Is our free choice real

[BobCatholic]

Those that die is a state of sanctifying grace go to heaven, and may transition through purgatory first due to the need for temporal punishments to remove the attachments the arose from sins that were not already removed through penance and indulgences before death.

So it is clear that imperfections reduce grace. Imperfections that people have no choice in getting. So that negatively impacts free will.

Even those with great merit (which results in greater Beatific Vision and glory) may still need purgatory.

Because they had grace reduced due to imperfections.

When a person does not repent of intentional venial sins the disposition can lead to not receiving actual graces in the future because the persons attitude to not utilize that grace. The actual grace is given as needed, not stored up.

Precisely. Venial sins reduce grace.

Reply to Objection 3: Anyone may increase in wisdom and grace in two ways. First inasmuch as the very habits of wisdom and grace are increased; and in this way Christ did not increase. Secondly, as regards the effects, i. e. inasmuch as they do wiser and greater works; and in this way Christ increased in wisdom and grace even as in age, since in the course of time He did more perfect works, to prove Himself true man, both in the things of God, and in the things of man.

And if you can do good things to increase grace, in the same way grace can be reduced through bad things.

The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83

The red is my point. Imperfections and venial sin cause a reduction in grace.

Purgatory does exist. It is proof that there is a lack of grace to get into heaven, but not a complete lack. That lack is caused by venial sin or imperfections.

Since people have no choice but to be imperfect, thus they have no choice in their temporal punishment.

 

[Vico]

So it is clear that imperfections reduce grace. Imperfections that people have no choice in getting. So that negatively impacts free will.

Because they had grace reduced due to imperfections.

Precisely. Venial sins reduce grace.

And if you can do good things to increase grace, in the same way grace can be reduced through bad things.

The red is my point. Imperfections and venial sin cause a reduction in grace.

Purgatory does exist. It is proof that there is a lack of grace to get into heaven, but not a complete lack. That lack is caused by venial sin or imperfections.

Since people have no choice but to be imperfect, thus they have no choice in their temporal punishment.

No it is not a lack of grace the prevents heaven at the immediate judgement but the disordered attachments to creatures. Attachment is not a lack of grace.

St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo VII 2 ad 3, Venial sin “is not the cause of loss of the loss of grace; thus is it not required that each such sin be rejected in particular, but in a universal way, in so far as venial sin has some degree of opposition to grace.”

Temporal punishment results from mortal and venial sin, but some imperfections are neither mortal or venial sins.

“Since a voluntary act and its disorder are of the essence of sin, venial sin as it is a voluntary act may be defined as a thought, word or deed at variance with the law of God. It retards man in the attainment of his last end while not averting him from it.”

O’Neil, A.C. (1912). Sin. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm

 

[BobCatholic]

No it is not a lack of grace the prevents heaven at the immediate judgement but the disordered attachments to creatures

A disordered attachment to creature is an IMPERFECTION.

And the only thing preventing one from getting into heaven is a LACK OF GRACE.

. Attachment is not a lack of grace.

It is an imperfection and a barrier to getting into heaven.

If grace were sufficient to get into heaven, obviously that means there is missing grace here, since one can’t get in to heaven without having those imperfections destroyed.

Temporal punishment results from mortal and venial sin, but some imperfections are neither mortal or venial sins.

But we are still held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve. We are still in the jail cell.

You still haven’t addressed why some people have higher levels of grace versus lower levels of grace.

The difference between those two are IMPERFECTIONS. Thus imperfections reduce grace.

Since we have no choice in the matter that we are created imperfect, our free will is a cruel joke at best and non-existent at worst.

 

[Vico]

A disordered attachment to creature is an IMPERFECTION.

And the only thing preventing one from getting into heaven is a LACK OF GRACE.

It is an imperfection and a barrier to getting into heaven.

If grace were sufficient to get into heaven, obviously that means there is missing grace here, since one can’t get in to heaven without having those imperfections destroyed.

But we are still held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve. We are still in the jail cell.

You still haven’t addressed why some people have higher levels of grace versus lower levels of grace.

The difference between those two are IMPERFECTIONS. Thus imperfections reduce grace.

Since we have no choice in the matter that we are created imperfect, our free will is a cruel joke at best and non-existent at worst.

As explained before, it is not a matter of levels of grace. Grace is given at the time it is needed, per act of will, in greater or lesser strength. Grace is not accumulated. To illustrate one that has received sanctifying grace of baptism has a clean slate. Start lists of the following five things:

1. 
   *]mortal sin
   *]venial sin
   *]demerit
   *]temporal punishment for sins (list of attachments to sin)
   *]merit
   
   If at the moment of death the person does not have a state of sanctifying grace, the list of merits is discarded.
   
   If at the moment of death the person has a state of sanctifying grace, the list of mortal sins is already empty, but then the list of venial sins and demerits is discarded. This means the remaining lists are merit and temporal punishments for sins. Those that have no temporal punishments for sins proceed immediately to heaven, and those that have some are first purified of their attachments and then proceed to heaven. The Beatific Vision and glory in heaven for both those groups are in proportion to the list of merits.

 

[BobCatholic]

As explained before, it is not a matter of levels of grace.

How is it not levels of grace?

Tell me, what is the difference between someone who dies and goes to heaven and one who dies and goes to purgatory? They clearly have different levels of grace!

Grace is not accumulated.

It is given. Poured into a cup, which is us.

We are a leaky cup, because we are imperfect.

If at the moment of death the person does not have a state of sanctifying grace, the list of merits is discarded.

Correct. Grace = 0 in this person.

If at the moment of death the person has a state of sanctifying grace, the list of mortal sins is already empty, but then the list of venial sins and demerits is discarded. This means the remaining lists are merit and temporal punishments for sins.

Hold it.

Why are not the temporal punishments discarded as well? Discard venial sins and demerits but not temporal punishments?

If there are no venial sins or demerits (since they’re discarded) then why are they being punished for no reason? This is unjust and you’re painting God as unjust. I reject this view.

Purgatory exists because we have less grace than the one going directly to heaven. There are levels of grace because purgatory exists. Venial sins and demerits and imperfections and temporal punishments all go together and are linked together. When ALL are gone, then they go to heaven. If one has venial sins/demerits/imperfections, the punishment goes along with it.

Even more reasons that imperfections reduce free will. One who is imperfect has no choice but to go to purgatory.

 

[laylow]

I’m with Bob on all of this. I had a very rough childhood of abuse from my alcoholic dad who had mental illness. I have forgiven him. However, I have multiple mental illnesses and now have a chronic physical illness which causes daily pain. With my constant mental anguish, I am in constant torment, I sleep like 3 hours a night. I will never make it to the end. It is not possible. I have sought out help in all places, it is not there. I pray constantly and go to church. I have no family and as I said severely depressed. Meds do not work. I am set up to fail.

If my choices are eternal life or eternal torment, based on my situation, I’d probably rather not exist at all. It doesn’t seem fair, that I will suffer so much here and there suffer for eternity. My mind is my worst enemy, it constantly churns of fear.

 

[Vico]

How is it not levels of grace?

Tell me, what is the difference between someone who dies and goes to heaven and one who dies and goes to purgatory? They clearly have different levels of grace!

It is given. Poured into a cup, which is us.

We are a leaky cup, because we are imperfect.

Correct. Grace = 0 in this person.

Hold it.

Why are not the temporal punishments discarded as well? Discard venial sins and demerits but not temporal punishments?

If there are no venial sins or demerits (since they’re discarded) then why are they being punished for no reason? This is unjust and you’re painting God as unjust. I reject this view.

Purgatory exists because we have less grace than the one going directly to heaven. There are levels of grace because purgatory exists. Venial sins and demerits and imperfections and temporal punishments all go together and are linked together. When ALL are gone, then they go to heaven. If one has venial sins/demerits/imperfections, the punishment goes along with it.

Even more reasons that imperfections reduce free will. One who is imperfect has no choice but to go to purgatory.

No, temporal punishment and merit are the factors used for going to purgatory and the later glory in heaven.

You ask: "…what is the difference between someone who dies and goes to heaven and one who dies and goes to purgatory? "

It is the presence of temporal punishment due to sin that remains in those that go first to purgatory.

You ask “Why are not the temporal punishments discarded as well? Discard venial sins and demerits but not temporal punishments?”

Venial sins are forgiven at death since they have no eternal consequences, but any temporal punishment due sins for both mortal and venial sins must be removed in purgatory (and while there, by indulgences given by the living).

Catechism
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83

 

[laylow]

It is dogma of faith of the Catholic Church that Adam and Eve did fall through the exercise of free will. Also those baptized that do not commit post baptismal mortal sin will be in heaven. If, as you claim, you do not have free will, and have been baptized, then you will be in heaven, because you could not sin mortally such as is the case for the infant that has not developed the use of reason.

The Church condemned the teachings of Luther and and Calvin that denied free will.

Council of Trent, Session VI, cap. i and v (original Denzinger numbers)

Chap. 1. On the Inability of Nature and of the Law to Justify Man

793 The holy Synod decrees first that for a correct and sound understanding of the doctrine of justification it is necessary that each one recognize and confess that, whereas all men had lost their innocence in the prevarication of Adam [Rom. 5:12; 1 Cor. 15:22: see n. 130], “having become unclean” [Isa. 64:6], and (as the Apostle says), “by nature children of wrath” [Eph. 2:3], as it (the Synod) has set forth in the decree on original sin, to that extent were they the servants of sin [Rom. 5:20], and under the power of the devil and of death, that not only the gentiles by the force of nature [can. 1], but not even the Jews by the very letter of the law of Moses were able to be liberated or to rise therefrom, although free will was not extinguished in them [can. 5], however weakened and debased in its powers [see n. 81].

Chap. 5. On the Necessity of Preparation for Justification of

Adults, and Whence it Proceeds

797 It [the Synod] furthermore declares that in adults the beginning of that justification must be derived from the predisposing grace [can. 3] of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from his vocation, whereby without any existing merits on their part they are called, so that they who by sin were turned away from God, through His stimulating and assisting grace are disposed to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and cooperating with the same grace [can. 4 and 5], in such wise that, while God touches the heart of man through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself receiving that inspiration does not do nothing at all inasmuch as he can indeed reject it, nor on the other hand can he [can. 3] of his own free will without the grace of God move himself to justice before Him. Hence, when it is said in the Sacred Writings: “Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you” [Zach. 1:3], we are reminded of our liberty; when we reply: “Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted” [Lam. 5:21], we confess that we are anticipated by the grace of God.

814 Can. 4. If anyone shall say that man’s free will moved and aroused by God does not cooperate by assenting to God who rouses and calls, whereby it disposes and prepares itself to obtain the grace of justification, and that it cannot dissent, if it wishes, but that like something inanimate it does nothing at all and is merely in a passive state: let him be anathema [cf. n. 797].

815 Can. 5. If anyone shall say that after the sin of Adam man’s free will was lost and destroyed, or that it is a thing in name only, indeed a title without a reality, a fiction, moreover, brought into the Church by Satan: let him be anathema [cf. n. 793, 797].

One statement from Luther:

“omnipotence and foreknowledge of God, I repeat, utterly destroy the doctrine of ‘free-will’…doubtless it gives the greatest possible offense to common sense or natural reason, that God, Who is proclaimed as being full of mercy and goodness, and so on, should of His own mere will abandon, harden and damn men, as though He delighted in the sins and great eternal torments of such poor wretches. it seems an iniquitous, cruel, intolerable thought to think of God; and it is this that has been such a stumbling block to so many great men down through the ages. And who would not stumble at it? I have stumbled at it myself more than once, down to the deepest pit of despair, so that I wished I had never been made a man. (That was before I knew how health-giving that despair was, and how close to grace.)” Luther

 

[Vico]

One statement from Luther:

“omnipotence and foreknowledge of God, I repeat, utterly destroy the doctrine of ‘free-will’…doubtless it gives the greatest possible offense to common sense or natural reason, that God, Who is proclaimed as being full of mercy and goodness, and so on, should of His own mere will abandon, harden and damn men, as though He delighted in the sins and great eternal torments of such poor wretches. it seems an iniquitous, cruel, intolerable thought to think of God; and it is this that has been such a stumbling block to so many great men down through the ages. And who would not stumble at it? I have stumbled at it myself more than once, down to the deepest pit of despair, so that I wished I had never been made a man. (That was before I knew how health-giving that despair was, and how close to grace.)” Luther

Yes, in Bondage of the Will. He spoke of unqualified free will. Enough free will to be presonally responsible for sin is what the Catholic Church teaches. We cooperate with the grace of God. There are two dogmas of faith on actual grace pertaining to the will:

• There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will. (De fide.)
• There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will. (De fide.)

Ref: Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott.

 

[laylow]

Yes, in Bondage of the Will. He spoke of unqualified free will. Enough free will to be presonally responsible for sin is what the Catholic Church teaches. We cooperate with the grace of God. There are two dogmas of faith on actual grace pertaining to the will:

• There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will. (De fide.)
• There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will. (De fide.)

Ref: Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott.

The quote seemed to be a bit of what Bob is struggling with.

 

[laylow]

If you believe in the Fewness of the Saved, Bob has the right idea here. According to that you would have to suffer an enormous amount and do it while being Catholic, and do it without sin and still do great deeds. Then you may make it to purgatory where you will have to suffer much more to get to Heaven.

 

[Vico]

If you believe in the Fewness of the Saved, Bob has the right idea here. According to that you would have to suffer an enormous amount and do it while being Catholic, and do it without sin and still do great deeds. Then you may make it to purgatory where you will have to suffer much more to get to Heaven.

There is suffering in life, just as Christ suffered, we take up our crosses. Purgatory is a grace of purification for heaven.

Catechism

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 …

 

[laylow]

There is suffering in life, just as Christ suffered, we take up our crosses. Purgatory is a grace of purification for heaven.

Catechism

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 …

Entirely different because it is not eternal. Many sermons I have heard say the intensity of suffering is just as bad…

 

[Vico]

Entirely different because it is not eternal. Many sermons I have heard say the intensity of suffering is just as bad…

Purgatory is not eternal. As the Catechism states, purgatory is to remove attachments to sin that remain.

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."84

 

[laylow]

Purgatory is not eternal. As the Catechism states, purgatory is to remove attachments to sin that remain.

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."84

Yes, I said the difference is that it is not eternal, but the punishment is said to be just an intense.

 

[Vico]

Yes, I said the difference is that it is not eternal, but the punishment is said to be just an intense.

It is not the same. The Council of Lyons and The Council of Florence declared that the souls of the damned are punished with unequal punishments. Justice demands that their punishment be in accordance with guilt. Those in Purgatory know they are saved, but those in Hell know that they are not.

 

[BobCatholic]

No, temporal punishment and merit are the factors used for going to purgatory and the later glory in heaven.

You didn’t answer my question.

How are the levels of grace, different from someone going directly to heaven versus someone who goes into purgatory?

I argue there are different levels of grace.

We are saved by grace alone. Not because we worked our way into heaven without the aid of grace.

So if we get into heaven, we get there by God’s grace alone.

But something is preventing us from getting into heaven directly, that is a lack of grace.

It is the presence of temporal punishment due to sin that remains in those that go first to purgatory.

Correct, temporal punishment shows that there is missing grace.

Venial sins are forgiven at death since they have no eternal consequences, but any temporal punishment due sins for both mortal and venial sins must be removed in purgatory (and while there, by indulgences given by the living).

So how is this not a temporary reduction in grace?

You are right in saying venial sins have no eternal consequences, and I don’t argue against that.

What I do argue against is that venial sins do not affect the level of grace. The existence of purgatory is a loud testimony that grace has different levels in people.

 

[BobCatholic]

I’m with Bob on all of this. I had a very rough childhood of abuse from my alcoholic dad who had mental illness. I have forgiven him. However, I have multiple mental illnesses and now have a chronic physical illness which causes daily pain. With my constant mental anguish, I am in constant torment, I sleep like 3 hours a night. I will never make it to the end. It is not possible. I have sought out help in all places, it is not there. I pray constantly and go to church. I have no family and as I said severely depressed. Meds do not work. I am set up to fail.

If my choices are eternal life or eternal torment, based on my situation, I’d probably rather not exist at all. It doesn’t seem fair, that I will suffer so much here and there suffer for eternity. My mind is my worst enemy, it constantly churns of fear.

I reject the idea that we have no free will at all.

I also reject that we have full free will.

I believe that free will is at best a cruel joke or at worst non-existent. It exists somewhere in that continuum depending on the person.

I question why we have things this way:

• it is horrifically difficult to get into heaven versus
• it is ridiculous easy to go to hell. Going to hell is our default setting from birth.

The scales are out of balance. Seriously out of balance. As a result how do we know we have free will at all?

If the scales were in balance, and it was just as easy to get to heaven as it is to go to hell, then I can easily believe that we have full free will.

One statement from Luther:

I reject Luther’s statement. Poor Martin suffered from serious mental issues and that negatively affected his theology.

Let me give you this way of thinking I also hold:

We don’t have any choice whether evil hits us. We will suffer in life, there is no choice about that.

However, when evil hits us, we have a choice: Become bitter or become better.

Choose to become better. Yes, it is hard, but worth it.

Is this a contradiction in my way of thinking? Possibly. If I was a Pelagian, yes, it would be a contradiction. But not if I’m Catholic.

 

[laylow]

I reject the idea that we have no free will at all.

I also reject that we have full free will.

I believe that free will is at best a cruel joke or at worst non-existent. It exists somewhere in that continuum depending on the person.

I question why we have things this way:

• it is horrifically difficult to get into heaven versus
• it is ridiculous easy to go to hell. Going to hell is our default setting from birth.

The scales are out of balance. Seriously out of balance. As a result how do we know we have free will at all?

If the scales were in balance, and it was just as easy to get to heaven as it is to go to hell, then I can easily believe that we have full free will.

I reject Luther’s statement. Poor Martin suffered from serious mental issues and that negatively affected his theology.

Let me give you this way of thinking I also hold:

We don’t have any choice whether evil hits us. We will suffer in life, there is no choice about that.

However, when evil hits us, we have a choice: Become bitter or become better.

Choose to become better. Yes, it is hard, but worth it.

Is this a contradiction in my way of thinking? Possibly. If I was a Pelagian, yes, it would be a contradiction. But not if I’m Catholic.

The church does not say how hard it is to get to Heaven, they ride the fence on that, understandably, since only God knows.

Mental illness is doing to joke about. It makes people make horrible decisions.

 

[BobCatholic]

The church does not say how hard it is to get to Heaven, they ride the fence on that, understandably, since only God knows.

True. That’s the problem.

I read things like St. Leonard’s sermon and wonder how I’ll make it. Then I listen to a typical homily and wonder who I won’t make it.

Mental illness is doing to joke about. It makes people make horrible decisions.

I agree. I don’t joke about it. It is one imperfection which reduces or eliminates free will (something I argued in this thread).