Is our free choice real

[rinnie]

You posted “what about those who are not faithful to a god, wouldn’t they probably accept God if he appeared to them like he did with saints and prophets, where’s the free will then or where’s even the fair will in choosing some over others?”

So the example is one of an unfaithful person that wants to warn his family to get religion to avoid his experience. The answer is no, it would not help. A miracle of God is what was experienced by saints and prophets. They did not experience that because they were unfaithful to the truth, but rather because they were just. It would not help the unfaithful.

And as my Dad said God came to this earth. God made Man, and some still rejected him. So even if he would come in the flesh does not mean some will accept him.

 

[ANV]

You posted “what about those who are not faithful to a god, wouldn’t they probably accept God if he appeared to them like he did with saints and prophets, where’s the free will then or where’s even the fair will in choosing some over others?”

So the example is one of an unfaithful person that wants to warn his family to get religion to avoid his experience. The answer is no, it would not help. A miracle of God is what was experienced by saints and prophets. They did not experience that because they were unfaithful to the truth, but rather because they were just. It would not help the unfaithful.

Paul wasn’t faithful.

 

[rinnie]

Please explain how we are NOT temporally held responsible for the sins of our ancestors?

We are NOT in the Garden of Eden.
We are NOT told to only follow one rule to please God.
We are NOT in the presence of God and having a two-way conversation with God. (some do, and I wish I could meet those people)

We are subject to the same punishment (and more) given to Adam and Eve.

We are sitting in the same jail cell as they did.

De Fide: They were prideful. Pridefulness is an imperfection. So you have just contradicted Catholic teaching.

I just go further and say they have other imperfections: naivete, ignorance, fear, stupidity.

Created free from sin is not the same as perfection. Perfection entails never wanting to sin, even though they had the ability to do so. The saints are perfect. Angels are perfect. God is perfect (infinitely more perfect than them).

Tell me, if Adam and Eve were perfect, why didn’t God immediately take them into heaven?

And if sin/evil is not allowed in the Garden, how in blazes did that snake get into the Garden? Who was responsible for that happening?

That’s the imperfection of greed, or envy - which one you want to choose - either which way, both of those imperfections cause people to sin. So I proved that wrong right there.

I never claimed to speak for God. That would require me to have a personal relationship with God (I don’t have one, only have a corporate one) - and have the ability to have a two way conversation with God (prayer is a monologue to me, God does not speak to me, but when I see my requests not happening, that means it was a no)

Please show me where that promise is.

I know God never made a promise to give us what we need temporally.

Incorrect we are not subject to the same judgement as Adam and Eve, we have the gift of the Holy Spirit to be united to God through our Spirit. It was Christ that is the mediator between Man and God.

Adam and Eve were not created with pride (sin). They were created sinless, it was their own free will to disobey God, you keep blaming God for the sin of A&E. You refuse to make them accept responsibility for their sin, I already told you Adam tried that God shot him down. God knows a heart, and God did not judge them unfair. If they were naive and did not understand what they were doing God would have never thrown them out. You are saying God was unfair, he was not unfair. He knows a heart and what they wanted to do.

And God did make the promise to us. Matt 7:7 Ask and it will be given to you, seek and you will find. There is no way he said but you must read heaven first. That does not even make sense anyway, what could we need to ask for or seek in heaven, so it has to be here on this earth. And the bible is full of thousands of ways that God’s promises.

Deut God is Faithful. tons of it.

And we are not called to be perfect like God, we are called to be perfected in God, anotherwards we are called to imitate him in all we do. But he never called us to be perfect as in being a god or equal to God, its not possible. Its actually forbidden. God never tells us we are called to be our own gods.

Having a personal relationship with God in no way means to read the mind of God, that is not Catholic teaching. Again to be in one mind means to obey him and do what he revealed to us, not that we must be able to read his mind. I don’t know where you are getting this.

Imperfections are because we let our mind wander away from God and to the lusts in the world. And that itself is not a mortal sin, its mortal when we act on it, but according to you we do not have the free will to act or not act on it. I disagree.

You claim to not speak for God, but then you say God does not want me, God does not want this, or that, or God did this or that. How do you know then what God wants or does not want then? How do you know you are rejected then?

 

[rinnie]

Paul wasn’t faithful.

Sure he was. Paul was a Jew and did not have the Grace to see Christ as God. But when the truth was revealed to him through the Holy Spirit he was quite faithful. He spent his life defending the word of Jesus Christ, how much more faithful do you feel he should have been? what do you feel he did not do?

 

[rinnie]

Well, you have a virtue I do not possess. I can’t suffer with a smile on my face. I just can’t do it.

If they were imperfect, I question if they had free will.
You will notice that it is not de fide that:

• Adam and Eve were created perfect
• Adam and Eve had no imperfections.

If it is, please show me the citations from scripture, tradition or magisterium.

I know for a fact, that Catholic teaching is that Adam and Eve were prideful as your quote shows for a fact. Pridefulness is an imperfection, and thus proves my point.

I build upon that and say they had maybe more imperfections than just that. Fear. Ignorance. Naivete. Stupidity. This does not contradict anything de fide or dogma. I’m merely making a theological speculation.

Here is the scripture you wanted. CCC By his Sin Adam the first man lost the ORIGINAL HOLINESS and JUSTICE he had received from God. If God created someone Holy there would be no sin, Do you not agree Bob?

Next you claim that we are left holding the bag, and get no help from God. Again CCC 420 The VICTORY that Christ won over sin has given us GREATER blessings than those which SIN had TAKEN FROM US. where sin increased GRACE ABOUNDED all the MORE. Rom 5:20.

So hopefully we can put this puppy to rest.

 

[ANV]

Sure he was. Paul was a Jew and did not have the Grace to see Christ as God. But when the truth was revealed to him through the Holy Spirit he was quite faithful. He spent his life defending the word of Jesus Christ, how much more faithful do you feel he should have been? what do you feel he did not do?

but he wasn’t faithful before the vision, my reply was to vico’s answer.

 

[fbl9]

but he wasn’t faithful before the vision, my reply was to vico’s answer.

Yes St.Paul was faithful to his Jewish faith. Why else was he out hunting Christians.

 

[ANV]

Yes St.Paul was faithful to his Jewish faith. Why else was he out hunting Christians.

So he became Christian after the vision, the vision impacted his free will and choice, he knew at the moment and changed.

 

[rinnie]

but he wasn’t faithful before the vision, my reply was to vico’s answer.

He was absolutely faithful. Paul was a very faithful Jew and faithful to God. He indeed did not see Christ as the Son of God until the Grace given to him by God showed it to him.

He said himself in scripture that his eyes were opened by the Grace of God and that grace was not in vain.

 

[BobCatholic]

Incorrect we are not subject to the same judgement as Adam and Eve,

Actually we are subject to a worse judgment.

We are not only held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve, we are also held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

we have the gift of the Holy Spirit to be united to God through our Spirit. It was Christ that is the mediator between Man and God.

A spiritual gift, does not fix the temporal problem.

Adam and Eve were not created with pride (sin).

Please do not put words in my mouth, I did not say this.

I said they were created with the imperfection of pride, not the sin of pride. The sin was pride what they committed.

you keep blaming God for the sin of A&E.

They were created imperfect, it was only a matter of time before they fell.
And WHO let that snake into the Garden?

You refuse to make them accept responsibility for their sin,

If they had actual free will, yes they are responsible.

But how can they have free will if they have imperfections? Imperfections make free will a cruel joke at best, or nonexistent at worst.

If they were naive and did not understand what they were doing

That’s not naievete, that’s moral ignorance.

In a way, they were ignorant, they did not know that they should not trust the snake. And how did he get into the garden when evil is not allowed there?

He knows a heart and what they wanted to do.

He knew they wanted to be better, and know more. After all, they didn’t know enough. God did not inform them “there’s an evil snake in here, don’t listen to him, he lies.” By themselves, they could not get that information until it was too late.

Matt 7:7 Ask and it will be given to you, seek and you will find.

Well, we have a problem here.

If God promised this and it was not limited, then God broke his promise with me (and many others who got a NO as an answer for prayer).

I maintain that God never promised he would take care of temporal needs, otherwise, he broke his promise.

God is limited by his will, and anything that is asked for that is not in his will is automatically given a no answer since what is being asked for is evil.

we are called to be perfected in God,

And we can’t do that. Only God can do it, if he so chooses. Purgatory is our best hope, and heaven is not.

Having a personal relationship with God in no way means to read the mind of God, that is not Catholic teaching.

I never said that, don’t put words in my mouth.

But God does appear to want us to read his mind, when God punishes people for not doing his will but not telling them what it is in the first place.

Imperfections are because we let our mind wander away from God and to the lusts in the world.

This is one of many imperfections which keep us down.

You claim to not speak for God, but then you say God does not want me, God does not want this, or that, or God did this or that. How do you know then what God wants or does not want then? How do you know you are rejected then?

I ask, I don’t receive.

I ask for steady employment so I can provide for my family. I did not get it.
I ask for my son’s mental disease to be healed. He wasn’t healed.

The answer was CLEARLY no.

It cannot be a yes if I don’t have what I asked for.

Clearly, what I asked for was outside of God’s will, and thus they were evil things.

 

[rinnie]

Actually we are subject to a worse judgment.

We are not only held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve, we are also held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

A spiritual gift, does not fix the temporal problem.

Please do not put words in my mouth, I did not say this.

I said they were created with the imperfection of pride, not the sin of pride. The sin was pride what they committed.

They were created imperfect, it was only a matter of time before they fell.
And WHO let that snake into the Garden?

If they had actual free will, yes they are responsible.

But how can they have free will if they have imperfections? Imperfections make free will a cruel joke at best, or nonexistent at worst.

That’s not naievete, that’s moral ignorance.

In a way, they were ignorant, they did not know that they should not trust the snake. And how did he get into the garden when evil is not allowed there?

He knew they wanted to be better, and know more. After all, they didn’t know enough. God did not inform them “there’s an evil snake in here, don’t listen to him, he lies.” By themselves, they could not get that information until it was too late.

Well, we have a problem here.

If God promised this and it was not limited, then God broke his promise with me (and many others who got a NO as an answer for prayer).

I maintain that God never promised he would take care of temporal needs, otherwise, he broke his promise.

God is limited by his will, and anything that is asked for that is not in his will is automatically given a no answer since what is being asked for is evil.

And we can’t do that. Only God can do it, if he so chooses. Purgatory is our best hope, and heaven is not.

I never said that, don’t put words in my mouth.

But God does appear to want us to read his mind, when God punishes people for not doing his will but not telling them what it is in the first place.

This is one of many imperfections which keep us down.

I ask, I don’t receive.

I ask for steady employment so I can provide for my family. I did not get it.
I ask for my son’s mental disease to be healed. He wasn’t healed.

The answer was CLEARLY no.

It cannot be a yes if I don’t have what I asked for.

Clearly, what I asked for was outside of God’s will, and thus they were evil things.

How does God saying no to you instead of yes break him promise to give us what we need? Just because you are not getting what you are asking for does not mean he does not give to us what we need.

You think that if God heals your Son and you get a great job, then God is good, God is great, because God gives me what I want, what I think I need.

But when God says no, and has something else in mind that much better, although human understanding cannot understand, then God did not keep his promises.

God does not work that way. We pray and ask him for what we want or need, and if it does not happen we have to trust him and wait to see how he wants it to go down. If God gave you everything you wanted, why have faith? Faith is blind, Faith is not getting all you ask for and loving and trusting that God will take care of you, even when its not what you want.

Faith and trust and obeying God is not saying I asked him for this, and that and this and he said no. Faith is asking and knowing that what you need will come, maybe not the way you wanted it, but knowing your prayer will be answered. It is not God saying No to you, it is you saying Yes to God.

Saying I asked for this, and YES I trust you to help me with my problem whatever way you feel is best for myself and my Son. No demanding what you want.

 

[rinnie]

And if you think you know what you need more then God, then I have no words for you. God has his reasons for what he is doing.

God does sometimes say no. Accept it, and ask him for his Grace to accept the no’s you receive and help you to move on. With his grace You can do anything.

Tell me Bob, I know what God has not given you. But could you possibly take out a moment in your day and write me down what God has given you that you are thankful for.

myself:
My Husband
My Children
My house
My friends
My bros and Sis
My health, having more good days then bad
My friends
My Church
The sun, the grass, birds, snow, summer, rain,

Oh and this one is priceless. Yesterday I got my grandson bubbles and a gun that you dipped and then blew big bubbles, (he is too small to figure out how to blow through that little round plastic stick). He was shooting them out with the gun, slamming the gun down, and trying to catch the bubbles.

Things like that are indeed God revealing himself on earth. The love and happiness in that little boys eyes. The innocence. And Bob, it did not cost me a dime. Okay a buck for the gun and a buck for the bubbles.

 

[Vico]

Paul wasn’t faithful.

This example if one unfaithful to the end and his brothers are unfaithful and living. They still could repent as St. Paul did. But Paul was a good Jew.

 

[JimmyDFG]

We are not only held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve, we are also held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

Is this in the New Testament?

 

[rinnie]

Bob Catholic. Let me ask you one question. Here is one.

You claim God does not help us with our problems here on earth (temporal problems) you call them. Okay then what WHERE would we be then to ask for his help with our problems? Heaven???

Again you claim God does not help us with our temporal problems. I don’t get it. Again please clarify.

 

[fbl9]

So he became Christian after the vision, the vision impacted his free will and choice, he knew at the moment and changed.

In hunting down Christians St.Paul believed he was doing God’s will. So already St.Paul was actively seeking to do God’s will.Upon finding out he (St.Paul) was not doing God’s will, he freely choose to stop and follow Christ.
Say one decided to savagely murder another. This person was taught that a knife was the tool to use. In fact he was an expert at using a knife. Along came a person who taught that a hammer was way to kill and he showed the soon to be murder that it was. On the eve the murder planned the attack the murder took a hammer instead of a knife. Now did the person freely choose to use the hammer or was this person’s free will taken away?

 

[rinnie]

Bob another question We are called to be perfected in Christ. You said we cannot do that, our best shot is purgatory.

Then why did God call us to do it? Are you saying he asked us to do something he KNOWS is impossible. Because we are all called to be Saints. You said it is only possible in Purgatory not in this world.

 

[rinnie]

So he became Christian after the vision, the vision impacted his free will and choice, he knew at the moment and changed.

How could God have impacted his free will and choice but revealing to him the truth.

He said Saul Saul why are persecuting me. Saul said who are you, and he said I am Christ whom you are persecuting.

God revealed to Paul that by persecuting the CC he was persecuting him. So God had revealed to him that Christ was indeed the Messiah.

While I agree the truth impacted his choice, it never impacted his freedom to make that choice.

Could you explain to me how Saul who honored God and did not realize that Christ was indeed God and when it was revealed to him choose to honor God through his Church and not persecute it, took away his free will?

He said why do you persecute me. Saul said who are YOU he said I am the Church whom you are persecuting? Thanks

 

[Giovonni]

How could God have impacted his free will and choice but revealing to him the truth.

He said Saul Saul why are persecuting me. Saul said who are you, and he said I am Christ whom you are persecuting.

God revealed to Paul that by persecuting the CC he was persecuting him. So God had revealed to him that Christ was indeed the Messiah.

While I agree the truth impacted his choice, it never impacted his freedom to make that choice.

Could you explain to me how Saul who honored God and did not realize that Christ was indeed God and when it was revealed to him choose to honor God through his Church and not persecute it, took away his free will?

He said why do you persecute me. Saul said who are YOU he said I am the Church whom you are persecuting? Thanks

I would contend that he did not have free will to begin with. God knew how Saul would react if he revealed himself, and he knew how he would react if he hadn’t given him the revelation.

Now before you say foreknowledge doesn’t equal causation, in the case of God, he also created Saul (and all of us for that matter).

If you create something (Paul’s mind) with a full understanding of how it will act in a given situation, and then you actively place it in that circumstance (revelation on the road to Damascus), then it follows that you control the outcome (Paul stops persecuting). Sure he made a choice, but under what basis do you assert that it was free?

 

[Vico]

I would contend that he did not have free will to begin with. God knew how Saul would react if he revealed himself, and he knew how he would react if he hadn’t given him the revelation.

Now before you say foreknowledge doesn’t equal causation, in the case of God, he also created Saul (and all of us for that matter).

If you create something (Paul’s mind) with a full understanding of how it will act in a given situation, and then you actively place it in that circumstance (revelation on the road to Damascus), then it follows that you control the outcome (Paul stops persecuting). Sure he made a choice, but under what basis do you assert that it was free?

Some Catholic dogmas of faith about free will and actual grace and free will are:

• There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will. (De fide.)
• There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will. (De fide.)
• God, by His Eternal Resolve of Will, has predetermined certain men to eternal blessedness. (De fide.)
• God, by an Eternal Resolve of His Will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal rejection. (De fide.)
• The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistable. (De fide.)
• There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious (gratia vere et mere sufficiens). (De fide.)