Is Pope Francis reaching out to the prodigals and are some of us feeling like the older brother?

[Jon_S_1]

I hope I don’t come off as to whimsical. I just feel like I understand and agree with a SLIGHT , and I believe it is slight, change of focus.

Check this out Randy.

Cardinal Dolan and Fr Barron on Pope Francis (post interview article)

youtu.be/1BP8mQnwX_8

 

[clem456]

I hope I don’t come off as to whimsical. I just feel like I understand and agree with a SLIGHT , and I believe it is slight, change of focus.

Check this out Randy.

Cardinal Dolan and Fr Barron on Pope Francis (post interview article)

youtu.be/1BP8mQnwX_8

This is a great interview.
Abp Dolan, Fr Barron, neither one of them confused!!
Dolan’s closing comment:
“Where does the real change come from? The human heart.”

 

[McCall1981]

This is a great interview.
Abp Dolan, Fr Barron, neither one of them confused!!

I’m not able to watch this. Is there any way you could give us a summary of what they said?

 

[Jon_S_1]

I’m not able to watch this. Is there any way you could give us a summary of what they said?

Is there a way you can search YouTube for " Barron Dolan Francis".

It’s really worth watching but ultimately they are saying that this is Francis continuing to speak as Jesus did. Emphasizing conversion of heart as the primary message.

They affirmed church teaching has not and will not change.

They said it’s not the church obsessed with genital issues it’s the culture. It’s the news always focusing on that. How many articles do they write about God?

It’s a good interview.

 

[3DOCTORS]

Check out my siggy pic below. Now read the title of this thread. Thank you.

Sincerely,

3DOCTORS, OP of this thread.

 

[McCall1981]

Is there a way you can search YouTube for " Barron Dolan Francis".

It’s really worth watching but ultimately they are saying that this is Francis continuing to speak as Jesus did. Emphasizing conversion of heart as the primary message.

They affirmed church teaching has not and will not change.

They said it’s not the church obsessed with genital issues it’s the culture. It’s the news always focusing on that. How many articles do they write about God?

It’s a good interview.

Thanks!

 

[Jon_S_1]

Oh and one if the things I really liked was they said that Francis is "the world’s parish priest ". He is very pastoral.

I really liked that comparison.

 

[graciew]

And the Father of the Prodigal son must have had that broad smile and that welcoming attitude…Everything feels so ok when there is such peace…
That video was worth every second.Thanks,Jon

 

[McCall1981]

Is there a way you can search YouTube for " Barron Dolan Francis".

It’s really worth watching but ultimately they are saying that this is Francis continuing to speak as Jesus did. Emphasizing conversion of heart as the primary message.

They affirmed church teaching has not and will not change.

They said it’s not the church obsessed with genital issues it’s the culture. It’s the news always focusing on that. How many articles do they write about God?

It’s a good interview.

I watched it, thanks, it was a good interview. I wish Francis was that clear about things. I liked what Card. Dolan had to say, but he still had to explain Francis, and I wish he didn’t have to do that.

 

[sw85]

Before I begin this little piece for reflection, I just want to say that our Moderators have already made it clear that we shouldn’t presume to judge the Pope:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=764882

I wouldn’t be surprised if some recent threads got shut down . . . but that’s not for me to decide, 'nuff said. Now for my “pearls of wisdom,” for whatever they’re worth. :twocents:

I’m a morally “conservative” cradle Catholic. I have the reaction too sometimes - "The Pope said what?!" Although I’m learning to 1) fall back on the good catechesis I received as a child and continued from that time to the present, and 2) go to sources that are Catholic, not secular, for any further clarification I desire.

But here’s the thing - sometimes I have this fear. And if I look at it closely, I see myself, being a very good imitation of the older brother in the parable of the Prodigal Son. Sometimes I fear the rules won’t be enforced enough, won’t be enforced for someone else, etc. - when I have followed them all my life (mostly) and fought for them and helped explain them to people and all these efforts I’ve made.

And it is my realization, perhaps our Holy Father is like that father in the story Jesus told. He’s out there on the road, looking for ways to reach those prodigal sons and daughters. Am I going to feel all put out and envious and afraid? Or am I going to join in the celebration?

It’s a spiritual test for me. Maybe it is for a lot of us. In my heart of hearts, I don’t think we need to be so fearful. Easier said than done, maybe, but doable. :curtsey:

Well, the father ran to embrace the prodigal son when he was returning and the problem here as it is sensed by many is that Francis is making all the wrong kinds of people happy, the kinds of people who hate and persecute the Church and do not and likely never will believe in the Gospel, and moreover that he is doing it at the expense of Catholics who have sometimes committed their lives and even put their careers on the line and exposed themselves to the mockery of the public and their peers and the elites, e.g., by defending traditional marriage and working to abolish abortion.

In other words there is often the sense, for Catholics on the ground who are involved in the ordinary and grueling and sometimes very difficult work of witnessing to Christ in the world, evangelizing our irreligious friends or family members, praying and protesting at abortion clinics, etc., that Francis is tossing them under the bus from the convenience and remoteness of Rome in order to win the accolades of worldly elites who hate them. They, in other words, feel sold out. I’m not endorsing this narrative, I don’t think it’s entirely accurate, but I have heard and seen it enough that I know it for what it is; it is the bitterness of a person who feels betrayed by the people he’s supposed to be able to trust. You can see it, e.g., here.

 

[Brendan_64]

Well, the father ran to embrace the prodigal son when he was returning and the problem here as it is sensed by many is that Francis is making all the wrong kinds of people happy, the kinds of people who hate and persecute the Church and do not and likely never will believe in the Gospel, and moreover that he is doing it at the expense of Catholics who have sometimes committed their lives and even put their careers on the line and exposed themselves to the mockery of the public and their peers and the elites, e.g., by defending traditional marriage and working to abolish abortion.

How on Earth has he done this? All the Pope has done is reiterate Catholic teaching as outlined in the current Catechism. He is reaching out his arms and welcoming the stranger. He has said nothing, nothing at all, that is not in line with Catholic teaching. His remarks on welcoming and supporting homosexuals is as is clearly stated in the catechism. His remarks on the possibility that atheists could be saved, is straight from the Catechism. These may be parts of the Catechism that some Catholics prefer to gloss over (viewing them as a bit too ‘liberal’) or preferring to take them not at face value, but by adding qualification, but they are as much the teaching of our Church as any other teaching is. If people take issue with these teachings then it is they who have the problem.

In other words there is often the sense, for Catholics on the ground who are involved in the ordinary and grueling and sometimes very difficult work of witnessing to Christ in the world, evangelizing our irreligious friends or family members, praying and protesting at abortion clinics, etc., that Francis is tossing them under the bus from the convenience and remoteness of Rome in order to win the accolades of worldly elites who hate them.

This view is nonsense. The Pope has not said anything deriding abortion activists etc. All he has said is that there is more to our faith than abortion, contraception etc. He is absolutely right. These are very important issues, but they are not the only things we ought to be concerning ourselves with. The Gospel is not based solely, or primarily around these issues.

They, in other words, feel sold out. I’m not endorsing this narrative, I don’t think it’s entirely accurate, but I have heard and seen it enough that I know it for what it is; it is the bitterness of a person who feels betrayed by the people he’s supposed to be able to trust…

Then that really is their own issue. Bitterness, resentment etc. are not Christian qualities, and if certain Catholics feel bitterness or resentment towards the Holy Father, then I would suggest that they do have a problem and the problem lies within them.

The Holy Father is opening up his arms and welcoming all, not digging trenches and preparing to go to war with the world outside our Church.

 

[Jon_S_1]

How on Earth has he done this? All the Pope has done is reiterate Catholic teaching as outlined in the current Catechism. He is reaching out his arms and welcoming the stranger. He has said nothing, nothing at all, that is not in line with Catholic teaching. His remarks on welcoming and supporting homosexuals is as is clearly stated in the catechism. His remarks on the possibility that atheists could be saved, is straight from the Catechism. These may be parts of the Catechism that some Catholics prefer to gloss over (viewing them as a bit too ‘liberal’) or preferring to take them not at face value, but by adding qualification, but they are as much the teaching of our Church as any other teaching is. If people take issue with these teachings then it is they who have the problem.

This view is nonsense. The Pope has not said anything deriding abortion activists etc. All he has said is that there is more to our faith than abortion, contraception etc. He is absolutely right. These are very important issues, but they are not the only things we ought to be concerning ourselves with. The Gospel is not based solely, or primarily around these issues.

Then that really is their own issue. Bitterness, resentment etc. are not Christian qualities, and if certain Catholics feel bitterness or resentment towards the Holy Father, then I would suggest that they do have a problem and the problem lies within them.

The Holy Father is opening up his arms and welcoming all, not digging trenches and preparing to go to war with the world outside our Church.

 

[sw85]

How on Earth has he done this? All the Pope has done is reiterate Catholic teaching as outlined in the current Catechism. He is reaching out his arms and welcoming the stranger. He has said nothing, nothing at all, that is not in line with Catholic teaching. His remarks on welcoming and supporting homosexuals is as is clearly stated in the catechism. His remarks on the possibility that atheists could be saved, is straight from the Catechism. These may be parts of the Catechism that some Catholics prefer to gloss over (viewing them as a bit too ‘liberal’) or preferring to take them not at face value, but by adding qualification, but they are as much the teaching of our Church as any other teaching is. If people take issue with these teachings then it is they who have the problem.

Yes, I get all that.

This view is nonsense. The Pope has not said anything deriding abortion activists etc. All he has said is that there is more to our faith than abortion, contraception etc. He is absolutely right. These are very important issues, but they are not the only things we ought to be concerning ourselves with. The Gospel is not based solely, or primarily around these issues.

Yes, I get all that too. But surely we can see how remarks about “small-minded rules” would be taken by people who have dedicated their lives to defending those rules and more importantly the truths which those rules reflect, how calling prayer warriors “Pelagians” after they offered him the kindness of a spiritual bouquet would be taken, etc. Fairly or not this is how they are being taken, and hey, maybe it is not reasonable to expect every single Catholic the world over (even those of modest intellect and sophistication and limited means and little time) to spend an hour on Google tracking down transcripts of every single off-the-cuff Papal remark and carefully analyzing the context, etc. etc.

The OP suggested that the people who feel alienated by Francis feel alienated because of (essentially) pride, the pride of an older brother who feels entitled to the preferential love of his father over the returning prodigal son – I am simply saying, no, it is not the “prodigal son” whom Francis is supposedly appealing to but the enemies of the Church and the faithful, the media, the gay mafia, the abortion lobby, etc., and they are not walking to our house with hat in hand and torn vestments but with fire and sword. It is not pride that motivates them, it is a feeling of confusion and betrayal, and maybe that feeling is right and maybe it’s wrong but my point is that Francis isn’t the only one entitled to charity on Internet message boards.

Then that really is their own issue. Bitterness, resentment etc. are not Christian qualities, and if certain Catholics feel bitterness or resentment towards the Holy Father, then I would suggest that they do have a problem and the problem lies within them.

Bitterness etc. are feelings, they are emotions, and there is no such thing as a “Catholic” or “non-Catholic” emotion. Emotions are just what people feel, they are physiological reactions, there is no moral valence attached to them but to the actions which they generate, which are not at issue here.

I wonder, too, why people who feel wounded and alienated by Francis’ words, however wrongly, can go to hell for all we care but why homosexuals who feel wounded and alienated by the Catechism, also however wrongly, must be coddled and murmured to at length. Again, there is an increasing sense among many, and I have occasionally experienced this myself, that you’re only entitled to “pastoral treatment” if you’re a lesbian or a Lutheran or a powerful Congresswoman, otherwise if you’re just a rosary crusader or a pro-life activist who opens clinics or actually talks to atheists on a semi-regular basis or would like Father to maybe consider offering one traditional Latin low Mass a month, then the message from clerics and keyboard warriors alike is “shut up and get with the program” and that can be a very bitter pill to swallow, however obligatory the swallowing may be.

 

[McCall1981]

Yes, I get all that.

Yes, I get all that too. But surely we can see how remarks about “small-minded rules” would be taken by people who have dedicated their lives to defending those rules and more importantly the truths which those rules reflect, how calling prayer warriors “Pelagians” after they offered him the kindness of a spiritual bouquet would be taken, etc. Fairly or not this is how they are being taken, and hey, maybe it is not reasonable to expect every single Catholic the world over (even those of modest intellect and sophistication and limited means and little time) to spend an hour on Google tracking down transcripts of every single off-the-cuff Papal remark and carefully analyzing the context, etc. etc.

The OP suggested that the people who feel alienated by Francis feel alienated because of (essentially) pride, the pride of an older brother who feels entitled to the preferential love of his father over the returning prodigal son – I am simply saying, no, it is not the “prodigal son” whom Francis is supposedly appealing to but the enemies of the Church and the faithful, the media, the gay mafia, the abortion lobby, etc., and they are not walking to our house with hat in hand and torn vestments but with fire and sword. It is not pride that motivates them, it is a feeling of confusion and betrayal, and maybe that feeling is right and maybe it’s wrong but my point is that Francis isn’t the only one entitled to charity on Internet message boards.

Bitterness etc. are feelings, they are emotions, and there is no such thing as a “Catholic” or “non-Catholic” emotion. Emotions are just what people feel, they are physiological reactions, there is no moral valence attached to them but to the actions which they generate, which are not at issue here.

I wonder, too, why people who feel wounded and alienated by Francis’ words, however wrongly, can go to hell for all we care but why homosexuals who feel wounded and alienated by the Catechism, also however wrongly, must be coddled and murmured to at length. Again, there is an increasing sense among many, and I have occasionally experienced this myself, that you’re only entitled to “pastoral treatment” if you’re a lesbian or a Lutheran or a powerful Congresswoman, otherwise if you’re just a rosary crusader or a pro-life activist who opens clinics or actually talks to atheists on a semi-regular basis or would like Father to maybe consider offering one traditional Latin low Mass a month, then the message from clerics and keyboard warriors alike is “shut up and get with the program” and that can be a very bitter pill to swallow, however obligatory the swallowing may be.

I think this post nails it.

Some people are feeling alienated, and this feeling is not because of how “others” are being treated, but by how they themselves are being treated.

To use the Prodigal son analogy again, the father tells the older brother not to be jealous and mentions that he (the father) has given the older son all of his love as well.

It’s not that the people complaining don’t want the prodigal to be loved, it’s that they want the prodigal and the older brother to both be loved, as it is in the parable. I think some, myslf included feel like the prodigal is being loved instead of the older brother, but it shouldn’t be a pick one or the other, both can and should be loved together.

 

[Brendan_64]

Bitterness etc. are feelings, they are emotions, and there is no such thing as a “Catholic” or “non-Catholic” emotion. Emotions are just what people feel, they are physiological reactions, there is no moral valence attached to them but to the actions which they generate, which are not at issue here.

So St Paul got it wrong in Phillipians (I think somewhere in chapter 4) where he advises the Phillipians to fill their minds with only pure thoughts. Anger, bitterness, resentment, etc. manifest themselves in thoughts (and actions).

And these are not just emotions, they have clearly manifested themselves as thoughts, words, and keystrokes, otherwise we would not be aware that people are feeling this way. These are not just mere physiological reactions, these feelings are being manifested in the thoughts, words and deeds of certain Catholics.

You reckon Paul would have advised the Phillipians that it would be OK for them to have in their minds, thoughts of resentment towards Peter? You reckon he would have been OK if the early Christians verbalised these thoughts through words and actions? You reckon he would have been OK for the early Christians to write such things down and publish them for millions of people to see (which is what is happening online)?

 

[Elizabeth502]

no, it is not the “prodigal son” whom Francis is supposedly appealing to but the enemies of the Church and the faithful, the media, the gay mafia, the abortion lobby, etc., and they are not walking to our house with hat in hand and torn vestments but with fire and sword. …Francis isn’t the only one entitled to charity on Internet message boards.

Bitterness etc. are feelings, they are emotions, and there is no such thing as a “Catholic” or “non-Catholic” emotion.

Absolutely. Nevertheless, there seems to be the constant campaign to “control” the feelings of Catholics. Name the object: the current Pope, the form of the Mass, whatever. Take your pick. We are “required” to march in emotional lock-step with what is popular, not necessarily what is true for us, personally. (So much for the ‘diversity’ of the modern Church. Nah. Let’s hear it for forced conformity )

there is an increasing sense among many, and I have occasionally experienced this myself, that you’re only entitled to “pastoral treatment” if you’re a lesbian or a Lutheran or a powerful Congresswoman, otherwise if you’re just a rosary crusader or a pro-life activist who opens clinics or actually talks to atheists on a semi-regular basis or would like Father to maybe consider offering one traditional Latin low Mass a month, then the message from clerics and keyboard warriors alike is “shut up and get with the program”.

 

[SomeoneWhoNeeds]

This isn’t a reply to your question. But I needed help. There was a new kid in school, let’s just say his name is Preston. I’ve become a really good friend with home. I asked him if he wanted to hang out BTW We’re in the 7th grade. But he said he couldn’t. I kept asking him and then suddenly today he asked “Are there any Jehova witness’s?” I said I don’t think so because I knew about them I just didn’t know what they were. I asked him what he was talking about and he said I’m a jehova witness. I said okay that’s fine because I still didn’t know what it was. I finally asked if he wanted I come home with me and he said he couldn’t. I asked him why and he said he couldn’t hang out with me if I wasn’t a jehova witness. I coaxed out some more info and learned some more. I want to stay Freinds but he said he moved because a friend went home with him. Is there any way to convince his parents to hang out with me or is it gonna only have to be a school and Friday night football thing?

 

[Jon_S_1]

I think this post nails it.

Some people are feeling alienated, and this feeling is not because of how “others” are being treated, but by how they themselves are being treated.

To use the Prodigal son analogy again, the father tells the older brother not to be jealous and mentions that he (the father) has given the older son all of his love as well.

It’s not that the people complaining don’t want the prodigal to be loved, it’s that they want the prodigal and the older brother to both be loved, as it is in the parable. I think some, myslf included feel like the prodigal is being loved instead of the older brother, but it shouldn’t be a pick one or the other, both can and should be loved together.

Can you give a real concrete example of how pope Francis has not shown the “older brothers love”

It seems this is all projections and insecurities based on not much evidence.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Absolutely. Nevertheless, there seems to be the constant campaign to “control” the feelings of Catholics. Name the object: the current Pope, the form of the Mass, whatever. Take your pick. We are “required” to march in emotional lock-step with what is popular, not necessarily what is true for us, personally. (So much for the ‘diversity’ of the modern Church. Nah. Let’s hear it for forced conformity )

Luke 5 (Paranthesis mine)

29 Then Levi held a great banquet for Jesus at his house, and a large crowd of tax collectors (gays) and others (pro aborters) were eating with them. 30 But the Pharisees (pious Catholics) and the teachers (Message Board Commentators) of the law who belonged to their sect (The Western World) complained to his disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?”

31 Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

Until you guys realize that proclaiming God’s truth is not about you it’s about calling to repentance.

It’s not about jamming pro life and pro family agendas at them

It’s about SHOWING them who Christ is

It is about making disciples.

It is about sitting at the table or in the pews with them so the foundation of faith can be taught and discussed so they know why we teach what we do.

The fight will continue on these issues. The pope has confirmed that again and again.

Did he suddenly cut off funding for these programs ???

No

The fight will continue. But if our only focus is winning this battle. We will lose the war

 

[clem456]

Well, the father ran to embrace the prodigal son when he was returning

“**But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him **and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son…"

Francis is asking us to emulate this father by loving those far off (that’s everyone of us by the way… )
The father (God) is always with the son and loves him fully, regardless of the son’s rejection of him. Compassion means “to suffer with”. The father’s heart is infinitely large enough to be with the son in his sinful state and love the son always, wherever he is. The father doesn’t love him because he repents, **he loves him because that’s his being. It’s the substance of who he is. **The son does not merit the father’s love because he repents. The father simply loves him because that is who he is and what he does. Why is this so hard for us to accept? Is there not enough of the all-loving God to go around???

and the problem here as it is sensed by many is that Francis is making all the wrong kinds of people happy, the kinds of people who hate and persecute the Church and do not and likely never will believe in the Gospel, and moreover that he is doing it at the expense of Catholics who have sometimes committed their lives and even put their careers on the line and exposed themselves to the mockery of the public and their peers and the elites, e.g., by defending traditional marriage and working to abolish abortion.

In other words there is often the sense, for Catholics on the ground who are involved in the ordinary and grueling and sometimes very difficult work of witnessing to Christ in the world, evangelizing our irreligious friends or family members, praying and protesting at abortion clinics, etc., that Francis is tossing them under the bus from the convenience and remoteness of Rome in order to win the accolades of worldly elites who hate them. They, in other words, feel sold out. I’m not endorsing this narrative, I don’t think it’s entirely accurate, but I have heard and seen it enough that I know it for what it is; it is the bitterness of a person who feels betrayed by the people he’s supposed to be able to trust. You can see it, e.g., here.