Is Purgatory in the bible

[Tom_Baum]

Yes.

Have you given any thought to the article I provided the link to?

Yes I have and just to mention a couple of things written there:

As far as “Evildoers, in the end, do not sit at table at the eternal banquet beside their victims without distinction, as though nothing had happened.”

Well, one of the things that has happened is that God became One of us and went to the cross.

Aren’t we supposed to forgive just as Jesus showed us on the cross, “Father, forgive them…”?

What about Isaiah Chapter 11:

But a shoot shall sprout from the stump of Jesse, and from his roots a bud shall blossom. The spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him: a spirit of wisdom and of understanding, A spirit of counsel and of strength, a spirit of knowledge and of fear of the LORD, and his delight shall be the fear of the LORD. Not by appearance shall he judge, nor by hearsay shall he decide, But he shall judge the poor with justice, and decide fairly for the land’s afflicted. He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked. Justice shall be the band around his waist, and faithfulness a belt upon his hips. Then the wolf shall be a guest of the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat; The calf and the young lion shall browse together, with a little child to guide them. The cow and the bear shall graze, together their young shall lie down; the lion shall eat hay like the ox. The baby shall play by the viper’s den, and the child lay his hand on the adder’s lair. They shall not harm or destroy on all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be filled with knowledge of the LORD, as water covers the sea.

Seems like a lot of adversaries are spoken of in these verses as changing somewhat, doesn’t it?

We speak about “Loving the sinner and hating the sin”, maybe we should actually think about some things that we say rather than just parroting them.

God may very well have a Godly way of separating the sin and the sinner with the sinner asking and not being “forced”.

Could be that God has a way even if it does seem to upset some that God has a way.

Toward the end of the article it says, “There is, as the Creed says, a final judgment of the living and the dead. It is on this basis that the integrity of human dignity and divine love can take its stand.”

Ever thought that the “final judgement” is that we are ALL guilty, every one of us?

Thanks to God and “original sin” we are ALL guilty, even those with no personal sin.

Some admit it upfront and others take longer to admit it.

Could be why God came up with a Plan even before creation and God’s Plan includes no one escaping sin and no one escaping SALVATION.

As it is written, “IT IS FINISHED” which translates as PAID IN FULL.

God becoming One of us brought our “human dignity” out of the gutter of guilt that ALL of us helped to put there.

Then “DIVINE LOVE” which took “Its stand” at the cross may very well be more of a surprise to many believers as to non-believers.

I didn’t realize until quite recently the absolutely disgusting view of justice that some have, even more so with Divine Justice.

I have heard it said, “Why do the right thing if all are going to the “good place”, ultimately, anyway?”

Kind of a childish way of looking at things, to put it mildly, don’t you think?

As far as, “the integrity of human dignity and divine love”, is this the INCARNATION?

 

[Shin]

The beauty of Catholicism is that it is the Lord God’s revealed religion. Thus, in the areas and places where He has revealed the truth we simply believe, because we trust the One who has revealed it.

To have to rely on oneself and one’s own speculations for one’s salvation would certainly be a cause for greatest anxiety, but to not have to do so because God has given you what is required is the show of His great goodness.

As Catholicism has existed for two thousand years, or rather, from the very beginning if one considers true Judaism and the natural religion from Adam…

We do not have to pave new ground with speculative forays into Biblical interpretation on matters such as Hell or other fundamentals.

It is all there for us already, thousands of years of people of the highest virtue giving us the fullest of pictures.

If we have trouble accepting portions of that picture, then we need to work on why within ourselves and have faith. After all, the saints, who are certainly more virtuous than us, embraced all through all their heavy trials in life.

There can’t be interior improvement and conversion if there’s nothing to convert and improve to, we already have it all.

The virtue of faith requires us to embrace matters of revealed truth, and because we do so that virtue gains us spiritual beauty.

 

[pete_bowes]

Getting out of purgatory is like getting into Paradise through the eye of a needle

 

[Randy_Carson]

As it is written, “IT IS FINISHED” which translates as PAID IN FULL.

This is not what “It is finished” refers to. Jesus said these words immediately after taking a sip of wine from the sponge - wine which he had previously rejected. Why?

Because that taste of wine constituted the fourth cup of the passover meal which was begun in the upper room BUT NOT COMPLETED until He took that final sip.

This is explained by Scott Hahn here:

zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/4cp.html

Finally, why do we know with certainty that your interpretation is wrong? Because scripture says so. Paul wrote:

Romans 4:25
25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Justification occurs at Christ’s resurrection - which did not occur until Easter morning and not on Friday afternoon. Thus, Jesus’ work was NOT finished, our justification NOT accomplished, while He still hung upon the cross.

 

[zz912]

Isn’t there something about “new heavens and a new earth”?

Is there any mention of “hell” in the “new heavens and the new earth”?

Isn’t there something about some things thrown somewhere?

Isn’t there mention of some things “passing away”?

Question: On this earth in this physical life, isn’t there sometimes when “parts” of us are “done away with” by physicians"?

Didn’t Jesus, Himself, speak of entering heaven with “parts” missing and saying that that was better than not entering at all?

I “know” that I know very little but it seems to me that those who think that they “know-it-all” don’t seem to know very much either and many times what they say they “know” is in reality what they “believe”.

One of the things that I am saying is that it is OK to think.

God is the Good Shepherd. He didn’t leave us to wander aimlessly, lost and confused about questions like this. He left us a Church to be the pillar and foundation of the truth.

 

[PJM]

=Tom Baum;12381555]As far as, “God’s amazing desire to save as many souls as possible”

It is written, “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills EVERYONE to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.”

It is written, "And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw EVERYONE to myself.”

When Jesus was asked by His Apostles about who can be saved, He replied, “With man it is impossible but with God ALL things are possible.”

Seems to me that “God’s amazing desire” is also “God’s Will” which is that God “wills EVERYONE to be saved”.

And it was God-Incarnate, Himself, Who when asked to teach us to pray, taught us to pray, “…Thy Kingdom Come, THY WILL BE DONE…”.

So it sure does seem that not only is it God’s Will that ALL be saved but it is also God’s Will that we pray that God’s “Will be done”.

Hi Tom,

Here MY FRIEND is what your missing:

There is an infallible rule fir right understanding of the Bible {which is BTW} a Catholic book:

Never EVER, can, may or DOES
One verse, passage pr teaching
Have the Power or Authority
to make void, invalidate or OVERRIDE
another
Verse, passage or teaching.

Tom, were this even the slightest possibility {its NOT} it would render the bible as being useless for teaching or learning the One True Faith; which is all that is logically possible:thumbsup:

Mt/ 28: 16-20 “And the eleven disciples {Apostles} went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold ***I am with you ***all days, even to the consummation of the world”

Then my friend, please READ Mt. 10:18, and Mt. 16:15-19, all of which affirm and confirm that Jesus intended that HIS Catholic Church alone TEACH His truths; as they alone are guarded and guided by the HS. READ John 17:11-26.

Sorry it took so long to get back to you. I have very limited internet access at present.

God Bless you!

Patrick

 

[Erich]

As it is written, “IT IS FINISHED” which translates as PAID IN FULL.

When Jesus said “It is finished” in John 19:30, what does the 'it’ refer to?

We know that ‘it’ is NOT the completion of our redemption at that moment… because as St. Paul tells us, our redemption is not complete without Jesus being “raised for our justification” (Rom. 4:25) – and on Good Friday that was still a couple of days away.

 

[Tom_Baum]

This is not what “It is finished” refers to. Jesus said these words immediately after taking a sip of wine from the sponge - wine which he had previously rejected. Why?

Because that taste of wine constituted the fourth cup of the passover meal which was begun in the upper room BUT NOT COMPLETED until He took that final sip.

This is explained by Scott Hahn here:

zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/4cp.html

Finally, why do we know with certainty that your interpretation is wrong? Because scripture says so. Paul wrote:

Romans 4:25
25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Justification occurs at Christ’s resurrection - which did not occur until Easter morning and not on Friday afternoon. Thus, Jesus’ work was NOT finished, our justification NOT accomplished, while He still hung upon the cross.

Why would you think that something can mean one thing and one thing only?

God can “say” a lot with few words or actions.

Jesus “paid” by HIs work on the cross and this “payment” was shown to be paid by His Resurrection.

Did Jesus’s Resurrection pay anything or show that something has been “PAID IN FULL”?

 

[Tom_Baum]

God is the Good Shepherd. He didn’t leave us to wander aimlessly, lost and confused about questions like this. He left us a Church to be the pillar and foundation of the truth.

I happen to think that God wants all of his sheep to think not just the higher-ups, do you have an opinion on this?

I really do not believe that Christianity is about a few thinking for the majority.

If one has the God-given ability to think than I believe that one should use that God-given ability.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Hi Tom,

Here MY FRIEND is what your missing:

There is an infallible rule fir right understanding of the Bible {which is BTW} a Catholic book:

Never EVER, can, may or DOES
One verse, passage pr teaching
Have the Power or Authority
to make void, invalidate or OVERRIDE
another
Verse, passage or teaching.

Tom, were this even the slightest possibility {its NOT} it would render the bible as being useless for teaching or learning the One True Faith; which is all that is logically possible:thumbsup:

Mt/ 28: 16-20 “And the eleven disciples {Apostles} went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold ***I am with you ***all days, even to the consummation of the world”

Then my friend, please READ Mt. 10:18, and Mt. 16:15-19, all of which affirm and confirm that Jesus intended that HIS Catholic Church alone TEACH His truths; as they alone are guarded and guided by the HS. READ John 17:11-26.

Sorry it took so long to get back to you. I have very limited internet access at present.

God Bless you!

Patrick

Do you really believe that Mt 10:18 and John 17:11-26 are only about the Apostles?

And as far as Mt 16: 17-19, "Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Do you really think that this “revelation” by God the Father to Peter was the last revelation by God the Father to any other human being?

Jesus did say that “I will build my church” and that “the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it”, concerning “the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it”, this is Jesus telling ALL of us just what the “mission” of His Church Is.

You wrote, “Never EVER, can, may or DOES
One verse, passage pr teaching
Have the Power or Authority
to make void, invalidate or OVERRIDE
another
Verse, passage or teaching.”

So you are saying that the bible verses that say, “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” can NOT be made “void, invalidated or OVERRIDDEN” and that Jesus teaching us to pray for “…Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will BE DONE…”, is very much asking us to pray for GOD’S WILL TO BE DONE?

 

[Tom_Baum]

When Jesus said “It is finished” in John 19:30, what does the 'it’ refer to?

We know that ‘it’ is NOT the completion of our redemption at that moment… because as St. Paul tells us, our redemption is not complete without Jesus being “raised for our justification” (Rom. 4:25) – and on Good Friday that was still a couple of days away.

“It” refers to what Jesus’s “work on the cross” was for, which was “taking ALL of the sins of ALL upon Himself”.

“Jesus being “raised for our justification””, one could say, is showing that “It” was not just “Finished” but accepted as PAYMENT IN FULL.

 

[zz912]

I happen to think that God wants all of his sheep to think not just the higher-ups, do you have an opinion on this?

I really do not believe that Christianity is about a few thinking for the majority.

If one has the God-given ability to think than I believe that one should use that God-given ability.

You’re conflating thinking/questioning/learning with determining truth. You’re encouraged to ask question, think, learn, and ponder as much as you can. But none of that actually changes the truth and reality. God gave shepherds to guide us into the truth. If you get to the point where you believe 2+3=4, then you need to correct your thinking, and learn better, because you are wrong.

 

[zz912]

“It” refers to what Jesus’s “work on the cross” was for, which was “taking ALL of the sins of ALL upon Himself”.

“Jesus being “raised for our justification””, one could say, is showing that “It” was not just “Finished” but accepted as PAYMENT IN FULL.

“It” refers to the completion of the Last Supper, and the Paschal sacrifice. Jesus intentionally did not complete the Passover meal at the Last Supper. He left off the final cup of wine which concluded the Passover. He proclaimed that He would not drink the fruit of the vine until He drank it with us new in the Kingdom of the Father.

What do we see immediately before He said “It is finished”? He drinks the sour wine offered to Him. He is showing that the sacrifice has been completed.

Of course, this doesn’t mean that salvation is complete, because it isn’t complete until Easter Sunday when the Resurrection happens.

 

[Tom_Baum]

You’re conflating thinking/questioning/learning with determining truth. You’re encouraged to ask question, think, learn, and ponder as much as you can. But none of that actually changes the truth and reality. God gave shepherds to guide us into the truth. If you get to the point where you believe 2+3=4, then you need to correct your thinking, and learn better, because you are wrong.

Some even seem to “think” that Jesus meant that the Holy Spirit was going to be sent to only a select “few”.

Of course, sometimes, some of the sacraments take a couple of decades for them to kick in, so to speak.

 

[Erich]

“It” refers to what Jesus’s “work on the cross” was for, which was “taking ALL of the sins of ALL upon Himself”.

“Jesus being “raised for our justification””, one could say, is showing that “It” was not just “Finished” but accepted as PAYMENT IN FULL.

So… Jesus did all that needed to be done for us through His death on the cross, the work of salvation is done, it’s over, it’s completed, all that needs to be done, has been done, period?

Draw a big circle on a piece of paper. This circle represents the set of all people who were redeemed by Christ’s death on the cross. In other words, the circle represents all of humanity, because Jesus died for all men…that all men might be saved. 1 Timothy 4:10 says that Jesus is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe. Which means not that all men are definitely saved, but that all men can be saved. And they can be saved because Jesus paid the price for all men’s sins - He has redeemed all of mankind. All of humanity is redeemed by Jesus’ death on the Cross. But, not all of humanity is saved.

Now draw a smaller circle within the first circle. Big circle…smaller circle inside the big circle. This second circle represents the subset of those who have not only been redeemed, but who have also been saved. Which means that those outside of that second circle represent the redeemed and unsaved.

What is the difference between the two circles?

 

[PJM]

=Tom Baum;12442057]Yes I have and just to mention a couple of things written there:

As far as “Evildoers, in the end, do not sit at table at the eternal banquet beside their victims without distinction, as though nothing had happened.”

Well, one of the things that has happened is that God became One of us and went to the cross.

Aren’t we supposed to forgive just as Jesus showed us on the cross, “Father, forgive them…”?

What about Isaiah Chapter 11:

But a shoot shall sprout from the stump of Jesse, and from his roots a bud shall blossom. The spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him: a spirit of wisdom and of understanding, A spirit of counsel and of strength, a spirit of knowledge and of fear of the LORD, and his delight shall be the fear of the LORD. Not by appearance shall he judge, nor by hearsay shall he decide, But he shall judge the poor with justice, and decide fairly for the land’s afflicted. He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked. Justice shall be the band around his waist, and faithfulness a belt upon his hips. Then the wolf shall be a guest of the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat; The calf and the young lion shall browse together, with a little child to guide them. The cow and the bear shall graze, together their young shall lie down; the lion shall eat hay like the ox. The baby shall play by the viper’s den, and the child lay his hand on the adder’s lair. They shall not harm or destroy on all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be filled with knowledge of the LORD, as water covers the sea.

Seems like a lot of adversaries are spoken of in these verses as changing somewhat, doesn’t it?

We speak about “Loving the sinner and hating the sin”, maybe we should actually think about some things that we say rather than just parroting them.

God may very well have a Godly way of separating the sin and the sinner with the sinner asking and not being “forced”.

Could be that God has a way even if it does seem to upset some that God has a way.

Toward the end of the article it says, “There is, as the Creed says, a final judgment of the living and the dead. It is on this basis that the integrity of human dignity and divine love can take its stand.”

Ever thought that the “final judgement” is that we are ALL guilty, every one of us?

Thanks to God and “original sin” we are ALL guilty, even those with no personal sin.

Some admit it upfront and others take longer to admit it.

Could be why God came up with a Plan even before creation and God’s Plan includes no one escaping sin and no one escaping SALVATION.

As it is written, “IT IS FINISHED” which translates as PAID IN FULL.

God becoming One of us brought our “human dignity” out of the gutter of guilt that ALL of us helped to put there.

Then “DIVINE LOVE” which took “Its stand” at the cross may very well be more of a surprise to many believers as to non-believers.

I didn’t realize until quite recently the absolutely disgusting view of justice that some have, even more so with Divine Justice.

I have heard it said, “Why do the right thing if all are going to the “good place”, ultimately, anyway?”

Kind of a childish way of looking at things, to put it mildly, don’t you think?

As far as, “the integrity of human dignity and divine love”, is this the INCARNATION?

Tom,

I’m confused { no new thing for me}

Your a “catholic” but the passages you highlighted are very Protestant.

Is your understanding that we all ARE “saved”; that Christ “did it all?”

God Bless,

Patrick

 

[Randy_Carson]

Tom,

I’m confused { no new thing for me}

Your a “catholic” but the passages you highlighted are very Protestant.

Is your understanding that we all ARE “saved”; that Christ “did it all?”

God Bless,

Patrick

Universal salvation. :nope:

 

[Tom_Baum]

Tom,

I’m confused { no new thing for me}

Your a “catholic” but the passages you highlighted are very Protestant.

Is your understanding that we all ARE “saved”; that Christ “did it all?”

God Bless,

Patrick

Jesus did ALL that He became One of us to do, don’t you think?

Yes, I do believe that Jesus is the Saviour of the world, many seem to not believe this.

 

[PJM]

=Tom Baum;12455299]Jesus did ALL that He became One of us to do, don’t you think?

Yes, I do believe that Jesus is the Saviour of the world, many seem to not believe this.

Hi,

So do I believe that ALL Salvation is from and through Jesus

BUT that’s not my question for you.

Do YOU believe that Christ did it all and all hat is necessary is to profess HIM as OUR “Lord and Savior?”

God Bless you Tom,

Patrick

 

[Tom_Baum]

Hi,

So do I believe that ALL Salvation is from and through Jesus

BUT that’s not my question for you.

Do YOU believe that Christ did it all and all hat is necessary is to profess HIM as OUR “Lord and Savior?”

God Bless you Tom,

Patrick

As far as, “Do YOU believe that Christ did it all and all hat is necessary is to profess HIM as OUR “Lord and Savior?””

For what?

Do you mean to go straight to the “good place”?

As far as getting to the “good place”, I do not necessarily believe that it is necessary “to profess HIM as OUR “Lord and Savior””.

Jesus said lots of things besides "profess HIM as OUR “Lord and Savior”.

Also concerning, "Do YOU believe that Christ did it all and all hat is necessary is to profess HIM as OUR “Lord and Savior?”, didn’t Jesus give us the parable about the two who were asked to go out to work in the fields or something like that and one said yes and did not go and one said no and did go?

Jesus, Himself, tells us, in this parable, that empty words are pretty much meaningless, doesn’t He?

As I said, I believe that Jesus is the Saviour of the world and by that I mean the whole world, not just part of it.

Lots of people say that Jesus is the Saviour of the world but seem to believe that there is no way that God could and/or would do this.

I do NOT believe that Jesus went to hell for nothing, everyone’s hell for that matter, and by hell, I do NOT mean just the “abode of the good dead”.