Is poor Catechetics the problem?

[jmcrae]

The original reason this subject was brought up in this thread is that Limbo was advanced as an example of a DOCTRINE that had CHANGED. The answer was that it was never a DOCTRINE and so when it was determined that there was no such thing as limbo, Doctrine could not have changed because Limbo was never doctrine.

That’s right, it’s not. It’s a speculation that arose from the dogmatic teaching (de fide) that only the baptized can go to Heaven. It is a heresy to believe that the unbaptized can go to Heaven. However, we may (piously, and not dogmatically) believe that someone we do not see being baptized, may be baptized in some spiritual manner that we are not aware of.

Babies go to heaven according to the most learned and astute priest in my parish. That’s good enough for me, and it is too bad if it isn’t good enough for anyone else. They are FREE TO ASK THEIR OWN PRIEST!!!

My priest tends to be more orthodox - he is very insistent on early baptism.

The sort of Calvinist thinking that if someone doesn’t go to a particular church or whatever, then they are going to Hell is repugnant to me. A merciful God is inconsistent with that sort of thinking. I submit that vanity also plays no small part among those who believe it to be so, and believe they’re the ones, because of their circumstances, who are “saved”.

I have absolutely no idea where this is coming from. Any baptized person (including a Calvinist) - assuming they have no post-baptismal sins - can go to Heaven, and of this we are absolutely assured - you don’t have to “go to a certain church” or whatever - you just have to be baptized.

If any unbaptized person is ever made worthy to be brought to the presence of God, an unbaptized baby is certainly first.

One is “made worthy” by being baptized. We know of three forms of baptism. Actual water baptism, for the living. Baptism of blood, for the martyr catechumens, and baptism of desire, for catechumens who die by accident. Could there be other forms of Baptism? Yes. Can anyone go to Heaven without baptism? No.

This may be a hot button issue with me. It is something I have thought about for nearly 40 years. And my own granddaughter is 7 months old today. She was baptized in October, but had she not been, or had we lost her before then, I cannot believe, and will never accept the notion, that she would have gone to hell. That’s just silly.

It does no good to get emotional, or to take things personally.

 

[PJM]

Ag_not:

Honestly, if they were properly Catechized, you probably will find that many of them would not have been confirmed in the first place.

Why would theynot wish to be part of the ONLY Church actually founded by Jesus Himself? God alway’s give us sufficient grace to handle anything God offers us. Alway’s!

I’m not sure of what people you have in mind? Certainly those born into the Church, may not have been properly formulated. Especailly if they are post Vatican II. Not true of those comming into the Church.

Those choosing to come into the Church however, even in a weaker RCIA program, receive enough information and more than sufficient grace, to be informed of the RCC’s positions on the most basisc issues, the sacraments, the infallibility of the Popes, Marian Dogma’s and the like.

The Satantic issue it seems to me is the regullarly taught, God forbid, but even by some priest and bishops; Fundemental Option, which proclaims that “it’s only wrong if I say that it’s wrong, and I don’t have to accept any rule, law or teaching that I don’t choose to agree with.” That is Satan, NOT God’s teaching!

Because it is so easy to follow, it has caught on like wild fire, and that is exacly where a great many will end up!

That is way the increase in the number of Christian denomonitations has increased many time the three thousand that existed in the yeat 1965.

get very enamored with the whole concept and don’t seem to understand what the implications of certain rules are. Other folks seem to think that it’s all gonna be OK until they come face to face with a certain rule.

I don’t but this theory. God has written on our very hearts, what is right and what is wrong. We can choose “to run” but we really can’t hide from God’s truths!

I think that if people were given the truth, blatantly and up front they would have a better understanding and more information at hand with which to make the decision on.

The Catholic Church has to my knowledge not been hinding “the truth,” what the heck are you talking about?

to me it all seems part of a whole…improper catechism or not, priests take great pride announcing just how many folks got confirmed - maybe there is a statistical thing that the diocese look at per parish…

Were this not such a serious isshe this would be a humerous comment. Can / should a priest (or anyone) take satisfaction in a “job well done?” That is what your talking about, not pride, at least in the super majority of cases.

the molestation thing didn’t help matters either."

For the record the Catholic “molestation thing” mirrored the national stats for all Christian Denomoniations. And INDEED it is a HUGE issue! A Grave sin!

I do think that many people come into Catholicism with blinkers on their face, not fully understanding or realizing what they are in for.

I disagree in the strongest possible way with this line of thought. having been involved in Catholic Education for a dozen years, in two states and two parishes, and being involved with RCIA, some come TO THE CHURCH with lack of understanding and misunderstandinds, BUT that is the very purpose of RCIA, to correct, inform and teach the Catholic Faith.

Then, of course, there are others that understand, question the rules and get told that they have to proceed on blind faith if they want to be catholic.

This too is a fabrication! I don’t have the mind and intellect of God, nor do you, nor does anyone, past, present or future.

God Himself tells us " way’s are not My way’s and your thoughts are not My thoughts."

In the past two thousand years of the RCC, The Church has been blessed by God to have some of the keenest minds in the Universe. And yet today we still can’t explain the Trinity, The Eucharist, The BVM., and other Mysteries, which is why they are called “mysteries,” and why we call the practice of our bleiefs; FAITH! “Thomas, come here and put your hand in My side.” “Blessed are those who have not seen and still believe.”

Oh yea of little faith!

By all means, ask questions. But be spiritual enough, humble enough, wisw enough, to accept the EVIDENCE with which you are presented. READ 2. Tim. 3:16… that’s God talking to you my Christian friend!

Oh, and one thing, "don’t ask IF you really don’t want to know.

May God bless and keep you,

PJM m.c.

 

[MelanieAnne]

That’s right, it’s not. It’s a speculation that arose from the dogmatic teaching (de fide) that only the baptized can go to Heaven. It is a heresy to believe that the unbaptized can go to Heaven. However, we may (piously, and not dogmatically) believe that someone we do not see being baptized, may be baptized in some spiritual manner that we are not aware of.

My priest tends to be more orthodox - he is very insistent on early baptism.

The priest that told me that unbaptized babies go to heaven is orthodox too. Our entire parish practices early baptism, and from what I can see it is a common practice. The idea that babies that die before being baptized will still go to heaven is not inconsistent with the understanding that everyone should be baptized and the sooner the better.

I have absolutely no idea where this is coming from. Any baptized person (including a Calvinist) - assuming they have no post-baptismal sins - can go to Heaven, and of this we are absolutely assured - you don’t have to “go to a certain church” or whatever - you just have to be baptized.

Many protestant denominations preach this sort of thing. It’s nonsense. The idea that unbaptized babies go to hell is similar to that sort of thinking.

One is “made worthy” by being baptized. We know of three forms of baptism. Actual water baptism, for the living. Baptism of blood, for the martyr catechumens, and baptism of desire, for catechumens who die by accident. Could there be other forms of Baptism? Yes. Can anyone go to Heaven without baptism? No.
jmcrae;4602627:

It does no good to get emotional, or to take things personally.

Similarly, it also does no good to reduce everything to an intellectual exercise. I’m not emotional about this, I’m looking at it from a real-world perspective. This is not some dry discourse when it has a practical application.

I think we’re done here.

 

[PJM]

The Period of Catechesis, only, I trust, since they don’t need preparation for Baptism, or for First Confession, Confirmation, or First Holy Communion.

OR, how about a Catechism class that is modelled along the lines of the RCIA Period of Catechesis, that is available to the whole parish, year round? :newidea:

Thanks for the post

Actually I tried in 2006 and again in 2007 with a program that we called 'renew; “Meeting Christ Again.”

In a parish with about 800 families we were not able to get more than one or two people interested.

The format in 2006 was a “you pick the topic” and Q & A.

In 2007 we tried a more structured format. neither caught on. Yet we have two Bible studies that regullarly have 15-20 people in them? Go figure?

I’m working on a Apologetics program, and God willing, will try with that.

God bless you,

PJM m.c.

 

[PJM]

Here’s something all of us can do without adding any new programs ~ volunteer to be a sponsor of an adult who is in RCIA. Our parish is always looking for sponsors and I’m sure there is a regular shortage at other parishes too. This automatically gets you regular catechism classes as well as discussions with your candidate, which in turn will cause you to look more deeply into your faith.

Hi,

Good idea, however in our parish and I suspect some others, we seek out Sponcers who are already informed and fully practcing RC’s, so that they can demonistrate a Catholic life style and answer most if not all of the questions they may be asked.

Thanks for the idea,
God bless PJM m.c.

 

[jmcrae]

Thanks for the post

Actually I tried in 2006 and again in 2007 with a program that we called 'renew; “Meeting Christ Again.”

In a parish with about 800 families we were not able to get more than one or two people interested.

The format in 2006 was a “you pick the topic” and Q & A.

In 2007 we tried a more structured format. neither caught on. Yet we have two Bible studies that regullarly have 15-20 people in them? Go figure?

I’m working on a Apologetics program, and God willing, will try with that.

God bless you,

PJM m.c.

If you already have a Bible study, you probably don’t need anything else. People are extremely busy, nowadays - they find it hard to fit more than one thing in at a time, especially if it’s on the same subject.

It sounds like the Bible study is doing what you need.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Paragraph 1261 of the CCC:

“As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: ‘Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,’ allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.”

Babies go to heaven

 

[mfbukowski]

Ah, no point in trying to use LDS lies and deceit with one who knows about them. When you are done praying for me, look in the mirror and continue praying, won’t you?

“LDS lies and deceit”? Unbelievable. I love you too. As long as people respond to caricatures, there is no hope for dialogue. Keep you tin hat on, so I can’t eat your brain. Oh wait. I can’t get past the horns anyway. Too tough.

 

[MelanieAnne]

“LDS lies and deceit”? Unbelievable. I love you too. As long as people respond to caricatures, there is no hope for dialogue. Keep you tin hat on, so I can’t eat your brain. Oh wait. I can’t get past the horns anyway. Too tough.

Note to those who are concerned about poor Catholic Catechism ~ this is an example of what ensues ~ MFBUKOWSKI is a born Catholic (what would you expect with a name like Bukowski?) who fell for the silliness of Mormonism and now professes the Mormon theology.

If such a person had even been taught the TRUTH about JUST the book of GENESIS they may have been able to reject the silliness of Mormonism. Genesis shows us that the lie that we can be Gods is just that ~ a lie. That lie was told by Satan and every time that lie is told it is still a lie. And always told by Satan. Makes you wonder where the Mormon idea of such things comes from?

But somehow, by some means, our Catholic brother/sister here ~ mfbukowski ~ was seduced into the “dark side” to believe he/she could progress to be a God/Goddess in the Mormon pantheon. We have the example within this own thread! We do not need to look to hypotheticals!

Had mfbukowski learned, understood, or realized, as a Catholic, the futility, the utter insanity, not to mention the human vanity, of the very THOUGHT that anyone could become a God, perhaps he/she would have not become seduced by the intrinsic human vanity that is Mormonism. But he/she has been. He/she has fallen, yet another victim, to the lie that “we” can become GOD. The example of what NOT TO DO is right here before us.

It may be too late for Bukowski (I’ve always wondered if that was a real name or one based on the playwright!) but it is not too late for the rest of us. Reject the vanity-based lies of Satan! And pray for the lapsed Catholic MFBUKOWSKI. The fact that he/she haunts this forum must mean SOMETHING!

 

[TotallyConfused]

Quoted snippets:

• I don’t but this theory.
• Were this not such a serious isshe this would be a humerous comment.
• I disagree in the strongest possible way with this line of thought.
• This too is a fabrication!
• Oh yea of little faith!

PJM, you can disagree all you like, and accuse me of fabricating things, but what I wrote here are my own experiences with the Church, so please take care of what you post, especially as an initial response.

 

[PJM]

Quoted snippets:

PJM, you can disagree all you like, and accuse me of fabricating things, but what I wrote here are my own experiences with the Church, so please take care of what you post, especially as an initial response.

Thanks for the responce:thumbsup:

May God bless you and keep you, may He grant you a long, happy and healthy life

PJM m.c.

 

[jmcrae]

Paragraph 1261 of the CCC:

“As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: ‘Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,’ allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.”

Babies go to heaven

No - we simply do not know. We entrust them to the mercy of God and call all the more urgently for parents to bring their children for baptism as early as possible.

If we were confident that everyone goes to Heaven, we would not call all the more urgently for early baptism.

We know that God is most merciful, but we also know that none of us, on our own and without Jesus, has the right to go to Heaven. You are aware, I’m sure, that nobody ever went to Heaven before Jesus was raised from the dead, and yet, God was called “merciful,” even then.

 

[MelanieAnne]

No - we simply do not know. We entrust them to the mercy of God and call all the more urgently for parents to bring their children for baptism as early as possible.

If we were confident that everyone goes to Heaven, we would not call all the more urgently for early baptism.

We know that God is most merciful, but we also know that none of us, on our own and without Jesus, has the right to go to Heaven. You are aware, I’m sure, that nobody ever went to Heaven before Jesus was raised from the dead, and yet, God was called “merciful,” even then.

So you’re going to argue against the Catechism of the Church? Because that is what I was quoting.

We really ARE DONE! I can only assume that you don’t “get it”. But then I am looking at this question as a real-world practical one, not an intellectual exercise. This ISN’T ABOUT delaying baptism!!!

ASK YOUR PRIEST what happens to babies who die without having received the sacrament of baptism. I challenge you to do that and the return and report the result!

 

[jmcrae]

So you’re going to argue against the Catechism of the Church? Because that is what I was quoting.

I wasn’t arguing with your quotation. I was agreeing with it. “We trust in the mercy of God” is from your quotation - so is the urgent call to early baptism.

You’re the one who is interpreting “All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism,” as meaning that all unbaptized babies go to Heaven - but I’m just not seeing it.

We really ARE DONE! I can only assume that you don’t “get it”.

I “get it” just fine. The proper answer is, “We don’t actually know.”

 

[MelanieAnne]

I wasn’t arguing with your quotation. I was agreeing with it. “We trust in the mercy of God” is from your quotation - so is the urgent call to early baptism.

You’re the one who is interpreting “All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism,” as meaning that all unbaptized babies go to Heaven - but I’m just not seeing it.

I “get it” just fine. The proper answer is, “We don’t actually know.”

What you “don’t get” is there is no inconsistency between a call for early baptism and the idea that unbaptized babies go to heaven. I guess you don’t have an unbaptized child or grandchild. I don’t either. But when it’s real, and not an intellectual exercise, the situation changes.

Fr. Rod said babies that die before they are baptized go to heaven. I’ll put his 60+ years in the priesthood up against your credentials for pontificating, or anyone else’s, any day.

 

[jmcrae]

What you “don’t get” is there is no inconsistency between a call for early baptism and the idea that unbaptized babies go to heaven. I guess you don’t have an unbaptized child or grandchild.

Actually, I do - I lost a daughter to still-birth, and it was not possible to baptize her before her death. I don’t pray to her, because I don’t know where she went. I hope she went to Heaven, and I do know that if she went to Hell, she is not being punished with agonies for personal sins, since she has no personal sins - so, where ever she is, she is resting quietly - but I have nothing firm to base my hope that she is in Heaven on - after all, I hoped she would be born alive, too - and hard experience shows that hoping is not the same thing as reality.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Actually, I do - I lost a daughter to still-birth, and it was not possible to baptize her before her death. I don’t pray to her, because I don’t know where she went. I hope she went to Heaven, and I do know that if she went to Hell, she is not being punished with agonies for personal sins, since she has no personal sins - but I have nothing firm to base my hope that she is in Heaven on - after all, I hoped she would be born alive, too - and hard experience shows that hoping is not the same thing as reality.

I’m sorry that you had to experience that. Since she was not born alive, perhaps none of this discussion applies to her and she is with God where she belongs.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m sorry that you had to experience that. Since she was not born alive, perhaps none of this discussion applies to her and she is with God where she belongs.

I have no idea what this means. Of course it applies to her. She was conceived into the sin of Adam, just like everyone else except for Mother Mary and Jesus.

And of course she is with God, and where she belongs, whether in Heaven or in Hell. God is also in Hell, you know - He is everywhere.

 

[MelanieAnne]

I have no idea what this means. Of course it applies to her. She was conceived into the sin of Adam, just like everyone else except for Mother Mary and Jesus.

And of course she is with God, and where she belongs, whether in Heaven or in Hell. God is also in Hell, you know - He is everywhere.

I’m not going to argue with you anymore.

 

[mfbukowski]

Sadly, I have heard much the same from other members of the LDS. They, who reject the eternity of Christ, the eternal divinity of Christ, are not Christian, never mind their protestations to the contrary. They are permitted to use lies and deception in the furtherance of the LDS organization. This is a foundation of sand.

This is like saying catholics murder babies. Totally untrue on both counts. I don’t know how you can say such things.