Is our free choice real

[Giovonni]

Sure I have read those opinions in the newadvent articles (Catholic Encyclopedia). What I posted is not a discussion of proposed theories but only from the dogmas of faith.

Would not is different than could no, and is very significant.

Perhaps you could elaborate on the logic behind the idea Adam and Eve could have done otherwise given the same circumstance, knowledge, and desire?

 

[BobCatholic]

1. Only God is infinitely perfect, as mentioned early along in this thread.

And Mary is perfect, so is Jesus, so are the angels, and every single saint in heaven.

One does not have to be infinitely perfect to be perfect.

1. We know that God is just because it is a dogma of faith from Vatican I that God is infinitely just:

OK so when is the next flight to the Garden of Eden?

1. It is a dogma of faith from the Council of Trent, that supernatural gift of grace was given to Adam and Eve.

But no fixing of the imperfections.

Tell me, why did God hold back that grace?

Thus, failure is guaranteed, only a matter of time.

The Council of Trent states: “Through the merits of Christ satisfaction is rendered to God for the temporal punishment due to forgiven sins by the patient bearing of punishments imposed by God, as well as by voluntarily undertaken penitential works, such as fasting, prayers, almsgiving and other works of piety.” (Denzinger 923)

But do these indulgences get me away from temporal punishments like not being able to keep a steady job?

 

[BobCatholic]

Any choice is result of three things. 1. Circumstance 2. Desire (or state of being) and 3. Knowledge

Adam & Eve had a desire to be like God, had limited knowledge of the consequences (lacked comprehension of good and evil), and were placed in a circumstance where they were deceived. Given this it seems they would not make any other choice than the one they did.

Yes.

They were also ignorant of the facts.

THAT is also an imperfection which God did not fix.

“Don’t listen to the serpent, he’s evil, and for some reason I let him in to this perfect Garden.” Oh wait, that part is not in the revelation.

 

[BobCatholic]

Were they not tempted?

Yes, they were.

And because of their imperfections, they could not overcome the temptation.

They were naive or stupid, so they believed anything anyone told them, including an evil snake telling them nonsense. “Gee willikers, I’ll just believe what you said there mister snake, you wouldn’t lie to me!”

They were ignorant of the fact that they were never to listen to evil snakes. God didn’t tell them not to listen to that evil snake that he somehow let into this perfect sinless Garden for some odd reason or another.

They were fearful, the snake was 50 feet tall and made them so scared that they pretty much thought “why not?” and ate the fruit.

They were prideful and did it because they wanted to do what they wanted to do.

Buggy software crashes. Should be blame the computer for this or the program or the programmer?

But we are dealing with a Great Programmer who has zero responsibility for anything He does. So the program is to blame, and so is the computer.

 

[Vico]

And Mary is perfect, so is Jesus, so are the angels, and every single saint in heaven.
One does not have to be infinitely perfect to be perfect.
OK so when is the next flight to the Garden of Eden?
But no fixing of the imperfections.
Tell me, why did God hold back that grace?
Thus, failure is guaranteed, only a matter of time.
But do these indulgences get me away from temporal punishments like not being able to keep a steady job?

God did not withhold supernatural grace, and that is a dogma. The Catechism also has some explanation:

1743 “God willed that man should be left in the hand of his own counsel (cf. Sir 15:14), so that he might of his own accord seek his creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him” (GS 17 § 1).

God knew that Adam and Eve would fall, because He is omniscient, but one cannot thereby conclude that they were not given the power to overcome through grace, for the Church has given the dogma that those with sanctifying grace have sufficient grace, but also that it is not irresistible. We know that Adam and Eve choose of their own free will to sin mortally and to justly received punishment for it. The Garden of Eden was only created for Adam and Eve.

Not being able to keep a steady job, if it is punishment, could only be of two kinds:

• personal penal punishment inflicted on account of sin (temporal punishment due to sins *)
• medicinal punishment by God or man on those whom they own, so to speak.

But how would you know which one it is?

 

[BobCatholic]

God did not withhold supernatural grace, and that is a dogma.

Then why did God create them imperfect? Whatever imperfections they had, was grace withheld.

1743 “God willed that man should be left in the hand of his own counsel (cf. Sir 15:14), so that he might of his own accord seek his creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him” (GS 17 § 1).

A counsel that is imperfect, messed up, and fallen.

I have buggy software. God did not fix that. God withheld that grace. I’m still imperfect.

God demands we be perfect but I have no way of getting that.

The Garden of Eden was only created for Adam and Eve.

And their children, otherwise that command to be fruitful and multiply was just a cruel joke.

Not being able to keep a steady job, if it is punishment, could only be of two kinds:

• personal penal punishment inflicted on account of sin (temporal punishment due to sins *)
• medicinal punishment by God or man on those whom they own, so to speak.

But how would you know which one it is?

I don’t know. I’m imperfect and too stupid to figure it out.

 

[Vico]

Then why did God create them imperfect? Whatever imperfections they had, was grace withheld.

A counsel that is imperfect, messed up, and fallen.

I have buggy software. God did not fix that. God withheld that grace. I’m still imperfect.

God demands we be perfect but I have no way of getting that.

And their children, otherwise that command to be fruitful and multiply was just a cruel joke.

I don’t know. I’m imperfect and too stupid to figure it out.

Whatever imperfections they had before their sin, is not supernatural grace withheld.

God requires a pure heart not perfect actions.

So you cannot truly say that you are suffering temporal punishments, only punishments, for they may be medicinal not temporal from sins.

It is a dogma of the Church which is not “messed up”, Gaudium et Spes, 17:

1. Only in freedom can man direct himself toward goodness. Our contemporaries make much of this freedom and pursue it eagerly; and rightly to be sure. Often however they foster it perversely as a license for doing whatever pleases them, even if it is evil. For its part, authentic freedom is an exceptional sign of the divine image within man. For God has willed that man remain “under the control of his own decisions,”(12) so that he can seek his Creator spontaneously, and come freely to utter and blissful perfection through loyalty to Him. Hence man’s dignity demands that he act according to a knowing and free choice that is personally motivated and prompted from within, not under blind internal impulse nor by mere external pressure. Man achieves such dignity when, emancipating himself from all captivity to passion, he pursues his goal in a spontaneous choice of what is good, and procures for himself through effective and skilful action, apt helps to that end. Since man’s freedom has been damaged by sin, only by the aid of God’s grace can he bring such a relationship with God into full flower. Before the judgement seat of God each man must render an account of his own life, whether he has done good or evil.(13)
2. Cf. Sir. 15:14.
   13 Cf. 2 Cor. 5:10.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html

 

[Aloysium]

Perhaps you could elaborate on the logic behind the idea Adam and Eve could have done otherwise given the same circumstance, knowledge, and desire?

:twocents: regarding the above and other contributions to this thread.

Genesis is rich in meaning. It’s usually a good idea, as with all considerations regarding our relationship with God, to pray before, during and after contemplation of His word.

And, that is what Genesis is - the first revelation of the Word, His bringing all into existence now and in time. As is all of scripture - a dialogue between God and mankind - it speaks about our relationship with Him that is ultimately our movement from Adam to Christ.

Adam, as I understand him (us) was (would be) whole. The circumstance in Eden, his knowledge and desire were one, as is our unity with him, in our being individual expressions of one mankind. Sin, acts done in opposition to God’s will to love, scatters humanity, which is then reunited through and in Christ, the one true vine. Becoming like Him, in eternity we are reconciled, reconnected, joined within the Beatific Vision that knows God as Love.

The brokenness of our human nature has a history. Humanity made a choice freely, at its creation, similar to that of the angels, and here we are.

We have sufficient grace - knowledge and the capacity to choose and act in every instance that we sin, to do otherwise. Unlike the angels, we who are formed from matter, time and space, have the opportunity to journey back to God. There is no point judging or hating ourselves. God loves us. We must confess our failings and move on, putting our faith and hope in Christ.

That’s the short of it. The long version would be in our hearts, reaching out to God who calls, in hope of becoming ever closer to being truly His sons and daughters. The praise of that which God has done to turn this mess around, I’m incapable of putting into words. Let’s offer Him our deepest thanks.

 

[Giovonni]

:twocents: regarding the above and other contributions to this thread.

Genesis is rich in meaning. It’s usually a good idea, as with all considerations regarding our relationship with God, to pray before, during and after contemplation of His word.

And, that is what Genesis is - the first revelation of the Word, His bringing all into existence now and in time. As is all of scripture - a dialogue between God and mankind - it speaks about our relationship with Him that is ultimately our movement from Adam to Christ.

Adam, as I understand him (us) was (would be) whole. The circumstance in Eden, his knowledge and desire were one, as is our unity with him, in our being individual expressions of one mankind. Sin, acts done in opposition to God’s will to love, scatters humanity, which is then reunited through and in Christ, the one true vine. Becoming like Him, in eternity we are reconciled, reconnected, joined within the Beatific Vision that knows God as Love.

The brokenness of our human nature has a history. Humanity made a choice freely, at its creation, similar to that of the angels, and here we are.

We have sufficient grace - knowledge and the capacity to choose and act in every instance that we sin, to do otherwise. Unlike the angels, we who are formed from matter, time and space, have the opportunity to journey back to God. There is no point judging or hating ourselves. God loves us. We must confess our failings and move on, putting our faith and hope in Christ.

That’s the short of it. The long version would be in our hearts, reaching out to God who calls, in hope of becoming ever closer to being truly His sons and daughters. The praise of that which God has done to turn this mess around, I’m incapable of putting into words. Let’s offer Him our deepest thanks.

Thank you for the very articulate response. I agree that Genesis is rich in meaning, and I am not questioning what the Church doctrine is.

What I am unable to make sense of the logic behind your statement that we have knowledge and capacity to choose and act in every instance that we sin, to do otherwise. - I just don’t see it. Adam and Eve is the prime example because they were pre-fallen. If God replayed the exact scenario with the same circumstances, then the results would always be the same. So, my challenge to you is to explain how they could have done otherwise. The only way I can see that happening is if A) they had different desires b) there was no serpent to tempt them or C) they had more knowledge. Is there some other mechanism that would created a different choice?

 

[BobCatholic]

Whatever imperfections they had before their sin, is not supernatural grace withheld.

You didn’t explain how, you just “said so” instead.

God requires a pure heart not perfect actions.

So “Be perfect as the heavenly father is perfect” means we can just have a pure heart and no perfect actions. So the Heavenly father does not have perfect actions then, since the comparison is apt. You’re starting to sound like me, with the buggy software writing comparison.

So you cannot truly say that you are suffering temporal punishments, only punishments, for they may be medicinal not temporal from sins.

I see no difference between temporal punishments, medicinal or not. They all hurt the same.

1. Only in freedom can man direct himself toward goodness.

Freedom is reduced or eliminated due to imperfections. That’s my point all along. And the Church does not disagree with this.

 

[Vico]

You didn’t explain how, you just “said so” instead.

So “Be perfect as the heavenly father is perfect” means we can just have a pure heart and no perfect actions. So the Heavenly father does not have perfect actions then, since the comparison is apt. You’re starting to sound like me, with the buggy software writing comparison.

I see no difference between temporal punishments, medicinal or not. They all hurt the same.

Freedom is reduced or eliminated due to imperfections. That’s my point all along. And the Church does not disagree with this.

You wrote: “I see no difference between temporal punishments, medicinal or not. They all hurt the same.”

The distinction is between what the Church calls temporal punishments due sin and medicinal punishments. Medicinal are not called temporal punishments due sin and indulgences are not applied to medicinal. Suffering is a challenge.

Matthew 16:
24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For he that will save his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for my sake, shall find it. 26 For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.

I wrote: “Whatever imperfections they had before their sin, is not supernatural grace withheld.”

We know this is correct because supernatural grace was given not withheld; the question is answered without reference to perfection. .

Creatures do not have perfection as God does. For one, the dogma of faith is that:
God’s Nature is incomprehensible to men. (4th Lateran Council of 1215, and the Vatican Council
Another:
God’s Essence is also incomprehensible to the blessed in Heaven.

“Holy Script teaches that natural evil or metaphysical imperfections originate from God’s Decree (Dt. 32, 29: Is. 45, 6 et seq.), but that moral evil has its basis in the misuse of freedom (Rom. 5, 12).” - Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 32.

The heart must be purified. Those that will no evil by an act that is objectively morally imperfect, do not have mortal sin imputed to them for it.

Catechism

1853 … The root of sin is in the heart of man, in his free will, according to the teaching of the Lord …

1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul’s progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God’s grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."134

While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call “light”: if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession.135​

From St, Gregory of Nyssa, The Life of Moses

I said that it is also impossible for those who pursue the life of virtue to attain perfection. The meaning of this statement will be explained.

The Divine One is Himself the Good (in the primary and proper sense of the word), whose very nature is goodness. This is and He is so named, and is known by this nature. Since, then, it has not been demonstrated that there is any limit to virtue except evil, and since the Divine does not admit of an opposite, we hold the divine nature to be unlimited and infinite. Certainly whoever pursues true virtue participates in nothing other than God, because He is himself absolute virtue. Since, then, those who know what is good by nature desire participation in it, and since this good has no limit, the participant’s desire itself necessarily has no stopping place but stretches out with the limitless.

It is therefore undoubtedly impossible to attain perfection, since, as I have said, perfection is not marked off by limits: The one limit of virtue is the absence of a limit. How then would one arrive at the sought-for boundary when he can find no boundary?

Although on the whole my argument has shown that what is sought for is unattainable, one should not disregard the commandment of the Lord which says, “Therefore be perfect, just as your heavenly father is perfect” (Matt. 5.48). For in the case of those things which are good by nature, even if men of understanding were not able to attain to everything, by attaining even a part they could yet gain a great deal.

We should show great diligence not to fall away from the perfection which is attainable but to acquire as much as is possible: To that extent let us make progress within the realm of what we seek. For the perfection of human nature consists perhaps in its very growth in goodness.

• See more at: eighthdayinstitute.org/st_gregory_of_nyssa_what_is_the_perfect_life#sthash.HQYVdXaW.dpuf

 

[Aloysium]

. . . I am unable to make sense of the logic behind your statement that we have knowledge and capacity to choose and act in every instance that we sin, to do otherwise. - I just don’t see it. Adam and Eve is the prime example because they were pre-fallen. If God replayed the exact scenario with the same circumstances, then the results would always be the same. So, my challenge to you is to explain how they could have done otherwise. The only way I can see that happening is if A) they had different desires b) there was no serpent to tempt them or C) they had more knowledge. Is there some other mechanism that would created a different choice?

You aren’t able to see it is because it lies outside the vision of the world that you present.
You ask about “mechanism” and that is fitting because that is how you are putting it together.
This works very well for utilitarian purposes - predicting and manipulating things.
It unfortunately doesn’t take us much deeper than that, especially where things are about purposes and meanings, or in this case the nature of free will and creation.

Adam and Eve, self-and-other were (is) not pre-fallen; the brokenness of this world is not its essential nature.
The fallen relations, lacking in love, manifesting themselves as a spiritual fog limiting our ability to see one another as we are, and creating the abyss that so easily comes between us, was caused and is perpetuated by sin.

We desire the good and what belongs to God is most definitely good.
Eve witnessed that goodness and desired to possess it.
It is Adam’s sin ultimately, but why he ate the apple isn’t stated.
It doesn’t matter because there is no excuse. He did it as do we.

He appropriated what was God’s, wanting to be a god.
We might say that we have gotten our wish to be the Man on the cross.
We can know goodness and evil to the depths of our being.

A big mistake made right by God.

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: “I see no difference between temporal punishments, medicinal or not. They all hurt the same.”

The distinction is between what the Church calls temporal punishments due sin and medicinal punishments. Medicinal are not called temporal punishments due sin and indulgences are not applied to medicinal. Suffering is a challenge.

OK, so how do I get around the medicinal punishments?

Especially when I don’t know why I"m getting the medicinal punishment?

Start wildly guessing which one of the fifty thousand imperfections is making God angry at me to throw medicinal punishments at me?

I wrote: “Whatever imperfections they had before their sin, is not supernatural grace withheld.”

We know this is correct because supernatural grace was given not withheld; the question is answered without reference to perfection. .

But one of the supernatural graces NOT given was perfection.

Creatures do not have perfection as God does

I know that, but the saints and angels are perfect. They won’t sin…ever.

Mary was created perfect and remained that way all her life.

Yes, their perfection is not infinite perfection like God but perfect enough to make God happy and obey the command he gave to be perfect. THAT is what I mean by being perfect.

The heart must be purified. Those that will no evil by an act that is objectively morally imperfect, do not have mortal sin imputed to them for it.

But they still get lesser sin imputed, and temporal punishments - including medicinal.

I said that it is also impossible for those who pursue the life of virtue to attain perfection.

So if this is true, God the Father and Christ both gave commands that are impossible to follow, thus setting us up for failure. How is this reasonable?

 

[Vico]

OK, so how do I get around the medicinal punishments?
Especially when I don’t know why I"m getting the medicinal punishment?
Start wildly guessing which one of the fifty thousand imperfections is making God angry at me to throw medicinal punishments at me?
But one of the supernatural graces NOT given was perfection.
I know that, but the saints and angels are perfect. They won’t sin…ever.
Mary was created perfect and remained that way all her life.
Yes, their perfection is not infinite perfection like God but perfect enough to make God happy and obey the command he gave to be perfect. THAT is what I mean by being perfect.
But they still get lesser sin imputed, and temporal punishments - including medicinal.
So if this is true, God the Father and Christ both gave commands that are impossible to follow, thus setting us up for failure. How is this reasonable?

When a person forms the act of will constitutive of justificaiton, this act of will is only the beginning of a process of healing the will for that person. The ongoing healing is the process of sanctification. In this process, God works together with the will of a human person in a cooperative enterprise that gradually integrates her more and more in goodness. Sanctification brings a person into as deep a union with God as she is willing to have. Insofar as her greatness is correlative with her union with God, sanctification also transforms her into something glorious.

– Oxford Handbook of Aquinas edited by Brian Davies, Eleonore Stump, p. 406.

For Aquinas, then, suffering is medicinal for the parts of a person’s psyche in need of healing. For those who are already healed to a certain extent, the experience of suffering enables them to open in a deeper way to the love of God, as Aquinas says in the commentary on the Creed. But for those who are very far from being healed, suffering is medicinal in the senst that, as Aquinas puts it, it helps the sufferer forward to salvation.

– Oxford Handbook of Aquinas edited by Brian Davies, Eleonore Stump, p. 408.

Perfection is not a supernatural grace, so of course it cannot be given. Free will is required to approach perfection through cooperation with grace.

Yes, venial sin also entails temporal punishments, necessary to break the attachments to creatures. This does keep one from heaven.

St. Gregory of Nyssa wrote the answer to your query, but it is not necessary to be perfect to attain salvation:

Although on the whole my argument has shown that what is sought for is unattainable, one should not disregard the commandment of the Lord which says, “Therefore be perfect, just as your heavenly father is perfect” (Matt. 5.48). For in the case of those things which are good by nature, even if men of understanding were not able to attain to everything, by attaining even a part they could yet gain a great deal.

Yes, venial sin also entails temporal punishments, necessary to break the attachments to creatures. This does keep one from heaven.

 

[BobCatholic]

So how do I know which of the fifty thousand imperfections I have are the ones making God angry and temporally punishing me? This could easily take scrupulosity to new levels.

 

[Vico]

So how do I know which of the fifty thousand imperfections I have are the ones making God angry and temporally punishing me? This could easily take scrupulosity to new levels.

Every single mortal or venial sin.

 

[BobCatholic]

Every single mortal or venial sin.

No cure for my scrupulosity then.

 

[STT]

So how do I know which of the fifty thousand imperfections I have are the ones making God angry and temporally punishing me? This could easily take scrupulosity to new levels.

Why do you think that you have many imperfections? That could be demons temptations if you are tempted a lot. They are very strong and can manipulate your mind and thoughts and feelings. Stronger you become harder they become at you until you finish the duty.

 

[Giovonni]

You aren’t able to see it is because it lies outside the vision of the world that you present.
You ask about “mechanism” and that is fitting because that is how you are putting it together.
This works very well for utilitarian purposes - predicting and manipulating things.
It unfortunately doesn’t take us much deeper than that, especially where things are about purposes and meanings, or in this case the nature of free will and creation.

Adam and Eve, self-and-other were (is) not pre-fallen; the brokenness of this world is not its essential nature.
The fallen relations, lacking in love, manifesting themselves as a spiritual fog limiting our ability to see one another as we are, and creating the abyss that so easily comes between us, was caused and is perpetuated by sin.

We desire the good and what belongs to God is most definitely good.
Eve witnessed that goodness and desired to possess it.
It is Adam’s sin ultimately, but why he ate the apple isn’t stated.
It doesn’t matter because there is no excuse. He did it as do we.

He appropriated what was God’s, wanting to be a god.
We might say that we have gotten our wish to be the Man on the cross.
We can know goodness and evil to the depths of our being.

A big mistake made right by God.

The world I present is one based on logic and experience - a world where if you control the (name removed by moderator)uts you control the result. What I get from your statement is that the nature of free will doesn’t fit into a logical framework.

You say yourself that Adam ate the apple due to his desire to be like God. He didn’t choose that desire did he? In fact, we don’t choose any of our desires. We don’t blame an infant for eating something it shouldn’t because a baby’s desire is to explore, test, and taste things.

Imagine if as a parent I said, “son, it doesn’t matter why you put teeth marks on Dad’s remote control. I told you not to do it and you disobeyed. Now you must suffer the consequence.” That would be unreasonable. Of course it matters why we do what we do.

 

[Aloysium]

The world I present is one based on logic and experience - a world where if you control the (name removed by moderator)uts you control the result. What I get from your statement is that the nature of free will doesn’t fit into a logical framework.

You say yourself that Adam ate the apple due to his desire to be like God. He didn’t choose that desire did he? In fact, we don’t choose any of our desires. We don’t blame an infant for eating something it shouldn’t because a baby’s desire is to explore, test, and taste things.

Imagine if as a parent I said, “son, it doesn’t matter why you put teeth marks on Dad’s remote control. I told you not to do it and you disobeyed. Now you must suffer the consequence.” That would be unreasonable. Of course it matters why we do what we do.

The world you describe is a laboratory.
That’s not how most things work. Are you married?

The concept of desire speaks to our broken nature.
The way it is used in your question suggests that they externally control us.
Desire represents that to which we aspire. We choose from a number of goods what we want.
Sin fragments us, robbing us of our freedom as these wants will eventually come to control us.
Gambling, substance abuse, pornography and the like end up taking hold of us, more and more, as we give in.

God doesn’t blame us. In fact He sacrificed His son that we might be saved.
There are consequences as you acknowledge.
One consequence to biting the remote is a broken tooth, maybe a shock, or an inability to get to the cartoon channel.
Unlike a child unaware of the consequences, Adam heard quite well what he would be getting himself into.
He chose to disobey, not trust God, run from the truth, blame the woman he had loved until he denied Love, and so on.

You may wish to contemplate further on the matter. I prefer not to argue, but perhaps I can clarify more what I mean, when I have more time.