Is Purgatory in the bible

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=Tom Baum;12476417]Thank you for the advice but I believe that I should follow God the way that I believe God wants me to follow God.
Tom, I respect that!

But truth is as it must be singular per defined issues.

From OUR Catholic Catechism
“1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings”

God Bless you Tom.
 
‘I DESIRE therefore first of all things that obsecrations, prayers, postulations, thanksgivings be made for all men, For kings and all that are in preeminence: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and charity. For this is good and acceptable before our Saviour God, Who will all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth,’

1 Tim 2:1-4

‘Accordingly, when we hear and read in Scripture that He “will have all men to be saved,” although we know well that all men are not saved, we are not on that account to restrict the omnipotence of GOd, but are rather to understand the Scripture, “Who will have all men to be saved,” as meaning that no man is saved unless God wills his salvation: not that there is no man whose salvation He does not will, but that no man is saved apart from His will. . .’

St. Augustine

The context of ‘all men’ there is ‘For kings and all that are in preeminance’ . . .

‘Or, it is said, “Who will have all men to be saved;” not that there is no man whose salvation He does not will (for how, then, explain the fact that He was unwilling to work miracles in the presence of some who, He said, would have repented if He had worked them?), but that we are to understand by “all men,” the human race, in all its varieties of rank and circumstances – kings, subjects, noble, plebian, high, low, learned, and unlearned; the sound in body, the feeble, the clever, the dull, the foolish, the rich, the ppor, youths; young, middle-aged, and old men; of every tongue and of every fashion. . .’

St. Augustine

'Our Lord, too, makes use of the same mode of speech in the Gospel, when He says to the Pharisees: “Ye tithe mint, and rue, and every herb.” For the Pharisees did not tithe what belonged to others, nor all the herbs of the inhabitants of other lands. As, then, in this place, we must understand by “every herb,” every kind of herbs, so in the former passage, we may understand by “all men,” every sort of men."

St. Augustine

'Since, then, the will of God is the universal cause of all things, it is impossible that the divine will should not produce its effect. Hence that which seems to depart from the divine will in one order, returns into it in another order; as does the sinner, who by sin falls away from the divine will as much as lies in him, yet falls back into the order of that will, when by its justice he is punished.

The words of the Apostle, “God will have all men to be saved,” etc. can be understood in three ways.

First, by a restricted application, in which case they would mean, as Augustine says (De praed. sanct. i, 8: Enchiridion 103), “God wills all men to be saved that are saved, not because there is no man whom He does not wish saved, but because there is no man saved whose salvation He does not will.”

Secondly, they can be understood as applying to every class of individuals, not to every individual of each class; in which case they mean that God wills some men of every class and condition to be saved, males and females, Jews and Gentiles, great and small, but not all of every condition.

Thirdly, according to Damascene (De Fide Orth. ii, 29), they are understood of the antecedent will of God; not of the consequent will. This distinction must not be taken as applying to the divine will itself, in which there is nothing antecedent nor consequent, but to the things willed.

To understand this we must consider that everything, in so far as it is good, is willed by God. A thing taken in its primary sense, and absolutely considered, may be good or evil, and yet when some additional circumstances are taken into account, by a consequent consideration may be changed into the contrary. Thus that a man should live is good; and that a man should be killed is evil, absolutely considered. But if in a particular case we add that a man is a murderer or dangerous to society, to kill him is a good; that he live is an evil. Hence it may be said of a just judge, that antecedently he wills all men to live; but consequently wills the murderer to be hanged. In the same way God antecedently wills all men to be saved, but consequently wills some to be damned, as His justice exacts. Nor do we will simply, what we will antecedently, but rather we will it in a qualified manner; for the will is directed to things as they are in themselves, and in themselves they exist under particular qualifications. Hence we will a thing simply inasmuch as we will it when all particular circumstances are considered; and this is what is meant by willing consequently. Thus it may be said that a just judge wills simply the hanging of a murderer, but in a qualified manner he would will him to live, to wit, inasmuch as he is a man. Such a qualified will may be called a willingness rather than an absolute will. Thus it is clear that whatever God simply wills takes place; although what He wills antecedently may not take place. ’

St. Thomas Aquinas
 
Tom, I respect that!

But truth is as it must be singular per defined issues.

From OUR Catholic Catechism
“1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings”

God Bless you Tom.
Thank you for the blessing, I need all of the blessings I can get.

And may God bless and have mercy on us ALL.

One of the reasons that I like the Mass in the vernacular is that I know “my” vernacular and sometimes, even tho one may have heard it a “million” times, something comes thru such as in one of the Eucharistic prayers, I believe, when the Priest prays, "May God have mercy on us ALL.
 
=Tom Baum;12486977]Thank you for the blessing, I need all of the blessings I can get.
And may God bless and have mercy on us ALL.
One of the reasons that I like the Mass in the vernacular is that I know “my” vernacular and sometimes, even tho one may have heard it a “million” times, something comes thru such as in one of the Eucharistic prayers, I believe, when the Priest prays, "May God have mercy on us ALL.
AMEN!👍
 
Thank you for the advice but I believe that I should follow God the way that I believe God wants me to follow God.
Isn’t that what Luther and Calvin (just to pick two) thought, also?

Truth cannot contradict Truth. When any two faith traditions teach two mutually contradictory things, both can’t possibly be right at the same time.

Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life” – not “I am a way, a truth, and a life”

He also said, “teach them to observe all that I have commanded you” – not “teach them to observe what they believe I have commanded you.”
 
Isn’t that what Luther and Calvin (just to pick two) thought, also?

Truth cannot contradict Truth. When any two faith traditions teach two mutually contradictory things, both can’t possibly be right at the same time.

Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life” – not “I am a way, a truth, and a life”

He also said, “teach them to observe all that I have commanded you” – not “teach them to observe what they believe I have commanded you.”
That’s good.

👍
 
Thank you for the advice but I believe that I should follow God the way that I believe God wants me to follow God.
Of course.

However, if the way that you believe that God wants you to follow Him is at odds with what He has established for the Church that He set up specifically for your benefit, then someone is wrong.

And I don’t believe it is the Church.
 
Isn’t that what Luther and Calvin (just to pick two) thought, also?
Could be, have you ever thought that they did just what God wanted them to do in God’s creation?
Truth cannot contradict Truth. When any two faith traditions teach two mutually contradictory things, both can’t possibly be right at the same time.
One can look at the bible and “see” what appears to be “two mutually contradictory things”, are they or could they be “two complementary things” in the Eyes of God?
Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life” – not “I am a way, a truth, and a life”
Jesus did say, “I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life and no one comes to the FATHER except thru Me”, if you notice Jesus did NOT say that there was/is only one way to Jesus, did He?
He also said, “teach them to observe all that I have commanded you” – not “teach them to observe what they believe I have commanded you.”
Jesus said lots of things, some of which are: “Father forgive them…”, them, not some of them; “When I am lifted up, I will draw EVERYONE to Myself”, everyone, not just some.

Was Jesus being contradictory or was God being complementary in covering ALL OF THE BASES, so to speak?

I do have “beliefs” and I do have “hopes” and I base these “hopes and beliefs” on the “fact” that God Is a Being of Love.
 
Of course.

However, if the way that you believe that God wants you to follow Him is at odds with what He has established for the Church that He set up specifically for your benefit, then someone is wrong.

And I don’t believe it is the Church.
Who knows, maybe this could be at least part of the reason why God chose me to do what God chose me to do rather than choosing you to do what God chose me to do.

I have heard that God works in mysterious ways, have you?
 
One can look at the bible and “see” what appears to be “two mutually contradictory things”, are they or could they be “two complementary things” in the Eyes of God?
Catholics (and Orthodox) look at certain Bible verses and see justification for a male-only clergy. Most Protestant denominations look at the same Bible verses and see justification for female and/or openly gay clergy.

Catholics (and Orthodox and some Protestant denominations) look at certain Bible verses and see justification for infant baptism. Other Protestant denominations (the Baptists come to mind) look at the same Bible verses but don’t see that.

How can these (or most any other example anyone can think of) be “two complementary things” in the Eyes of God?
 
Who knows, maybe this could be at least part of the reason why God chose me to do what God chose me to do rather than choosing you to do what God chose me to do.
I’m willing to bet it’s a major reason why God chose John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis to do what they did/do, and not you :rolleyes:
 
Catholics (and Orthodox) look at certain Bible verses and see justification for a male-only clergy. Most Protestant denominations look at the same Bible verses and see justification for female and/or openly gay clergy.

Catholics (and Orthodox and some Protestant denominations) look at certain Bible verses and see justification for infant baptism. Other Protestant denominations (the Baptists come to mind) look at the same Bible verses but don’t see that.

How can these (or most any other example anyone can think of) be “two complementary things” in the Eyes of God?
As far as, “How can these (or most any other example anyone can think of) be “two complementary things” in the Eyes of God?”

First off, I am NOT God and I would say that God has better “vision” than me and it says very plainly that about the best that we can do is “see thru a glass darkly” or something to that effect, doesn’t it?

Actually, I wasn’t talking about such petty things anyway, I was talking about God’s Plan for the Atonement of God and man for a starter.
 
I’m willing to bet it’s a major reason why God chose John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis to do what they did/do, and not you :rolleyes:
God chose none of us to be someone else.

I would say that if God wanted a bunch of clones than God would have made us a bunch of clones but God made absolutely everyone different and absolutely every one of else has a different “job”.
 
Who knows, maybe this could be at least part of the reason why God chose me to do what God chose me to do rather than choosing you to do what God chose me to do.

I have heard that God works in mysterious ways, have you?
God is not a God of confusion. He wouldn’t make public revelation known to all mankind, and then privately contradict that revelation and confuse people.
 
God is not a God of confusion. He wouldn’t make public revelation known to all mankind, and then privately contradict that revelation and confuse people.
What is the “public revelation known to all mankind”, that God has made?

I, personally, believe that the words (know and believe) mean different things.
 
What is the “public revelation known to all mankind”, that God has made?
Read 1 Cor 3:11-15:

“11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw –
13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” [RSV]

Then please point out to us exactly where, in your theology, a saved man goes through fire. As near as I can tell from your previous posts, the only fire in your theology is hell fire, and saved men do not experience it. But yet here a saved man undergoes a test of fire! The ‘Day’ mentioned in verse 13 is the day of judgement. A man dies and is judged to be saved yet he undergoes a purification by fire where his works are tested and his good works are refined like gold and silver while his other works are burnt off. This is to make the man worthy of heaven because the book of Revelation states:

“27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.” Rev 21:27 [RSV]

Without this purgation of everything unclean no one gets into heaven. . . no one.

There are of Bible verseslots (aka “public revelation known to all mankind”) that talk about the refiner’s fire.
 
Read 1 Cor 3:11-15:

“11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw –
13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” [RSV]

Then please point out to us exactly where, in your theology, a saved man goes through fire. As near as I can tell from your previous posts, the only fire in your theology is hell fire, and saved men do not experience it. But yet here a saved man undergoes a test of fire! The ‘Day’ mentioned in verse 13 is the day of judgement. A man dies and is judged to be saved yet he undergoes a purification by fire where his works are tested and his good works are refined like gold and silver while his other works are burnt off. This is to make the man worthy of heaven because the book of Revelation states:

“27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.” Rev 21:27 [RSV]

Without this purgation of everything unclean no one gets into heaven. . . no one.

There are lots of Bible verses (aka “public revelation known to all mankind”) that talk about the refiner’s fire.
Ever heard of God referred to as a “Consuming Fire of Love”?

Does a person stand apart from his/her works or does a person stand with his/her work?

Just What or Who do you think will be the Agent responsible for the burning up and/or purification?

You, yourself, have written that a person “undergoes a purification by fire”, so is that what you meant or do you mean that a person’s work is “purified” and then the person goes over to pick up the “good stuff that is left”?

“My God, My God why have Thou forsaken Me?”, do you think that Jesus felt that it was a good time to say this psalm or that this psalm was coming true before our very ears when Jesus said it on the cross?
 
Read 1 Cor 3:11-15:

“11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw –
13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” [RSV]

Then please point out to us exactly where, in your theology, a saved man goes through fire. As near as I can tell from your previous posts, the only fire in your theology is hell fire, and saved men do not experience it. But yet here a saved man undergoes a test of fire! The ‘Day’ mentioned in verse 13 is the day of judgement. A man dies and is judged to be saved yet he undergoes a purification by fire where his works are tested and his good works are refined like gold and silver while his other works are burnt off. This is to make the man worthy of heaven because the book of Revelation states:

“27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.” Rev 21:27 [RSV]

Without this purgation of everything unclean no one gets into heaven. . . no one.

There are lots of Bible verses (aka “public revelation known to all mankind”) that talk about the refiner’s fire.
catholictreasury.info/books/treatise_on_purgatory/
 
Tom_Baum,

Am I seeing correctly that your Religion is Catholic?

God Bless
 
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