an eternal relationship with love because without love we cannot be eternally fulfilled. Its just an ontological fact of our situation rather than an ultimatum that God is forcing on to us.

The question is not what hell is, but why did God create us imperfect so hell is not only a possibility, but also ridiculously easy to get into? But heaven is hard to get into.

 

[IWantGod]

The question is not what hell is, but why did God create us imperfect so hell is not only a possibility, but also ridiculously easy to get into? But heaven is hard to get into.

I’ll have to come back to you on that one.

 

[Vico]

The question is not what hell is, but why did God create us imperfect so hell is not only a possibility, but also ridiculously easy to get into? But heaven is hard to get into.

For man to express love means man must have free will. God created man perfect, but by choice Adam of Eve fell and brought us the consequences including concupiscence.

Have you read these? If 1/3 angels (stars) fell with the devil (great red dragon), then it would not be unexpected that 1/3 of mankind could fall also.

Revelation 12
3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems: 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son.

 

[oldcelt]

Free will can be real only if the creator does alter conditions to the benefit or detriment of anyone.

John

 

[po18guy]

Free will can be real only if the creator does alter conditions to the benefit or detriment of anyone.

John

You are not back in the Church yet? Had to ask. But, really…

Now, what if the “Creator” has pre-established alternative results of the choices? A Divine contingency. He set it in stone. We, being fickle beings, make the choice, either well or poorly.

 

[oldcelt]

You are not back in the Church yet? Had to ask. But, really…

Now, what if the “Creator” has pre-established alternative results of the choices? A Divine contingency. He set it in stone. We, being fickle beings, make the choice, either well or poorly.

Then the choices are not free. They are contingent on a divinely limited set of possibilities.

 

[po18guy]

Then the choices are not free. They are contingent on a divinely limited set of possibilities.

Two potentials are a choice, right? Heaven or hell? “You look wonderful, dear” or “Please put on some makeup!”

Choices have consequences, that’s all.

 

[Cheiron]

Some are punished for being exceptionally bad stewards, yes. But Hell isn’t just a fiery pit that all are subjected to. Maybe for some. But for some it just may be never obtaining participation in God’s divine life.

I think we also need to understand eternity after death. It’s not “for all times”. Eternity is outside of time. Thinking of it as punishment or even just absence of God for unending years doesn’t seem quite accurate.

If it’s a choice between God and absence from God, then that would solve the problem. It’s specifically the threat of torture and hellfire that I object to. That threat and punishment has also been taught for centuries. It seems to me very strange to abandon that now.

There’s also the issue with viewing our lives as our own and God as some external tyrant imposing Himself upon what is yours. But nothing you have is your own. Your being, the being of everything around you, the being of everything in the universe, exists only because God wills it to exist. This isn’t even the same as you making a robot and then expecting it to be yours forever just because you made it, it’s more akin to your imagination and the things inside it only existing so long as you choose to continue imagining it. Our existence is not ours intrinsically. We are all called to be stewards of God’s creation, including stewards of our own lives. They all belong to God already and have just been entrusted into our care for the time being.

I don’t recognize anyone’s claim to own me. Ownership of people is a bad thing. I know God permits slavery in the Bible, but that doesn’t make it right.

 

[oldcelt]

Two potentials are a choice, right? Heaven or hell? “You look wonderful, dear” or “Please put on some makeup!”

Choices have consequences, that’s all.

Choices are very different from free choices…free is unlimited, or it is not free…it is controlled. Free will must be absolute, uncontrolled or predetermined (predestination) or it is an illusion.
This one of the major reasons I am no longer a member of any denomination.

 

[JuanFlorencio]

Can the choice between ecstasy (Heaven) and torment (Hell) be considered a real free choice. Is it not more “do it my way or else”.
I hope this is the right forum.
Hope all is well for everyone.

No, I don’t think it is. A choice between one way or another to reach beatitude can be free; but, at least to me, not tending to my beatitude is not an option. Do you think it is to you, or to someone else? Would in your imagination someone be able to say “all I want for me, from the deepest of my being, is unhappiness”? But even in that case, were it true, such individual would not tend to unhappiness by free choice, but by nature.

 

[fbl9]

One buys a present for a loved one. Was it free will that they bought the present or did the love held, force one to buy the present?

 

[BobCatholic]

God created man perfect

Actually no, God created man imperfect.

Adam and Eve had one or more of the following imperfections:

• Pride : They thought they knew better than God.
• Fear : Maybe the serpent was 50 feet tall and very intimidating
• Naivete: They believe anything anyone tells them
• Stupid: They believed the stupid lies of the serpent.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Can the choice between ecstasy (Heaven) and torment (Hell) be considered a real free choice. Is it not more “do it my way or else”.
I hope this is the right forum.
Hope all is well for everyone.

Freedom exists only within the rules. As Dale Alqhuist says, “Freedom is glorious, but freedom is enjoyed within the rules. We are defined by our limits, like the frame around a picture. You can free a tiger from his bars, but you cannot free him from his stripes.”

There is difference between me saying ‘do it my way or else’ and God saying ‘do it my way or else.’ For in the first I may be merely expressing my opinion, which could be wrong, or even selfishly motivated. Whereas, in the second, it is not mere opinion but truth. If you were standing on a precipice and if someone were to tell you not to jump or else, that would be a truth that has consequences. But, with God it is even more plain and simple, for he created both the precipice and the truth, including the tiger’s stripes. And as such He has the unique privilege of being the true Light that guides men to true freedom. Not freedom from their stripes, but freedom from their self imposed chains. Freedom from the darkness of their sins to come into the light where there is freedom, joy and peace. This necessarily involves forgiveness and humility. For men can not be free from their sins without both.

 

[drac16]

Everyone wants to go to Heaven, they just don’t want God to be there. Man hates the idea of having to live life on God’s terms. If we could take everyone out of Hell and tell them to worship God and enter Heaven, most of them would scoff and jump back into Hell. Most people hate God; I’m convinced of it. Everyone is offered the chance to go to Heaven, but man’s ego gets in the way.

For this reason, most people fail to be saved. It’s not because they weren’t offered it, it’s because they don’t want to live a life of worship and selflessness.

 

[Vico]

Actually no, God created man imperfect.

Adam and Eve had one or more of the following imperfections:

• Pride : They thought they knew better than God.
• Fear : Maybe the serpent was 50 feet tall and very intimidating
• Naivete: They believe anything anyone tells them
• Stupid: They believed the stupid lies of the serpent.

You can call not being created god but human an imperfection if you will. Also free will an imperfection if you will, but free will is a necessity for expression of love.

The Church teaches that our first parents were constituted in an original “state of holiness and justice”, that they had the supernatural gift of habitual grace and the preternatural gifts of infused knowledge, immortality, and integrity (freedom from concupiscence). So, we read from St. Thomas Aquinas that the first sin was an irascible sin rather than a sensual passion sin. The dogma of the Church is that when we have that grace, it is sufficient.

 

[Aloysium]

One buys a present for a loved one. Was it free will that they bought the present or did the love held, force one to buy the present?

That’s one of the reasons we pray not to be tested. How do we behave when it is purely for the good of the other, with nothing in it for ourselves, as when we know we must love our enemy? That is when we truly exercise our free will. Failing, we turn to God, asking for mercy and the love necessary to do His will. Our will seeks a master. To whom do we submit; do we freely choose God or mammon?

 

[STT]

You can call not being created god but human an imperfection if you will. Also free will an imperfection if you will, but free will is a necessity for expression of love.

The Church teaches that our first parents were constituted in an original “state of holiness and justice”, that they had the supernatural gift of habitual grace and the preternatural gifts of infused knowledge, immortality, and integrity (freedom from concupiscence). So, we read from St. Thomas Aquinas that the first sin was an irascible sin rather than a sensual passion sin. The dogma of the Church is that when we have that grace, it is sufficient.

You cannot be in all those states, holy, justice and still make a mistake. In simple word, they were either created perfect meaning that they could not do mistake or they were created imperfect which means that they eventually make mistake. Consider this argument as a sword which cuts from both sides. Tell me which part you are going to touch, have an argument against.