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BobCatholic
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When bad luck happens to me, God does not protect me from evil. I need him to protect me from evil.
How do I convince God to protect me from evil?
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How do I convince God to protect me from evil?
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BobCatholic
Guest
Anyway, sorry about the thread drift, I don’t want to talk about my problems anymore on this thread. I don’t think anyone on this forum can help me.
Can we get back to the topic at hand and what I was talking about? How is our free choice real if we are imperfect and imperfections make free choice a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst?
Can we get back to the topic at hand and what I was talking about? How is our free choice real if we are imperfect and imperfections make free choice a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst?
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Vico
Guest
God is ready always such that, with Sanctifying Grace, we receive faith, hope, and charity, and that is our protection from “the evil of sin” as stated in the Lord’s Prayer.When bad luck happens to me, God does not protect me from evil. I need him to protect me from evil.
How do I convince God to protect me from evil?
Modern Catholic Dictionary
Theological Virtue. A good habit of the mind or will, supernaturally infused into the soul, whose immediate object is God. The theological virtues are faith, hope, and charity.
Sanctifying Grace. The supernatural state of being infused by God, which permanently inheres in the soul. It is a vital principle of the supernatural life, as the rational soul is the vital principle of a human being’s natural life. It is not a substance but a real quality that becomes part of the soul substance. Although commonly associated with the possession of the virtue of charity, sanctifying grace is yet distinct from this virtue. Charity, rather, belongs to the will, whereas sanctifying grace belongs to the whole soul, mind, will, and affections. It is called sanctifying grace because it makes holy those who possess the gift by giving them a participation in the divine life. It is zoē (life), which Christ taught that he has in common with the Father and which those who are in the state of grace share.
Haydock Commentary
Matthew 6:13 And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen.
Ver. 13. God is not the tempter of evil, or author of sin. (James i. 13.) He tempteth no man: we pray that he would not suffer the devil to tempt us above our strength: that he would remove the temptations, or enable us to overcome them, and deliver us from evil, particularly the evil of sin, which is the first, and the greatest, and the true efficient cause of all evils. (Haydock)
— In the Greek we here read, for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory; which words are found in some old Greek liturgies, and there is every appearance that they have thence slipped into the text of St. Matthew. They do not occur in St. Luke (vi. 4.[xi. 4.?]), nor in any one of the old Latin copies, nor yet in the most ancient of the Greek texts. The holy Fathers prior to St. Chrysostom, as Grotius observes, who have explained the Lord’s prayer, never mention these words.
— And not being found in Tertullian, St. Cyprian, St. Jerome, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, &c., nor in the Vatican Greek copy, nor in the Cambridge manuscripts. &c. as Dr. Wells also observes, it seems certain that they were only a pious conclusion, or doxology, with which the Greeks in the fourth age began to conclude their prayers, much after the same manner as, Glory be to the Father, &c. was added to the end of each psalm. We may reasonably presume, that these words at first were in the margin of some copies, and afterwards by some transcribers taken into the text itself. (Witham)
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rinnie
Guest
here is howAnyway, sorry about the thread drift, I don’t want to talk about my problems anymore on this thread. I don’t think anyone on this forum can help me.
Can we get back to the topic at hand and what I was talking about? How is our free choice real if we are imperfect and imperfections make free choice a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst?
CCC 1743 God will that man should be left in the hand of his own counsel so that he might of his own accord seek his creator and FREELY attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.
Freedom is the power to act or not to act and so to perform deliberate acts of ones own. Freedom attains perfection in its acts when directed toward God the sovereign Good.
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BobCatholic
Guest
And how is one free when people are created imperfect? Imperfections make free will a cruel joke at best or non-existent at worst.here is how
CCC 1743 God will that man should be left in the hand of his own counsel so that he might of his own accord seek his creator and FREELY attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.
Freedom is the power to act or not to act and so to perform deliberate acts of ones own. Freedom attains perfection in its acts when directed toward God the sovereign Good.
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davidv
Guest
Freedom and imperfections are independent.And how is one free when people are created imperfect? Imperfections make free will a cruel joke at best or non-existent at worst.
Neither determines the other.
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BobCatholic
Guest
Incorrect.Freedom and imperfections are independent.
Neither determines the other.
A person with the imperfection of pride will be prideful.
A person with the imperfection of alcoholism will get drunk.
The imperfection has reduced their free will or eliminated it altogether.
Free will is a cruel joke at best, or gone at worst when imperfections are involved.
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
That’s right. God tells us that actions have consequences. Our failure to obey is a choice.Can the choice between ecstasy (Heaven) and torment (Hell) be considered a real free choice. Is it not more “do it my way or else”.
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
This is a rotten form of cynicism unworthy of a Catholic.And how is one free when people are created imperfect? Imperfections make free will a cruel joke at best or non-existent at worst.
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Vico
Guest
God is infinitely perfect which means perfect in charity, so there is no cruelty in God. God gave mankind and the angels free will, it is good.Incorrect.
A person with the imperfection of pride will be prideful.
A person with the imperfection of alcoholism will get drunk.
The imperfection has reduced their free will or eliminated it altogether.
Free will is a cruel joke at best, or gone at worst when imperfections are involved.
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BobCatholic
Guest
Angels have free will, because they have no imperfections.God is infinitely perfect which means perfect in charity, so there is no cruelty in God. God gave mankind and the angels free will, it is good.
Humans have imperfections. Unless God heals them, that makes free will a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst.
It is all up to God’s will for a person. And God has this tendency not to heal imperfections for some reason. Please explain how that fits with what you said.
Well, you’re welcome to tell me how someone can become perfect. Only those in heaven are perfect.This is a rotten form of cynicism unworthy of a Catholic.
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Vico
Guest
Imperfection is by design. We become perfected through trials over time. It is clearly against the teaching of the Church to insist that “free will a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst.” because it states the God is unjust.Angels have free will, because they have no imperfections.
Humans have imperfections. Unless God heals them, that makes free will a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst.
It is all up to God’s will for a person. And God has this tendency not to heal imperfections for some reason. Please explain how that fits with what you said.
Well, you’re welcome to tell me how someone can become perfect. Only those in heaven are perfect.
Angels are imperfect, in that sense, since there was also the fall of the angels. Only God is infinitely perfect.
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BobCatholic
Guest
Why? That’s like saying “Here weakling who can’t lift 20 pounds, catch this bowling ball.” It is a set up for failure.Imperfection is by design.
Not if it is not the will of God.We become perfected through trials over time.
But you just said that imperfection is by design. Imperfections make it super easy to fail and sin. That is why hell is our default setting. How is that just? Create imperfect people who then sin themselves into oblivion because there is no way to be perfect.It is clearly against the teaching of the Church to insist that “free will a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst.” because it states the God is unjust.
Only God is infinitely perfect, but angels and saints are perfect. Otherwise, angels and saints could never be allowed in heaven (remember “nothing unclean shall enter heaven”)Angels are imperfect, in that sense, since there was also the fall of the angels. Only God is infinitely perfect.
Demons, on the other hand are imperfect, they have the imperfection of pride.
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fbl9
Guest
Hi Bob. i tried making posts in the fashion you do but for me it took forever to make a post. It takes me long enough just to reply in one shot.Why? That’s like saying “Here weakling who can’t lift 20 pounds, catch this bowling ball.” It is a set up for failure.
Not if it is not the will of God.
But you just said that imperfection is by design. Imperfections make it super easy to fail and sin. That is why hell is our default setting. How is that just? Create imperfect people who then sin themselves into oblivion because there is no way to be perfect.
Only God is infinitely perfect, but angels and saints are perfect. Otherwise, angels and saints could never be allowed in heaven (remember “nothing unclean shall enter heaven”)
Demons, on the other hand are imperfect, they have the imperfection of pride.
from the top.
Okay you have a point if it were us catching the ball, as Christians we know that Christ has already caught it it for us.
A Calvinist would say what you say, which Catholic ought not say or believe.
Does not God provide for the sparrows…are not you worth more than a sparrow.
Interesting imperfect=unclean. Not a teaching of the Church. Remember what rinnie said about imperfections do not mean one is unclean.
Are you suggesting God deliberately made some angels imperfect and others perfect?
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Vico
Guest
Why? That’s like saying “Here weakling who can’t lift 20 pounds, catch this bowling ball.” …
- Imperfection
You ask why imperfection is by design. It is because God gave man free will. Without free will man could not subjectively sin. - Perfection
Vico: We become perfected through trials over time. BobCatholic: Not if it is not the will of God.
2015 The way of perfection passes by way of the Cross. There is no holiness without renunciation and spiritual battle.68 Spiritual progress entails the ascesis and mortification that gradually lead to living in the peace and joy of the Beatitudes:
He who climbs never stops going from beginning to beginning, through beginnings that have no end. He never stops desiring what he already knows.69
- Angels and Saints
Some angels fell so will never be in heaven. Also Saints are those that die in the state of grace and so they may be in purgatory.
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BobCatholic
Guest
Mary was created perfect. Are you saying she had no free will because she was perfect?
- Imperfection
You ask why imperfection is by design. It is because God gave man free will. Without free will man could not subjectively sin.
No, that’s clearly not what you’re saying. I believe she had perfect free will, enough to make the choice.
What I am saying is: If one is imperfect, then one will sin. It is only a matter of time. There is no choice unless one has overcome all imperfections.
With people being imperfect, “free will” is a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst. But we are still held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.
And how do I know I’m cooperating good enough? No matter what I do, it is never good enough.It is the will of God and so God gives graces, but perfection will not happen without our cooperation.
Correct. No matter how much we progress, God says “NOT GOOD ENOUGH! MORE!”He who climbs never stops going from beginning to beginning, through beginnings that have no end. He never stops desiring what he already knows.69
How can one ever please God? It is impossible. God is like the parent who is never satisfied and never pleased. It is discouraging and demoralizing to know that it is impossible to please God.
Christ didn’t catch everything, we have to cooperate with God’s grace in addition. This means we have to catch the ball. And we are created imperfect, which makes the ball impossible to catch.Hi Bob. i tried making posts in the fashion you do but for me it took forever to make a post. It takes me long enough just to reply in one shot.
from the top.
Okay you have a point if it were us catching the ball, as Christians we know that Christ has already caught it it for us.
Nope.Does not God provide for the sparrows…are not you worth more than a sparrow.
I am a pitiful speck of dust (I’m copying St. Faustina). I am nothing more than a dog (Jesus said so), if I dare to even try to think better of myself.
Purgatory is used to cleanse one of ATTACHMENTS TO SIN (Imperfections) in addition to venial sins. This is the teaching of the Church.Interesting imperfect=unclean. Not a teaching of the Church. Remember what rinnie said about imperfections do not mean one is unclean.
I don’t know. All I know are the angels are perfect. The fallen ones (demons) are not.Are you suggesting God deliberately made some angels imperfect and others perfect?
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Vico
Guest
The dogma of the Immaculate Conception states “that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege from Almighty God and in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, was kept free of every stain of original sin.”Mary was created perfect. Are you saying she had no free will because she was perfect?
No, that’s clearly not what you’re saying. I believe she had perfect free will, enough to make the choice.
What I am saying is: If one is imperfect, then one will sin. It is only a matter of time. There is no choice unless one has overcome all imperfections.
With people being imperfect, “free will” is a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst. But we are still held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.
Quote:
It is the will of God and so God gives graces, but perfection will not happen without our cooperation.
And how do I know I’m cooperating good enough? No matter what I do, it is never good enough. …
Luke 1
46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name.
Some of the Catholic dogmas of faith show the absolute dependence upon God that all mankind has for what is impossible for man is possible for God. God provides what is needed for every imperfect human to attain salvation, with their cooperation.
- For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary. (De fide.)
- Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification. (De fide.)
- The justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid all sins, even venial sins, without the special privilege of the grace of God. (De fide.)
- God gives all the just sufficent grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)
- The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistable. (De fide.)
- There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious (gratia vere et mere sufficiens). (De fide.)
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BobCatholic
Guest
I believe this. She was created perfect, and is our tainted nature’s solitary boast.The dogma of the Immaculate Conception states “that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege from Almighty God and in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, was kept free of every stain of original sin.”
Some of the Catholic dogmas of faith show the absolute dependence upon God that all mankind has for what is impossible for man is possible for God. God provides what is needed for every imperfect human to attain salvation, with their cooperation.
- For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary. (De fide.)
- Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification. (De fide.)
- The justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid all sins, even venial sins, without the special privilege of the grace of God. (De fide.)
- God gives all the just sufficent grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)
- The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistable. (De fide.)
- There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious (gratia vere et mere sufficiens). (De fide.)
Yes.If you are cooperating then you will repent of every mortal sin and receive absolution for them, at least by the time of your death.
I want to depend on God. But if I’m not progressing and becoming more perfect, then I’m not doing something right. I’ve hit a brick wall and can’t progress further in my current ability, and I’ve asked God for the ability to overcome my imperfections so I can please him. Nothing happened. So I’m on my own and that’s the worst place to be.
AFAIK, I’ve repented of every mortal sin and received absolution for them every time, including those forgotten. If I remember a forgotten sin, I bring them to the tribunal of mercy too.
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Vico
Guest
Then you are at least doing the minimum. Also avoiding venial sins helps because they lead in time to mortal sins.I believe this. She was created perfect, and is our tainted nature’s solitary boast.
Yes.
I want to depend on God. But if I’m not progressing and becoming more perfect, then I’m not doing something right. I’ve hit a brick wall and can’t progress further in my current ability, and I’ve asked God for the ability to overcome my imperfections so I can please him. Nothing happened. So I’m on my own and that’s the worst place to be.
AFAIK, I’ve repented of every mortal sin and received absolution for them every time, including those forgotten. If I remember a forgotten sin, I bring them to the tribunal of mercy too.
Adam and Eve were in a perfect state, free from all sin, as The Blessed Virgin Mary. Catechism 404 “But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature.”
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BobCatholic
Guest
Free from all sin is not perfect, they were created imperfect.Then you are at least doing the minimum. Also avoiding venial sins helps because they lead in time to mortal sins.
Adam and Eve were in a perfect state, free from all sin, as The Blessed Virgin Mary. Catechism 404 “But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature.”
Yes, they were free from all sin, but thanks to imperfections, they fell.
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