Is psychiatry a science?

[meltzerboy]

I think this is true about treating/managing any kind of chronic condition like diabetes or high blood pressure. It is learning different life skills and maintaining balance. A psychiatrist can’t do that for anyone.

Christine, have you ever considered that other people may have had a different experience than you have, and that maybe it is not all negative? Maybe you feel like psychiatry has not helped you, but suppose other people have been helped?

You seem to have a judgmental attitude about it.

It is regulated by the food and drug administration. It must be a drug! Anyway, it is recommended by psychiatrists for seasonal affective depression.

This is a good point, A. It really is as much art as science.

Certainly without their informed consent. People need to volunteer for medication trials. Some do it because they are desperate to feel better and will try anything. Some like the stipends that come with trials. There are also many medical services provided in studes that are free to participants.

No, I just reject the modern definition of psychology. The textbook I use at the community college defines psychology as “measurable and observable behavior”. I think this is a travesty in reference to the human soul, most of which is NOT observable or measurable. For one thing, it cannot include anything spiritual, because it does not meet the criteria. A true science studies all of a phenomena, not limiting study to what is convenient. This definition comes from taking the soul out of psychology.

That definition of psychology as “measurable and observable behavior” is fitting for the school of behaviorism but not for the modern cognitive school. Modern psychology focuses on four processes, which I call ABCD: affect (emotion), behavior, cognition (thinking, knowing), and drive (motivation). All modern psychologists study these four processes; however, different branches of psychology (ABCDPS: abnormal, biological, cognitive, developmental, personality, social) focus on different aspects of the four basic processes.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

No, I just reject the modern definition of psychology. The textbook I use at the community college defines psychology as “measurable and observable behavior”. I think this is a travesty in reference to the human soul, most of which is NOT observable or measurable. For one thing, it cannot include anything spiritual, because it does not meet the criteria. A true science studies all of a phenomena, not limiting study to what is convenient. This definition comes from taking the soul out of psychology.

O well, you seem to make up all your answers anyway!

 

[guanophore]

O well, you seem to make up all your answers anyway!

No, I wish I could claim to be such a scholar, but I am not. I learned by participating and studying psychology, psychiatry, and therapy.

I have an interest in depth psychology, which is the psychology of the unconscious. This is what is ignored by most Western behaviorism. It is also rejected by all managed care providers, who will not reimburse any treatment that does not meet their narrow definitions.

Science or not, anecdotally I’ve known people diagnosed with mental illnesses and prescribed medication for it. I’ve seen enough of its “effects”. Personally I would never want anything to do with psychiatrists.

There are some serious and unwanted side effects to some of them. But, as a person who has benefitted from psychotropic medications several times in my life I am for better living through chemistry.

 

[guanophore]

My main issue with psychiatry is the tendency to define illnesses in terms of their symptoms.  Take ADHD, for example.  The disorder is purportedly a brain issue, yet it's defined as a set of behaviors; incidentally, the very set of behaviors that are observed when diagnosing it.  So to say that someone has Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder literally amounts to saying that they are hyperactive and have a low attention span.  This is a bit like explaining the unexpected death of an infant by saying they were a victim of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome.

I see your point and don’t disagree. The problem is that we still know so little about the brain and how to treat it when it is not funtioning right. There are so many complex aspects. It is not like treating a pancreas that does not produce enough insulin because there could be 15 different factors or areas of the brain involved.

Many illnesses are initially diagnosed by symptoms only until a cause can be determined. People who come into the ER with conditions will get a preliminary diagnosis and their symptoms treated until more diagnostics can be done. Sometimes treating symptoms is all we can do - the common cold is an example.

Could you imagine if the rest of modern medicine adopted this approach? No sir, you don’t have the cold, you have Sore Throat, Cough, and Runny Nose Disease.

LOL In fact, this is what often happens in primary care clinics. My friend kept complaining about headaches and balance problems and it took 3 months to get a brain scan to find the tumor.

Unfortunately the flu presents with the same symptoms, so good luck distinguishing the flu from the cold. Ultimately you have to define a disease by its causes, not its symptoms.

This is ideal, of course, but not always possible. A rash is a good example. It can be treated without knowing it’s cause. Treatment will be more effective if we do, but we can’t always know.

I think ADHD is the Procrustean bed. In fact, I think a lot of what we see in children are actually trauma symptoms that look a lot like “adhd”.

I also think (and I believe this point was made further up the thread) that we have lost the habit of treating our children like children, and our school systems expect unrealistic things from them so they get restless. Forbidding recess, for example, for a child who squirms too much is counterproductive.

Whenever there are funding cuts, the first things to go are expressive things like art, music and physical activities. These are important elements for the soul, and when they are removed, the soul suffers.

The issue I would see with ADHD is not so much that it is defined by symptoms rather than lab tests, but it’s place in society…

A society with its values all mixed up is what I see; psychiatry is simply part of it. Old man ranting.

Yes, but a righteous rant!

 

[jaimelopez]

You said ‘always’. All it requires is one person for whom psychiatry got it right and you’re proven wrong.

My testimony is written above. Psychiatry got it right for me. Hence, you’re wrong.

I’m curious about how consistent you are. Do you have a problem with all doctors making a profit, or just psychiatrists?

What’s your point? there are some transgenders who might say to you that they’re happy and they will say to you the transgender transition got it right for them.
second I think people who support Psychiatry are ignoring importan questions: Is yes or not mental illness caused by chemical unbalance?
How do you know I have a bipolar disorder? there aren’t blood tests that show anything.
you have problems if you support Psychiatry and you don’t have any answer for those questions:ehh::ehh:

 

[Aloysium]

. . . I think people who support Psychiatry are ignoring importan questions: Is yes or not mental illness caused by chemical unbalance?
How do you know I have a bipolar disorder? there aren’t blood tests that show anything.
you have problems if you support Psychiatry and you don’t have any answer for those questions:ehh::ehh:

I got some answers.

Chemical imbalance is a term that is used because it simply gets the point across that physical factors are involved, it suggests the use of medication and imbalanced is how the person feels or appears to others.

Mental illness may be related to structural changes in the brain. In dementia for example. Also an article on BBC news recently reported a study which showed the people who suffer from hallucinations of any kind have an area of the brain that is very much smaller than people who do not experience hallucinations.

If you take drugs, in the short term and long term you will develop symptoms that are seen in mental illness. It is known that they affect the chemical communications between neurons. This clearly shows that changes in how the brain function will affect a person’s perceptions, thinking, emotions and behaviour.

There isn’t a blood test for biplor disorder I would imagine for the same reason there’s no blood test for glaucoma or retinal detachment.

If you have been told you have bipolar disorder you should have a psychiatrist you trust and can talk to. My understanding is that it is of varying severity, but is chronic and most often necessitates the use of medication. It can really mess up a person’s life. Look at ,Robin Williams. On the other hand, he was able to accomplish so much in spite of it.

 

[jaimelopez]

Yes, a great deal. I have also seen people diagnosed with it that really have something else (misdiagnosed)

You might want to consider studying this on your own,Jaime. Diagnoses in psychiatry are not subjective. Patients must meet diagnostic criteria for each condition.

You mean prove that you are uneducated and prejudiced? I don’t see how I could.

There are many testimonies on this thread of people who have been helped by psychiatry. If you cannot accept their word, it is not likely any “proof” of mine would make a difference. You either have an open mind, or not.

Thanks for your posts Sheila you are an inspiration.

On of the ways to identify bigotry/prejudice is when a person is unable to take into account the experience and testimony of others. Letting in that information would force one to shift one’s attitude, so it must be discounted somehow.

guanophore psychiatry Diagnoses ARE subjective, why? because there are NOT blood tests, insuline tests and so on. they even don’t know illness causes, Am I the uneducated and prejudiced? Don’t make me laught:dts:

 

[guanophore]

What's your point?

That it is not accurate to make “always/never” statements like yours. There are some people who have been helped by psychiatry, there are some that have not.

there are some transgenders who might say to you that  they're happy and they will say to you the transgender transition got it right for them.

Yes, I believe that it is true. But they have to see a psychiatrist before they can have the surgery.

second I think people who support Psychiatry are ignoring importan questions: Is yes or not mental illness caused by chemical unbalance?

I am not sure what you mean by “support psychiatry”. Is that like “support environmental chemists”? Support them how? By using their services?

Research has demonstrated that mental illnesses are caused by, influenced by, and are factors in causing chemical imbalance. The brain is an electrochemical organ. It functions with electricity and chemicals. When the electricity, circulation, chemicals etc. are not balanced it has problems.

Not all mental illness is a result of a malfunctioning brain, or the problem in the brain is only part of the problem.

How do you know I have a bipolar disorder? there aren’t blood tests that show anything.

No one here on CAF can know this, since we don’t know you at all. If you were diagnosed with BPD then it may be that some professional determined that you met the diagnostic criteria. It could also be that you were misdiagnosed, and you may have a mental illness but it is not BPD.

So far there are no blood tests, the diagnosis is made on a variety of other factors.

A better question would be, why does it matter if you were diagnosed this way? It is just a label created by a group of professionals to describe a set of symptoms. Why would it bother you what they think? This label did not even exist until recently, or the set of symptoms that describe it. It is a rather recent innovation in the field of psychiatry.

you have problems if you support Psychiatry and you don’t have any answer for those questions:ehh::ehh:

I am not sure what it means to “support psychiatry”. I am not making any donations.

It seems that you need some answers to personal questions. I hope you find them.

 

[guanophore]

guanophore psychiatry Diagnoses ARE subjective, why? because there are NOT blood tests, insuline tests and so on.

There are many ways to diagnose illnesses besides blood tests. Oriental doctors feel the pulses and look at the tongue, smell the breath, and sometimes taste urine (ick!). These methods have been used successfully for millenia before Western medicine.

I say it is objective because the patient must meet certain specific, measurable, observable criteria.

they even don’t know illness causes

Not yet. There are studies in progress looking at genetics as well as other factors. But quite honestly, I don’t know if one will ever be determined. What we can do is treat what we can see (symptoms) and sometimes this is done with medication, vitamins, minerals, and behavior therapies.

, Am I the uneducated and prejudiced? Don’t make me laught:dts:

You seem very angry, Jaime. Some people with mental illnesses have trouble with anger. Some are angry because they are ill. Some are angry because psychiatry cannot make them well. One thing I can tell you that is 100% true:

“This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; 20for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God.” James 1:20

Harboring anger and resentment makes the human soul sick, whether one has a mental illness or not. The way to get rid of it is forgiveness. One must forgive all those one feels harmed by . In your case, this might include the profession of psychiatry. Another way out of this illness is to pray for them.

"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.…Matt. 5:44

Bless them, love them, and pray for them. Then you will be healed from anger and resentment.

 

[jaimelopez]

I got some answers.

Chemical imbalance is a term that is used because it simply gets the point across that physical factors are involved, it suggests the use of medication and imbalanced is how the person feels or appears to others.

Mental illness may be related to structural changes in the brain. In dementia for example. Also an article on BBC news recently reported a study which showed the people who suffer from hallucinations of any kind have an area of the brain that is very much smaller than people who do not experience hallucinations.

If you take drugs, in the short term and long term you will develop symptoms that are seen in mental illness. It is known that they affect the chemical communications between neurons. This clearly shows that changes in how the brain function will affect a person’s perceptions, thinking, emotions and behaviour.

There isn’t a blood test for biplor disorder I would imagine for the same reason there’s no blood test for glaucoma or retinal detachment.

If you have been told you have bipolar disorder you should have a psychiatrist you trust and can talk to. My understanding is that it is of varying severity, but is chronic and most often necessitates the use of medication. It can really mess up a person’s life. Look at ,Robin Williams. On the other hand, he was able to accomplish so much in spite of it.

I said there isn’t a blood test for bipolar disorder as an example that there isn’t any test or evidence for bipolar disorder or whatever in other words is everything subjective NOT objective and your post is completely subjective without proofs.
Do you know who supported that study? pharmaceutical companies.

 

[jaimelopez]

There are many ways to diagnose illnesses besides blood tests. Oriental doctors feel the pulses and look at the tongue, smell the breath, and sometimes taste urine (ick!). These methods have been used successfully for millenia before Western medicine.

I say it is objective because the patient must meet certain specific, measurable, observable criteria.

Not yet. There are studies in progress looking at genetics as well as other factors. But quite honestly, I don’t know if one will ever be determined. What we can do is treat what we can see (symptoms) and sometimes this is done with medication, vitamins, minerals, and behavior therapies.

You seem very angry, Jaime. Some people with mental illnesses have trouble with anger. Some are angry because they are ill. Some are angry because psychiatry cannot make them well. One thing I can tell you that is 100% true:

“This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; 20for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God.” James 1:20

Harboring anger and resentment makes the human soul sick, whether one has a mental illness or not. The way to get rid of it is forgiveness. One must forgive all those one feels harmed by . In your case, this might include the profession of psychiatry. Another way out of this illness is to pray for them.

"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.…Matt. 5:44

Bless them, love them, and pray for them. Then you will be healed from anger and resentment.

I supposed you don’t know the causes. I’m not angry, I think if you took Jesus to a psychiatry “doctor” he would find many, so many mental illnesses. He Jesus got angry sometimes but this is NOT about me or you(ad hominem) this about TRUTH and If I get angry I calm down I don’t need drugs and I don’t have a bipolar disorder It was my example

 

[CHRISTINE77]

There isn’t a blood test for biplor disorder I would imagine for the same reason there’s no blood test for glaucoma or retinal detachment. .

Glaucoma and retinal detachment are physical problems, not mental disorders. Totally different. Not even close to a good comparison.

If you have been told you have bipolar disorder you should have a psychiatrist you trust and can talk to. My understanding is that it is of varying severity, but is chronic and most often necessitates the use of medication. It can really mess up a person’s life. Look at ,Robin Williams. On the other hand, he was able to accomplish so much in spite of it.

Robin Williams committed suicide. What good were all the drugs they gave him?

 

[Aloysium]

Glaucoma and retinal detachment are physical problems, not mental disorders. Totally different. Not even close to a good comparison.

Robin Williams committed suicide. What good were all the drugs they gave him?

I think mental illness is usually physical. There are also personal, familial and social causes of distress.

I’m talking about dementia, hallucinations, delusions, marked and irrational anxiety, depression and euphoria. If someone goes around yelling at random people on the street there is something wrong. Recently a woman who had once been a financier but ended up homeless stabbed a total stranger at a coffee shop who had been minding her own business. A few years ago a guy cut off the head of the person sitting next to him on a bus because, he later said, he thought the person was an alien from space. There is something seriously wrong with these people and it has to do with their brains.

From what I understand medication works in about 70% of cases. Placebo in about 40%.

Suicide is an extremely complex phenomenon. I have no idea why he killed himself. I don’t think anyone ever does know why someone takes their own lives.

 

[jaimelopez]

I think mental illness is usually physical. There are also personal, familial and social causes of distress.

you think? In fact psychiatrists don’t know the mental illness causes, a big deal.They just have theories Can you trust doctor who doesn’t know what causes any mental illness? they’re blind.

Aloysium:

I’m talking about dementia, hallucinations, delusions, marked and irrational anxiety, depression and euphoria. If someone goes around yelling at random people on the street there is something wrong. Recently a woman who had once been a financier but ended up homeless stabbed a total stranger at a coffee shop who had been minding her own business. A few years ago a guy cut off the head of the person sitting next to him on a bus because, he later said, he thought the person was an alien from space. There is something seriously wrong with these people and it has to do with their brains.

I don’t deny mental illnesses I reject psychiatry because it isn’t science it pretend to be one.

Aloysium:

From what I understand medication works in about 70% of cases. Placebo in about 40%.

Suicide is an extremely complex phenomenon. I have no idea why he killed himself. I don’t think anyone ever does know why someone takes their own lives.

I used to think that happiness came from God/Jesus but now I see that we say to unhappy people that they need drugs not Jesus, evangelicals put Jesus first and they allow to Holy Spirit doing His work. I love science, a good one.:console:

 

[CHRISTINE77]

you think? In fact psychiatrists don’t know the mental illness causes, a big deal.They just have theories Can you trust doctor who doesn’t know what causes any mental illness? they’re blind.

I don’t deny mental illnesses I reject psychiatry because it isn’t science it pretend to be one.

I used to think that happiness came from God/Jesus but now I see that we say to unhappy people that they need drugs not Jesus, evangelicals put Jesus first and they allow to Holy Spirit doing His work. I love science, a good one.:console:

They need Jesus much more than drugs and psychiatrists. You are on the right track.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I think mental illness is usually physical. There are also personal, familial and social causes of distress.

What you think is just what you think. What evidence do you have? A doctor can look into a person’s eyes and see a detached retina or glaucoma - can a doctor look into a person’s eyes and see mental illness? I don’t think so.

 

[jaimelopez]

They need Jesus much more than drugs and psychiatrists. You are on the right track.

they need HIM and so do we.

 

[jaimelopez]

What you think is just what you think. What evidence do you have? A doctor can look into a person’s eyes and see a detached retina or glaucoma - can a doctor look into a person’s eyes and see mental illness? I don’t think so.

Say him you are using an analogy so that he won’t think that you think that mental illnesses are in the eyes

 

[multitude]

There are some serious and unwanted side effects to some of them. But, as a person who has benefitted from psychotropic medications several times in my life I am for better living through chemistry.

Congrats! However I am not entirely sure I like the implicit suggestion of being a Luddite. My loved ones are not guinea pigs to be told that the medications may have unwanted side effects. And from what I have seen, that is an understatement. A good part of science is about updating your information and theories based on new empirical evidence. And that is what I am doing.

 

[guanophore]

I said there isn't a blood test for bipolar disorder as an example that there isn't any test or evidence for bipolar disorder or whatever in other words is everything subjective NOT objective and your post is completely subjective without proofs.

I guess it is not possible to get you to understand this, Jaime, because you don’t know much about science, diagnostic criteria, and the difference between subjective and objective. I am not even sure you understand what “criteria” are. Perhaps this information will be helpful to others reading this thread.

Do you know who supported that study? pharmaceutical companies.

Pharmaceutical companies put a lot of money into research and development, and they try to recoup it bringing effective medications to market. The case is the same for medications of all kinds of illnesses, such as muscular dystrophy and multiple sclerosis. Are they bad people because they are in it to make money? Maybe you need to add them to the list of people you need to forgive so you don’t have to go on living with resentment. Resentment is more damaging to the soul than all the bad pharmaceuticals you can find!

Taking medications and having them not work or having bad side effects is distressing but lack of forgiveness will land you in hell.

For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15"But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.Matt. 6:15.

Forgive them, Jaime. Be healed so you can move on with your life. You won’t have to waste your precious energy accusing others of their wrongdoing, and you can focus on taking the splinter out of your own eye.