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STT
Guest
But Adam and Eve had eternal life so it is obvious that they eventually make sin.
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ericc
Guest
That’s what the Devil has been doing all along. He pasted the “Heaven” sign over the “Hell” sign on his gates and let people peek in and they saw God wasn’t there!
And the Customer Service front line staff were all sweet lovely gorgeous young things that speak with tongues of honey!
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BobCatholic
Guest
I wasn’t talking about being saved, I was talking about pleasing God. Yes, those who are saved pleased God, but that’s not the whole picture.
When one is already in heaven, they know for sure that God is pleased with them. Here on this planet, there’s no way to do that. So, how does one please God and know it is actually happening, without God actually revealing it to them?
I’m NOT just going to “believe that it happened” - that I am actually pleasing God somehow, without any proof. How do I know it is not prideful self-delusion? No way to know.
This impacts “free choice” in a significant way.
If one knows that nothing they can do can please God, why would anyone bother making the choice? Then hell is the result and all because the poor soul didn’t know they COULD please God - but they didn’t know how, and gave up trying, because of prideful self-delusion that they can’t please God. How just is it for such a soul to go to hell? I don’t think it is just at all.
Faith is not “I’m going to believe something without any evidence at all” - no. That is not different than prideful self-delusion. Faith helps one see the evidence, and faith is a gift from God - God must reveal the evidence to them. God must reveal that they’re succeeding in pleasing God.
If God chooses not to reveal, here on this planet, that one is either pleasing God or not pleasing God, then prideful self-delusion is the ONLY choice.
Whether the prideful self-delusion is “I’m pleasing God” or “I’m not pleasing God” - either which way, game over, elevator down. There is no faith involved in either case - and without faith we cannot please God.
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Vico
Guest
Salvation is final but also spoken of in the present sense as if one were to die this moment.
God has chosen to give actual graces to humans, even before their conversion. The choice of a person to cooperate with that grace is good, it is also good for a person to avoid sin because of fear of hell. We see this last particularly in imperfect contrition. The free will is what makes it possible to take responsibility for one’s action.
Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit along with the other theological virtues, hope and charity.
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BrunoMaria
Guest
Beforehand: YES IT IS OUR FREE CHOICE!
in the opening post is said:
"do it my way or else“.
That’s wrong. It must be "do it the right and good way or else“.
God is good. Non-Christians can not comprehend this the natural way. If we look at the old cultures like the historic Greek; their gods where just as evil as people are, with all their good and bad characteristics such love and empathy, but also as greed, hate and the lot.
The one and only God is good only. Not as any man-made god.
We all know, that „THE GOOD" can’t be matched with anything what so ever. Not good is always just bad. Nothing but bad. So; to say „do it my way or else“ doesn’t make any sense. This demand does not exist, as it’s simply natural that good is good and bad is bad. Period. Any riot and rebellion against THE GOOD is absolutely bad, and such devastating. Here as in all cases, the bad led to the „or else“. Even on earth you see, that THE BAD on the long run always leads into annihilation. It did with Satan and his legions - it did with all bad leaders, systems and folks in history.
As Lucifer and his followers where Angels, they could not die - but where condemned and cast onto earth, aeons before humans where created for earth and the new place „hell“ was made for them.
Ever since first humans, Satan was allowed to sift us like wheat - which hell does with all it’s might. So - it’s clear who „created“ evil. Satan does and he is successful with all who listen to him.
It is our free choice to listen to Satan and be bad and such will of course be condemne, because nothing bad will ever enter heaven, or to choose to be good, and therefore will get into heaven. It’s as easy and simple as this.
Yours
Bruno
in the opening post is said:
"do it my way or else“.
That’s wrong. It must be "do it the right and good way or else“.
God is good. Non-Christians can not comprehend this the natural way. If we look at the old cultures like the historic Greek; their gods where just as evil as people are, with all their good and bad characteristics such love and empathy, but also as greed, hate and the lot.
The one and only God is good only. Not as any man-made god.
We all know, that „THE GOOD" can’t be matched with anything what so ever. Not good is always just bad. Nothing but bad. So; to say „do it my way or else“ doesn’t make any sense. This demand does not exist, as it’s simply natural that good is good and bad is bad. Period. Any riot and rebellion against THE GOOD is absolutely bad, and such devastating. Here as in all cases, the bad led to the „or else“. Even on earth you see, that THE BAD on the long run always leads into annihilation. It did with Satan and his legions - it did with all bad leaders, systems and folks in history.
As Lucifer and his followers where Angels, they could not die - but where condemned and cast onto earth, aeons before humans where created for earth and the new place „hell“ was made for them.
Ever since first humans, Satan was allowed to sift us like wheat - which hell does with all it’s might. So - it’s clear who „created“ evil. Satan does and he is successful with all who listen to him.
It is our free choice to listen to Satan and be bad and such will of course be condemne, because nothing bad will ever enter heaven, or to choose to be good, and therefore will get into heaven. It’s as easy and simple as this.
Yours
Bruno
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BrunoMaria
Guest
Above is stated: Adam and Eve had eternal life so it is obvious that they eventually make sin.
Sorry, but this is ridiculous, for it would mean, we when we have eternal life in God’s Kingdom, are bound to sind one day?!
The Angels whi have eternal life in God’s Kingdom, are bound to sind one day?!
Sorry, but this is ridiculous, for it would mean, we when we have eternal life in God’s Kingdom, are bound to sind one day?!
The Angels whi have eternal life in God’s Kingdom, are bound to sind one day?!
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STT
Guest
Yes, because they could not handle the situation anymore. They knew that they are going to die yet they commit the sin.
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Vico
Guest
The Catholic teaching is that they were capable of handling the situation, but choose willingly to disobey. If they were not capable then then it would be unwilling and they would not be culpable. Catechism 399 “Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness.” In the Genesis 3 the three were found at fault and received consequences for their actions:
14 And the Lord God said to the serpent:
Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle, and beasts of the earth: upon thy breast shalt thou go, and earth shalt thou eat all the days of thy life. 15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
16 To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband’s power, and he shall have dominion over thee.
17 And to Adam he said: Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat, cursed is the earth in thy work; with labour and toil shalt thou eat thereof all the days of thy life. 18 Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herbs of the earth. 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return.
16 To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband’s power, and he shall have dominion over thee.
17 And to Adam he said: Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat, cursed is the earth in thy work; with labour and toil shalt thou eat thereof all the days of thy life. 18 Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herbs of the earth. 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return.
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BobCatholic
Guest
If one had eternal life (going to heaven) they’re also endowed with perfection, which takes away the will to sin. When one is perfect, they DO NOT WANT to sin. I can imagine them saying something like “why would I want to stick my tongue on a frozen lamp post?” when it comes to doing sin.
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STT
Guest
Then they made a stupid choice if what you are suggesting is correct! You know that you are going to die by committing the sin and you prefer death over a marvelous life. So either there was a problem in their creation or they simply could not handle the situation any more. There is no other option.
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BobCatholic
Guest
Where did it say they were capable of handling the situation? They were clearly created imperfect. They either had the imperfection of pride, fear, stupidity, naivete or other imperfections. With those imperfections, it was a matter of time before one of them manifested into sin. Buggy software will eventually error out or crash. The question is not if, the question is when.
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ProdigalSun
Guest
When did God ever say this??? YOu are saying this not God!
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STT
Guest
Have you ever been under pressure to perform a sin? That require a lots of strength to resits the sin for a long time. You resist one day, two days, … until you eventually give up. Adam and Eve were in crude situation, they knew that they are going to die yet they committed the sin and gave up a marvelous life.
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STT
Guest
Look my friend lets divide their situation into two scenarios considering all gifts their were given: (1) They couldn’t resist the sin and (2) they could resist the sin. Of course they would fail in first scenario and succeed in the second case. They failed so they couldn’t resist the sin. This is mere logic and we cannot ignore it unless you find something wrong within the argument. So tell me what you think.
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STT
Guest
So they made a stupid decision. Is that what you want to say?
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Vico
Guest
Yes it was a bad decision which appears to be based upon " their** inordinate** desire for excellence". Catechism 1872 “Sin is an act contrary to reason. It wounds man’s nature and injures human solidarity.”
See how St. Thomas Aquinas answers in Summa Theologica II, II, Question 163:
Reply to Objection 1. Man’s disobedience to the Divine command was not willed by man for his own sake, for this could not happen unless one presuppose inordinateness in his will. It remains therefore that he willed it for the sake of something else. Now the first thing he coveted inordinately was his own excellence; and consequently his disobedience was the result of his pride. This agrees with the statement of Augustine, who says (Ad Oros [Dial. QQ. lxv, qu. 4) that “man puffed up with pride obeyed the serpent’s prompting, and scorned God’s commands.”
Reply to Objection 2. Gluttony also had a place in the sin of our first parents. For it is written (Genesis 3:6): “The woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold, and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat.” Yet the very goodness and beauty of the fruit was not their first motive for sinning, but the persuasive words of the serpent, who said (Genesis 3:5): “Your eyes shall be opened and you shall be as Gods”: and [COLOR=“blue”]it was by coveting this that the woman fell into pride. Hence the sin of gluttony resulted from the sin of pride.
Reply to Objection 3. The desire for knowledge resulted in our first parents from their inordinate desire for excellence. Hence the serpent began by saying: “You shall be as Gods,” and added: “Knowing good and evil.”
Reply to Objection 4. According to Augustine (Gen. ad lit. xi, 30), “the woman had not believed the serpent’s statement that they were debarred by God from a good and useful thing, were her mind not already filled with the love of her own power, and a certain proud self-presumption.” This does not mean that pride preceded the promptings of the serpent, but that as soon as the serpent had spoken his words of persuasion, her mind was puffed up, the result being that she believed the demon to have spoken truly.
newadvent.org/summa/3163.htm
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STT
Guest
. Hence the sin of gluttony resulted from the sin of pride.
Reply to Objection 3. The desire for knowledge resulted in our first parents from their inordinate desire for excellence. Hence the serpent began by saying: “You shall be as Gods,” and added: “Knowing good and evil.”
Reply to Objection 4. According to Augustine (Gen. ad lit. xi, 30), “the woman had not believed the serpent’s statement that they were debarred by God from a good and useful thing, were her mind not already filled with the love of her own power, and a certain proud self-presumption.” This does not mean that pride preceded the promptings of the serpent, but that as soon as the serpent had spoken his words of persuasion, her mind was puffed up, the result being that she believed the demon to have spoken truly.
newadvent.org/summa/3163.htm
Well, looking for excellence is reasonable when you can take advantage of it. What is the use of excellence when you know that you are going to die!?
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