po18guy
Well-known member
STOP THIS! This is typical, yes typical LDS deception. Lies and deception are OK for expanding the LDS faith. Is that the foundation you want? A lie? You are twisting words and losing what credibility you have.
- Status
M
mfbukowski
Guest
I love this paragraph
In other words, we don’t have a clue. So we’ll go with what the people want to hear.
newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm
M
mfbukowski
Guest
How am I twisting words? These are quotes from your sources?
You give me no credibility anyway. I am simply quoting em as I see em. I am sorry it upsets you, genuinely. I didn’t expect this reaction.
I am trying to find out why you believe this stuff? It makes no sense to me, so I am hoping to learn by you defending it, I honestly mean no offense. How is it a lie? It is your source!
A
Ag_not
Guest
You cannot change a dogma or doctrine that DOES NOT AND DID NOT EXIST.
**’‘Limbo has never been defined as church dogma **and is not mentioned in the current Catechism of the Catholic Church, which states simply that unbaptized infants are entrusted to God’s mercy.’’
Any number of people chosing for whatever reasons to believe or hope for certain things off their own backs, does NOT mean it is, or ever was, Church Dogma or Doctrine.
D
dzheremi
Guest
Call me crazy, but I’m glad the Church does not define itself in favor of one position or another in this case. As the article that Ag_not linked mentions, there are several different possible scenarios by which the unbaptized infant could be saved, and any one of them could be just as possible as any other. We do not precisely know how God “works” in this situation (as in so many others!), only that He does.
I do not think it has anything with telling the people what they want to hear. We just know it would be wrong to presume to know exactly how it happens when neither Tradition or Scripture are clear about it.
I
inJESUS
Guest
Yes, it is a huge problem specially in a time when everything must be explained.
H
HappyRevert
Guest
Welcome Back Ruby!!! It’s great to be revert
H
HappyRevert
Guest
I have to admit I used to think it was Jesus and not Mary too,
even when I was attending regularly…
This may be a bit off topic, but I had the most interesting conversation with my oldest son early Christmas morning. He has started attending a “Bible church” (he is an adult) and was objecting to the fact that our priests don’t teach the parishioners enough. It was interesting to me because he said that we should spend as much time teaching at Sunday mass as we could because that is the one time you are pretty sure everyone will be there (everyone who is at all interested anyway). He suggested we increase our mass times to be an hour and a half or two hours to ensure the homily could be increased to a half an hour or hour so that all of our people could be taught better. Although I countered with why we do things the way we do, I have to admire the logic in it.
PS Although I’m happy he is being spiritually fed right now (always better than hedonism to which he is very attracted) I’ve been praying he come back to the Catholic church, so any prayers for that would be greatly appreciated.
po18guy
Well-known member
You have taken the quote completely out of context, making it sound as though Christ’s Church is a democracy. It most definitely is not. “The faith of the people” is not that which Catholics just happened to believe at the time. It is the deposit of revealed truth, tested over 1,975 years. Her teachings have not changed, but various councils have defined them definitively, in answer to various heresies. I do not want anyone, especially you, to be confused or unsure of this.
One blessed day, when your faith leaves you flat, may the fulness of truth appeal to you. LDS beliefs have changed in substance over the years. That has been discussed ad nauseum in other threads. When discussing the world’s oldest organization, you must place a context when discussing quotes or decisions, otherwise one can easily be mislead.
Christ’s peace.
S
seekdatruth
Guest
I give mfbokowski credit for tenacity.
But “winning” arguments in the way he does is hardly convincing for me. Gaining converts with trickery is hardly saving anyone’s soul.
But “winning” arguments in the way he does is hardly convincing for me. Gaining converts with trickery is hardly saving anyone’s soul.
P
PJM
Guest
A wounderful Post! Thanks,I was just wondering. For the ex-catholicss here, I mean, not people that were never catholic in the first place.
In one way, it seems like too simple an answer, and in another way, it seems to me to make a lot of sense.
Ive read tons of stories here from ex catholics who now believe they are home. Their criticisms of the Catholic Church vary yet they seem to also echo each other.
Everything from not feeling a ‘‘vibe’’ in the community, to priestly abuse, to too many rules and regulations, to heavens knows what else, and everything in between.
But I can’t help wondering, if these people had been properly, and I mean properly catechised in the beginning, would they have left the church.
I’m beginning to get the idea that the lack of decent catechetics in these peoples lives is what casued them to leave the church so quickly and readily, or, as in some cases, over a period of time.
The catechism is one of the most awesome documents Ive ever read. It is an educational masterpiece in my view, and from it you get all the referreces to scripture, tradition and early church fathers, church documents, saints, and heaven knows everything else, to flesh out any statement, claim, or instruction made in it.
The catechist I am receiving instruction from is awesome, and Father has made time for myself and another woman who are, erm, a bit troublesomeoutside of class, and gives us tons more stuff to work with and study.
I can’t help but think if cradle catholics and those who left the church had received a good solid basis in catechetics, they would never have the trouble they do with certain scriptural verses, would realise that the mass is not a popularity contest but celebrating the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, for us, The Eucharist is Real, and the ONLY and TOTAL focus should be on HIM and HIM alone, and would never listen to Pastor Nicey Spicey and think WOW! Finally I see the light!!! They would be able to correct his or her misguided attempts from the get go.
Just wondering. Any thoughts? And if that is so, then who needs to start doing the correcting? Churches? Schools? Families?
Bruxilda x
Anyone who would deny this is wither underinformed or uninformed.
This is among the most serious and prevelant issues in the RCC today.
The next questions to ask are:
- Why is this?
- What can be done about it?
- How do we go about fixing the problem?
PJM m.c
S
seekdatruth
Guest
I’m not sure about question 1, but as for 2, see posts 28 and 29.
How can the hierarchy of the Church be convinced this is an important change to make it standard and uniform, I WISH I KNEW!
It seems, as with all things that are around for a long time, that the institution can be set in its ways, especially when it is not a democracy and rightly so shouldn’t be. Even so, it wouldn’t require a change in actual doctrine, IMHO, because all we’d be doing is changing the approach to teaching. It’s more of instilling a positive attitude towards what we already know to be true, which can be difficult when up against the modern materialism and “carpe diem” attitudes deeply embedded in our culture. Churches that have fewer rules, or promise things such as “faith healing”, “celestial bonds” to loved ones, and material “life success” are enticing because they tell people what they want to hear. They proclaim a life of Christ should be easier than what the CC teaches. The Catholic Church knows there’s a whole lot we probably don’t want to hear, at least not until we have reached a level of maturity in our faith that allows us to accept it with all our hearts. Once I realized how much God loves me, it has become a cake walk, as far as dealing with rules of the Church. Life is not easy, but then no one ever said it would be. Therefore, I think we need to work on the hearts of our youth, as opposed to shoving it down their throats and telling them to just shut up and color because rules are rules, etc. That’s part of what made me leave in the first place, and I’m far from alone on that. Now I have a hard time figuring out how I ever lived without the Church.
J
jmcrae
Guest
The Devil gets into it, in the Catholic Church.
We have parents who want to be their children’s first teachers, but can’t find resources to help either themselves or their children.
Then, they finally get their kids to Mass after a huge battle, and a priest says, “Don’t drag your children to Mass,” in the hearing of the children, who then rebel against their parents and say, “But Father says we are not to be dragged to Mass against our will. Don’t you have respect for your priests?”
What are the parents supposed to do, in that situation?
We do have missionary priests, and the first thing they are told when they start preaching is, “Oh, this is not our culture. The people are not used to hearing fiery sermons. Soften it down a bit. Oh, the people are not used to the Rosary, or the Brown Scapular, so don’t insist on these devotions. The people don’t know of the Legion of Mary, so don’t start up a Legion of Mary in this parish, because it is not our culture, here.” So the missionary priest, who is a stranger trying to make sense of a new culture, tries to make his message fit in with the local culture, and finds himself frustrated at every turn - every time he opens his mouth, someone is criticizing him.
So, the missionaries end up just as impotent as the local priests, and we are no further ahead.
We have parents who want to be their children’s first teachers, but can’t find resources to help either themselves or their children.
Then, they finally get their kids to Mass after a huge battle, and a priest says, “Don’t drag your children to Mass,” in the hearing of the children, who then rebel against their parents and say, “But Father says we are not to be dragged to Mass against our will. Don’t you have respect for your priests?”
What are the parents supposed to do, in that situation?
We do have missionary priests, and the first thing they are told when they start preaching is, “Oh, this is not our culture. The people are not used to hearing fiery sermons. Soften it down a bit. Oh, the people are not used to the Rosary, or the Brown Scapular, so don’t insist on these devotions. The people don’t know of the Legion of Mary, so don’t start up a Legion of Mary in this parish, because it is not our culture, here.” So the missionary priest, who is a stranger trying to make sense of a new culture, tries to make his message fit in with the local culture, and finds himself frustrated at every turn - every time he opens his mouth, someone is criticizing him.
So, the missionaries end up just as impotent as the local priests, and we are no further ahead.
S
seekdatruth
Guest
I admire any priest, because what other profession requires such commitment besides the ordained? But most of all the one who stands up to such criticism and perseveres nonetheless. I pray for the priest that seems to be faltering under the pressure. God Bless them!
F
fhansen
Guest
**While the Church can always do a better job in her teaching mission-and I think the opportunity to do so is better now than ever-we also have to remember that there are reasons besides poor catechesis that people leave the Church. The very need for our faith in the first place is due to the enmity, created by man, existing between man and God -and that enmity doesn’t disappear just because we hear the Word preached, no matter how well.
Life itself is a schoolroom that should confirm for us the validity of Gods revelation-that mans’ way doesn’t cut it while Gods way does-but sometimes it takes a good part of a lifetime of experience or hard knocks just to get to the point where we’re receptive to hearing about this other “way”. And then if we hear the Word or, better yet if it already resides in our hearts because we’ve been taught it well at some earlier point in our lives, it can begin to have its effect and true conversion can start to take place.
**
Life itself is a schoolroom that should confirm for us the validity of Gods revelation-that mans’ way doesn’t cut it while Gods way does-but sometimes it takes a good part of a lifetime of experience or hard knocks just to get to the point where we’re receptive to hearing about this other “way”. And then if we hear the Word or, better yet if it already resides in our hearts because we’ve been taught it well at some earlier point in our lives, it can begin to have its effect and true conversion can start to take place.
**
po18guy
Well-known member
Well, we have a commandment to “honor your father and mother” as well as Jesus’ example pf obedience to Saint Joseph and Mary, once they found Hm in the temple. Jesus left the temple, went with them and “was obedient” to them. That is God in Jesus Christ giving obedience to man. How much more will He expect in return?Then, they finally get their kids to Mass after a huge battle, and a priest says, “Don’t drag your children to Mass,” in the hearing of the children, who then rebel against their parents and say, “But Father says we are not to be dragged to Mass against our will. Don’t you have respect for your priests?”
What are the parents supposed to do, in that situation?
Also, Jesus said “Deny yourselves”. How better than to deny yourself and attend mass for the sake of Jesus, and not stay home for yourself. Sometimes, the evil one’s influence can be found even in Church. He dominates elsewhere.
H
HappyRevert
Guest
Here is what I think…
- It is because we had a generation that was “lost” from the late 60’s until fairly recently. It was after Vatican II and we simply weren’t taught what we should have, or perhaps the strong counter-culture of the time confused everyone for a period. We are still reeling from it.
It doesn’t seem like good news, but the true Good News of Christ looks wonderful against this background.
M
mfbukowski
Guest
Show me how I quoted it out of context. That’s what it said. Now you tell me it was never dogma.
Why does that argument work for you, when you do not allow the same argument to work when a Mormon tells you “that was never doctrine”? If it is not in our standard works, it is not doctrine.
I have never said anything about your “faith leaving you flat”
You alleged christians have no charity whatsoever.
A
Ag_not
Guest
Hi, have you read the link I gave you here Read all the way through the article.
It never was church dogma.
Therefor you cannot say the church changed dogma when it never was dogma; if I remember correctly you were citing this as an example of the church changing dogma. I’ve not reread back through the posts you referred to so if I misunderstood my apologies and just ignore me.
I hope you had a wonderful Christmas
P
Pier
Guest
I don’t believe so…
It depends on the soil the seed lands in. Most of the people I know who have left the Church did so as teens. How many people make truly mature choices at that age? (No offense to mature teens - I know they do exist!)
And many have embraced the just-about-anything-goes culture of these times. That goes for Protestants & people of other religions as well, so please don’t think it’s just Catholics, 'cause it’s not. And for many of the people who celebrate just the major holidays, (as was told to me by a non-Christian) - the celebrations are more for social reasons than religious.
It depends on the soil the seed lands in. Most of the people I know who have left the Church did so as teens. How many people make truly mature choices at that age? (No offense to mature teens - I know they do exist!)
And many have embraced the just-about-anything-goes culture of these times. That goes for Protestants & people of other religions as well, so please don’t think it’s just Catholics, 'cause it’s not. And for many of the people who celebrate just the major holidays, (as was told to me by a non-Christian) - the celebrations are more for social reasons than religious.
- Status