Is poor Catechetics the problem?

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peary said:
Poor catechetics is definitely one answer. A lack of sacredness in Mass is another. A lack of the sense of sin is another. Still, another is the power of our contemporary secular social mores over Christian families. In the end, we individually (and all) have to answer to God for our rejection of the Truth and His Church. I don’t think anyone will be able to find a legitimate excuse when confronted by Christ at the end of our lives.
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Excuse? NO. Is there room for improvement? YES! Can I help as an individual by setting a good example? ABSOLUTELY!
God Bless! 🙂
 
Ag_not:
But I can’t help wondering, if these people had been properly, and I mean properly catechized in the beginning, would they have left the church.
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Honestly, if they were properly Catechized, you probably will find that many of them would not have been confirmed in the first place.

Some people get very enamored with the whole concept and don’t seem to understand what the implications of certain rules are. Other folks seem to think that it’s all gonna be OK until they come face to face with a certain rule.

Whatever the reason, I think that if people were given the truth, blatantly and up front they would have a better understanding and more information at hand with which to make the decision on.

But…to me it all seems part of a whole…improper catechism or not, priests take great pride announcing just how many folks got confirmed - maybe there is a statistical thing that the diocese look at per parish…
The molestation thing doesn’t help either.

I do think that many people come into Catholicism with blinkers on their face, not fully understanding or realizing what they are in for.

Then, of course, there are others that understand, question the rules and get told that they have to proceed on blind faith if they want to be catholic.
Beware of that too…you need to question and if something does not right, research it. Jesus says that it’s good to question.
To be forced into something saying that you just have to trust it is bad…and it’s dangerous because it sets you up for hurt later.
 
jmcrae said:
They still have Original Sin, so how can they go to Heaven? :confused:
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If babies die before they have a chance to be baptized, the failure to baptize was obviously not the fault of the baby. Only an unmerciful God will consign them to Hell for that. Our God is a God of mercy. The idea that unbaptized babies go to Hell is a Calvinist notion and inconsistent with mercy.

I was studying Dante’s Divine Comedy at the time that Limbo was consigned to the status of myth. I always wondered what happened to the unbaptized, so years later I asked a priest. You have the answer. But don’t take my word for it, ask a priest.

Similarly, if someone of any age dies who has never had a chance to hear the Word of God, or has heard it but it was explained imperfectly, that person will also have a 2nd chance.

Those of us that HAVE HEARD don’t have that excuse. Those that have heard and rejected it have done so at their peril.
 
MelanieAnne said:
If babies die before they have a chance to be baptized, the failure to baptize was obviously not the fault of the baby. Only an unmerciful God will consign them to Hell for that. Our God is a God of mercy. The idea that unbaptized babies go to Hell is a Calvinist notion and inconsistent with mercy.

I was studying Dante’s Divine Comedy at the time that Limbo was consigned to the status of myth. I always wondered what happened to the unbaptized, so years later I asked a priest. You have the answer. But don’t take my word for it, ask a priest.

Similarly, if someone of any age dies who has never had a chance to hear the Word of God, or has heard it but it was explained imperfectly, that person will also have a 2nd chance.

Those of us that HAVE HEARD don’t have that excuse. Those that have heard and rejected it have done so at their peril.
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I have heard that babies who were not baptized on earth might be baptized by the Angels (a pious belief; not a doctrine or dogma, and certainly not de fide), but I have never heard that someone with Original Sin could go to Heaven - in fact, I’m pretty sure it is a de fide dogma that any kind of unremitted sin at all, prevents us from entering into Heaven.

We don’t know whether these babies are baptized by the Angels, so we don’t know whether or not they go to Heaven. We may hope, but we can’t assert it as a certainty.
 
jmcrae said:
I have heard that babies who were not baptized on earth might be baptized by the Angels (a pious belief; not a doctrine or dogma, and certainly not de fide), but I have never heard that someone with Original Sin could go to Heaven - in fact, I’m pretty sure it is a de fide dogma that any kind of unremitted sin at all, prevents us from entering into Heaven.

We don’t know whether these babies are baptized by the Angels, so we don’t know whether or not they go to Heaven. We may hope, but we can’t assert it as a certainty.
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It’s possible that unbaptized babies spend a brief period in purgatory, I didn’t think to nitpick with the priest when I asked the question, but really, what do they have to atone for personally if they died within the first few days or weeks of life?

But as I said, don’t take my word for it, ask a priest!
 
MelanieAnne said:
It’s possible that unbaptized babies spend a brief period in purgatory, I didn’t think to nitpick with the priest when I asked the question, but really, what do they have to atone for personally if they died within the first few days or weeks of life?
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The Sin of Adam, with which all human beings are conceived, must be atoned in all of us, before we die.

But they wouldn’t go to Purgatory, since Purgatory is for those who need to become detached from personal sin - and, as you have already pointed out, they have no personal sin.

So, the one place we know they don’t go, is Purgatory. 😉
 
jmcrae said:
The Sin of Adam, with which all human beings are conceived, must be atoned in all of us, before we die.

But they wouldn’t go to Purgatory, since Purgatory is for those who need to become detached from personal sin - and, as you have already pointed out, they have no personal sin.

So, the one place we know they don’t go, is Purgatory. 😉
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A merciful God would not let those babies go to Hell. So if they’re not going to Hell and they’re not going to Purgatory, Paradise is all that remains.

BUT AS I SAID ~ Don’t take my word for it, ask a priest!
 
Limbo was a theological speculation.

Now, it is more correct to say that God, being both merciful (innocent cannot be in hell) and just (no sin allowed in heaven) uses a means known only to him (as far as we are concerned) to deal with them. It is possible that God, since he is all knowing, knows which of these would have accepted him had they lived.
 
ralphinal said:
Limbo was a theological speculation.

Now, it is more correct to say that God, being both merciful (innocent cannot be in hell) and just (no sin allowed in heaven) uses a means known only to him (as far as we are concerned) to deal with them. It is possible that God, since he is all knowing, knows which of these would have accepted him had they lived.
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Exactly. I have given up trying to understand how everything works. My mind is human and finite. God is infinite.

People get into a lot of trouble when they start limiting God to what they, with their finite human mind, can understand. Then they start believing all kinds of nonsense because it “makes sense” to them. God is God, we were made in His Image, but we are human and He is Divine. We will never be Divine and it is a tribute to human vanity and arrogance for anyone to believe that we can. Because we are not Divine, we are limited in what we can understand about God. God is not limited to what we can understand, WE are limited. Mix that up and you end up with a boatload of confusion.
 
I was a cradle Catholic who received no real catechesis as a child and now, at 21, I am playing catch-up.

Perhaps this might be why I sorta like the idea of becoming a theology professor, to teach the faith but to also come to a greater understanding of the faith myself.
 
MelanieAnne said:
Uh, no, there is no Limbo. It’s just a story.
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If there is such a place as Paradise, then it is the Limbo of the Infants. (Paradise is not the same place as Heaven. Abraham was in Paradise after he died, but he did not go to Heaven until after Christ was resurrected from the dead.)
 
jmcrae said:
If there is such a place as Paradise, then it is the Limbo of the Infants. (Paradise is not the same place as Heaven. Abraham was in Paradise after he died, but he did not go to Heaven until after Christ was resurrected from the dead.)
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Babies go to heaven then. There’s no limbo, of any kind.
 
LotusCarsLtd said:
I was a cradle Catholic who received no real catechesis as a child and now, at 21, I am playing catch-up.
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21 is still quite young. I didn’t learn anything about my own faith as a Protestant until after reaching adulthood, despite many hours spent in Sunday School. It’s only when, as an adult, you start to own your faith, that you really begin to learn anything. Everything you do as a child is just laying the groundwork.
Perhaps this might be why I sorta like the idea of becoming a theology professor, to teach the faith but to also come to a greater understanding of the faith myself.
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I have heard that the best way to evangelize someone who is lukewarm in the faith, is to teach them to evangelize others. 🙂
 
I would say yes but would also add that not only is the Catechecis missing but secularization of family members. Catachism of the RCC indicates that Oral Tradition working with Scriptures teaches the fullness of Doctine with regard to the Chruch yet Many Catholics hold only to Oral Tradition and miss out on Sacred Scriptures. I think this type of thinking has led a lot of families “leave the spiritual stuff” to the experts (or priest and the “super” religious) That alows them to be secular and meet only the most basic of requirements with out actually understanding their faith. Generations of this attitudes has left the US and other countries with Catholics who think abortion is ok, or that the church apart from religious practices is irrelevant in their moment by moment lives. Or they become secular. Children hearing the truth at Mass start looking for it and miss it in their family lives and find it elsewhere thus they leave. Thats my point of view anyway.
 
MelanieAnne said:
Babies go to heaven then. There’s no limbo, of any kind.
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We don’t know that for certain. There are many reasons why they should, and many reasons why they shouldn’t. Our animal instincts call us to protect the young, so we perceive them as cute and innocent - this ensures their survival, because they are totally dependent on us.

God perceives them as they are. We simply don’t know what He sees. Does He see their cuteness and lack of sin, or does He see their Stain of Adam and their lack of good deeds? 🤷

So, we cannot definitively say, unbaptized babies go to Heaven. All we can say is, we trust God to judge them correctly, and we baptize them as early as possible (and especially when they are in danger of death), rather than depend on the idea of them going automatically to Heaven, without any evidence either way.
 
The first thing every human being who has reached the age of reason should learn, is how to do an emergency baptism.

First step is to get to some water. Take the patient to the water, unless the patient cannot be moved. If the patient cannot be moved, fill a container with as clean water as possible, and bring it back without delay. (Anything that would not normally be called water - such as coffee, tea, soda, milk, kool-aid, spittle, etc. cannot be used for baptism. But if it’s not clear, but you would normally call it water, then it’s okay. But use the cleanest water you can find.)

While pouring relatively clean water over the person, say, “If you are still alive, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”
 
jmcrae said:
We don’t know that for certain. There are many reasons why they should, and many reasons why they shouldn’t. Our animal instincts call us to protect the young, so we perceive them as cute and innocent - this ensures their survival, because they are totally dependent on us.

God perceives them as they are. We simply don’t know what He sees. Does He see their cuteness and lack of sin, or does He see their Stain of Adam and their lack of good deeds? 🤷

So, we cannot definitively say, unbaptized babies go to Heaven. All we can say is, we trust God to judge them correctly, and we baptize them as early as possible (and especially when they are in danger of death), rather than depend on the idea of them going automatically to Heaven, without any evidence either way.
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The original reason this subject was brought up in this thread is that Limbo was advanced as an example of a DOCTRINE that had CHANGED. The answer was that it was never a DOCTRINE and so when it was determined that there was no such thing as limbo, Doctrine could not have changed because Limbo was never doctrine.

Babies go to heaven according to the most learned and astute priest in my parish. That’s good enough for me, and it is too bad if it isn’t good enough for anyone else. They are FREE TO ASK THEIR OWN PRIEST!!! The sort of Calvinist thinking that if someone doesn’t go to a particular church or whatever, then they are going to Hell is repugnant to me. A merciful God is inconsistent with that sort of thinking. I submit that vanity also plays no small part among those who believe it to be so, and believe they’re the ones, because of their circumstances, who are “saved”.

I realize that such a thing slams into the need for baptism. I’m not denying the importance of baptism. Having said that, it doesn’t bother me that God would bring unbaptized babies to be with Him and it any person who would be upset by that has a problem, IMO. If any unbaptized person is ever made worthy to be brought to the presence of God, an unbaptized baby is certainly first. Imagine a baby who is accidentally born alive as a result of a botched abortion. This is unfortunately something that can happen in this world. But after being born alive, that baby dies within a few hours. That baby cannot be going to Hell.

This may be a hot button issue with me. It is something I have thought about for nearly 40 years. And my own granddaughter is 7 months old today. She was baptized in October, but had she not been, or had we lost her before then, I cannot believe, and will never accept the notion, that she would have gone to hell. That’s just silly.
 
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