Is Purgatory in the bible

[meherdmann]

I think the book of Wisdom kind of hints at Purgatory here:

The souls of the just are in the hand of God,
and no torment shall touch them.
They seemed, in the view of the foolish, to be dead;
and their passing away was thought an affliction
and their going forth from us, utter destruction.
But they are in peace.
For if before men, indeed, they be punished,
yet is their hope full of immortality;
chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed,
because God tried them
and found them worthy of himself.
As gold in the furnace, he proved them,
and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself.
In the time of their visitation they shall shine,
and shall dart about as sparks through stubble;
they shall judge nations and rule over peoples,
and the LORD shall be their King forever.
Those who trust in him shall understand truth,
and the faithful shall abide with him in love:
because grace and mercy are with his holy ones,
and his care is with his elect.

There’s also a passage from 2 Maccabees that affirms prayer for the dead.

 

[Shin]

'Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God. ’

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

‘Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, impurity, immodesty, luxury, idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, acts of selfishness, dissensions, sects, envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.’

Galatians 5:19-21

'AND I saw a new heaven and a new earth. for the first heaven, and the first earth was gone, and the sea now is not.

And I John saw the holy city Jerusalem new descending from heaven, prepared of God, as a bride adorned for her husband.

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: Behold the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them. And they shall be his people: and he God with them shall be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more. nor mourning, nor crying, neither shall there be sorrow any more, ‘which’ first things are gone.

And he that sat in the throne, said: Behold I make all things new. And he said to me: Write, because these words be most faithful and true.

And he said to me: It is done, I am Alpha and Omega: the beginning and the end. To him that thirsteth I will give of the fountain of the water of life, gratis.

He that shall overcome, shall possess these things, and I will be his God: and he shall be my son.

But to the fearful, and incredulous, and execrable, and murders, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and Idolators, and all liars, their part shall be in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.’

And there came one of the seven Angels that had the vials full of the seven last plagues, and spake with me, saying: Come, and I will show thee the bride, the wife of the Lamb.

And he took me up in spirit unto a mountain great and high: and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God, and the light thereof like to a precious stone, as it were to the jasper stone, even as crystal.

Apocalypse 21:1-11

c.f. One Hundred and Three Quotations from Holy Scripture & the Saints on Hell

c.f. One Hundred and Three Quotations from Holy Scripture & the Saints on Heaven

If one ever wants to rely upon one’s own judgement for salvation rather than in fact, thoughtfully and thinkingly realizing that God has revealed Himself through miracles and Holy Church sufficiently to give intellectual consent to that which one does not understand or finds hard to accept…

Just try fixing your kitchen sink’s plumbing.

Try writing a report without spelling errors. If you can’t find any, give it to someone else, they’ll be found. You couldn’t see it. But other people could. Humility is honesty.

It’s better to rely on Someone else, that’s the thinking man’s choice.

Everyone has some mental missteps that can’t be gotten past alone.

Nowadays many people have a lot of problems accepting hard or painful things, it comes from an excessive reliance on emotions instead of forming ourselves according to reason. But if we form the former using the latter all the emotions fall into proper place too about painful things – rather than a denial that is harmful. Denying train wrecks exist is not a good way to stop them from happening, however painful they are to witness.

They exist. A whole great gamut of painful and difficult matters exist. But -with- God we can transcend them, even though they exist.

 

[PJM]

=Tom Baum;12457580]As far as, “Do YOU believe that Christ did it all and all hat is necessary is to profess HIM as OUR “Lord and Savior?””

For what?

Do you mean to go straight to the “good place”?

As far as getting to the “good place”, I do not necessarily believe that it is necessary “to profess HIM as OUR “Lord and Savior””.

Jesus said lots of things besides "profess HIM as OUR “Lord and Savior”.

Also concerning, "Do YOU believe that Christ did it all and all hat is necessary is to profess HIM as OUR “Lord and Savior?”, didn’t Jesus give us the parable about the two who were asked to go out to work in the fields or something like that and one said yes and did not go and one said no and did go?

Jesus, Himself, tells us, in this parable, that empty words are pretty much meaningless, doesn’t He?

As I said, I believe that Jesus is the Saviour of the world and by that I mean the whole world, not just part of it.

Lots of people say that Jesus is the Saviour of the world but seem to believe that there is no way that God could and/or would do this.

I do NOT believe that Jesus went to hell for nothing, everyone’s hell for that matter, and by hell, I do NOT mean just the “abode of the good dead”.

Thanks Tom

But please define what you mean precisely please, by “Savior of the World?” What do you mean by “savior?”

God Bless you Tom,

Patrick

 

[Tom_Baum]

Thanks Tom

But please define what you mean precisely please, by “Savior of the World?” What do you mean by “savior?”

God Bless you Tom,

Patrick

Well, supposedly we are all infected with original sin and if we live long enough, we all do wrong of our own.

Since God Is a Being of Love, Pure Love, it is God, Himself, Who made an atonement for ALL, hence “Saviour of the world”.

I do not understand why it has to have been done this way but I am not God so it was not my decision just how this “atonement” was to be done, but God’s decision.

This is all about God’s Plan which God has had since before creation and which is unfolding before our very eyes.

Therefore, since a “battle”, so to speak, had been set up between God and satan for God’s creation, with man in the middle so it seems, God put it ALL on the line and became One of us and in doing so put Himself, as God-Incarnate, at the mercy of mankind to look after Him until He was capable of doing it Himself.

God-Incarnate, being looked over and protected and raised by some members of humanity, lived long enough to start and finish what He became One of us to do.

Jesus said on the cross, “IT IS FINISHED”, and with this Jesus’s work culminating with His Crucifixion was finished and this phrase said by Jesus, translates as PAID IN FULL.

The “Ransom” that is spoken of in the bible concerns man’s sins, both original and personal, and this “debt” was paid for by God-Incarnate, Jesus, on the cross because for some reason or another we are not capable of paying it ourself.

If we accept Jesus’s payment then since Jesus’s invitation was to “Come follow Me”, could be that we, somehow, can pass it on to those that, for one reason or another, do not accept it.

Could be that Christianity is about more than picking up one’s “get out of hell” card.

 

[zz912]

As far as, “Do YOU believe that Christ did it all and all hat is necessary is to profess HIM as OUR “Lord and Savior?””

For what?

Do you mean to go straight to the “good place”?

As far as getting to the “good place”, I do not necessarily believe that it is necessary “to profess HIM as OUR “Lord and Savior””.

Jesus said lots of things besides "profess HIM as OUR “Lord and Savior”.

Also concerning, "Do YOU believe that Christ did it all and all hat is necessary is to profess HIM as OUR “Lord and Savior?”, didn’t Jesus give us the parable about the two who were asked to go out to work in the fields or something like that and one said yes and did not go and one said no and did go?

Jesus, Himself, tells us, in this parable, that empty words are pretty much meaningless, doesn’t He?

As I said, I believe that Jesus is the Saviour of the world and by that I mean the whole world, not just part of it.

Lots of people say that Jesus is the Saviour of the world but seem to believe that there is no way that God could and/or would do this.

I do NOT believe that Jesus went to hell for nothing, everyone’s hell for that matter, and by hell, I do NOT mean just the “abode of the good dead”.

Your personal opinions and theology are vastly different from the Christian faith as taught by the Apostles, the first Christians, the Church Fathers, Scripture, and Tradition. Why should we hold to your personal theology over the Christian faith?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Your personal opinions and theology are vastly different from the Christian faith as taught by the Apostles, the first Christians, the Church Fathers, Scripture, and Tradition. Why should we hold to your personal theology over the Christian faith?

Are you sure of that?

“This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.”

I did NOT make up the above quote, I took it straight from the bible, seems pretty straightforward to me, doesn’t it to you?

Even says in the “footnotes” of the “Catholic” version that it, the above quote, “may well have been a very primitive creed”, as in the time of “the first Christians”.

 

[Shin]

Are you sure of that?

It’s a sure thing Tom. You’re going out there on your own. You’re misinterpreting the quote and you well know it is read and understood differently than you do.

 

[Ignatius]

Where exactly does Purgatory come from. I have heard that it is not mentioned in the bible, but that it suggest a place where we are cleansed of our sins before we can get to Heaven is. Can somebody tell me where in the bible it can be found? Thank you.

Yup, sure is. It’s in many places. Here St. Paul is speaking about Purgatory:
1 Coninthians 3: 11- 5 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid , which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is . 14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned , he shall suffer loss : but he himself shall be saved ; yet so as by fire.

 

[Erich]

Are you sure of that?

“This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.”

I did NOT make up the above quote, I took it straight from the bible, seems pretty straightforward to me, doesn’t it to you?

Here’s another quote taken straight from the Bible:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father Who is in Heaven.”

So… if you choose not to do God’s will, are you still able to get into the Kingdom of Heaven? The answer, quite plainly, is NO! Seems pretty straightforward to me, doesn’t it to you?

 

[Brother_Bert]

PURGATORY

The Bible teaches (a) that some sins are forgiven in the next world; (b) that some souls are saved in the next world “by fire”; (c) that it is useful and beneficial to pray for the dead.

Matt. 12-32: And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, NEITHER IN THE WORLD TO COME. (Some sins can therefore be forgiven after death.)

I Cor. 3, 13 and 15: Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 15. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, YET SO AS BY FIRE.

2 Machabees, 12-46: (This is one of the Old Testament books omitted from the Protestant Bible). It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.

COMMENT: As nothing defiled can enter Heaven (Rev. 21-27), there must necessarily exist a state of cleansing or purgation usually called “purgatory.”
www.catholicprayergroup.net

 

[ericc]

You’re assuming that “paradise” here means Heaven. I don’t see a reason for assuming that. The Garden of Eden was a paradise, but it wasn’t Heaven. I see it as Jesus telling the Good Thief that he will be with Him in the Bosom of Abraham that day.

Even if the assumption that “paradise” is indeed heaven, it doesn’t negate the possibility that the Good Thief may make a brief stop at Purgatory on the way to paradise. Many things can be accomplished within a day( and I am not sure that a day is an Earth’s day or a heavenly day) . Note that Jesus didn’t say “Instantly”.

 

[ericc]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily2014 View Post
Please don’t worry that purgatory will never be a credible concept for me, as it totally conflicts with my perception of the eternal Mercy and Love of Our Blessed Lord.

If I throw a rock and break your window (sin) – then ask your forgiveness (as we do in confession) – you forgive me (as Christians should, and as God does in confession),

But… the broken window still needs to be fixed!

The multi quote feature seems to be not functioning.

I think we tend to ignore God’s Justice and tend to focus on God’s Mercy.

Unfortunately, sins do not come with an “undo” button. Some actions are “easy” to repair such as repairing the broken window or returning the stolen $100. Certain sins like murder, rape and adultery can not be repaired but can be forgiven. Although forgiven through God’s mercy, God’s Justice still need to be met. Hence, Purgatory. We have a Merciful and Just God. God is merciful and therefore one did not received everlasting death through sincere repentance . However God is Just and therefore some sort of penance (till the last penny) is required.

Anyway, why would anyone with the stain of sin think of stepping into Heaven without cleaning themselves before putting a foot into God’s mansion? After all if we step on dog poo outside we would wipe ourselves clean before stepping into our own homes. I can assure you that the smell of sin is many times more stinky than dog poo in heaven and I can’t imagine anyone would want to do that to God’s house. I would not want to be so arrogant as to claim that ALL(venial included) my sins have been swept clean through confession and I am spotless for entry to heaven. Remember, nothing unclean can enter heaven. Hence, Purgatory.

 

[PJM]

=Tom Baum;12463520]Well, supposedly we are all infected with original sin and if we live long enough, we all do wrong of our own.

Since God Is a Being of Love, Pure Love, it is God, Himself, Who made an atonement for ALL, hence “Saviour of the world”.

I do not understand why it has to have been done this way but I am not God so it was not my decision just how this “atonement” was to be done, but God’s decision.

This is all about God’s Plan which God has had since before creation and which is unfolding before our very eyes.

Therefore, since a “battle”, so to speak, had been set up between God and satan for God’s creation, with man in the middle so it seems, God put it ALL on the line and became One of us and in doing so put Himself, as God-Incarnate, at the mercy of mankind to look after Him until He was capable of doing it Himself.

God-Incarnate, being looked over and protected and raised by some members of humanity, lived long enough to start and finish what He became One of us to do.

Jesus said on the cross, “IT IS FINISHED”, and with this Jesus’s work culminating with His Crucifixion was finished and this phrase said by Jesus, translates as PAID IN FULL.

The “Ransom” that is spoken of in the bible concerns man’s sins, both original and personal, and this “debt” was paid for by God-Incarnate, Jesus, on the cross because for some reason or another we are not capable of paying it ourself.

If we accept Jesus’s payment then since Jesus’s invitation was to “Come follow Me”, could be that we, somehow, can pass it on to those that, for one reason or another, do not accept it.

Could be that Christianity is about more than picking up one’s “get out of hell” card.

Tom your position is NOT Catholic, a point that I suspect you do understand.

READ 1 John 1:6-10; 1 John 5:16-17 and John 20:19-23

Then reread Mt.26:15-19 & 28:16-20

There is a Infallible rule for right understanding: {caps for emphasis o
not shouting

Never EVER
can, may or DOES
One verse, passage or teaching
Have the power or authority
to make void; invalidate, or OVERRIDE
another verse, passage or teaching.

SUCH EVEN AS A POSSIBILITY {ITS NOT} WOULD RENDER THE ENTIRE BIBLE WORTHLESS TO TEACH OF LEARN THE FAITH

2 Peter 1: 18-21 "18] we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. ***First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. ***

What your doing is assuming what God COU have chosen to do with what God DID choose to do.

Tom this means that if and when one teaches differently than the one church and one faith of Christ; they are in ERROR

You would be well advided to speak with a priest about your positions.

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[Tom_Baum]

Tom your position is NOT Catholic, a point that I suspect you do understand.

READ 1 John 1:6-10; 1 John 5:16-17 and John 20:19-23

Then reread Mt.26:15-19 & 28:16-20

There is a Infallible rule for right understanding: {caps for emphasis o
not shouting

Never EVER
can, may or DOES
One verse, passage or teaching
Have the power or authority
to make void; invalidate, or OVERRIDE
another verse, passage or teaching.

SUCH EVEN AS A POSSIBILITY {ITS NOT} WOULD RENDER THE ENTIRE BIBLE WORTHLESS TO TEACH OF LEARN THE FAITH

2 Peter 1: 18-21 "18] we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. ***First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. ***

What your doing is assuming what God COU have chosen to do with what God DID choose to do.

Tom this means that if and when one teaches differently than the one church and one faith of Christ; they are in ERROR

You would be well advided to speak with a priest about your positions.

God Bless you,
Patrick

Thank you for the advice but I believe that I should follow God the way that I believe God wants me to follow God.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I didn’t read through this whole thread, but on All Souls Day the reading from the Book of Wisdom is all about souls in purgatory:

Wisdom Chapter 3

1
The souls of the righteous are in the hand of God,

and no torment shall touch them.

2
They seemed, in the view of the foolish, to be dead;

and their passing away was thought an affliction

3
and their going forth from us, utter destruction.

But they are in peace.

4
For if to others, indeed, they seem punished,

yet is their hope full of immortality;

5
Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed,

because God tried them

and found them worthy of himself.

6
As gold in the furnace, he proved them,

and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself.

7
In the time of their judgment they shall shine

and dart about as sparks through stubble;

8
They shall judge nations and rule over peoples,

and the LORD shall be their King forever.

9
Those who trust in him shall understand truth,

and the faithful shall abide with him in love:

Because grace and mercy are with his holy ones,

and his care is with the elect.

 

[zz912]

Thank you for the advice but I believe that I should follow God the way that I believe God wants me to follow God.

God has told you to listen to His Church. He didn’t give you any public revelation.

 

[zz912]

Are you sure of that?

“This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.”

I did NOT make up the above quote, I took it straight from the bible, seems pretty straightforward to me, doesn’t it to you?

Even says in the “footnotes” of the “Catholic” version that it, the above quote, “may well have been a very primitive creed”, as in the time of “the first Christians”.

Yes, I’m sure of that. Not because of my own opinionon it, but because Church teaching, and the words of Christ that many will perish and wide is the path tohell. The path to Heaven is narrow, and few will make it.

 

[Tom_Baum]

God has told you to listen to His Church. He didn’t give you any public revelation.

Are you God?

How do you know what God did or did not do in my life?

I suppose that you meant “private revelation” instead of public revelation, who are you or anyone else to tell God just what God can and can not do?

 

[zz912]

Are you God?

Nope.

How do you know what God did or did not do in my life?

I don’t. But God didn’t choose to reveal the Christian faith publicly through you. I know that God Himself, Jesus Christ, instructed us to listen to His Church. So any private revelation that you may have experienced can NEVER contradict this teaching.

I suppose that you meant “private revelation” instead of public revelation, who are you or anyone else to tell God just what God can and can not do?

Nope, I meant public. And I’m not telling God what He can or can’t do. I’m stating what God DID do.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Nope.

I don’t. But God didn’t choose to reveal the Christian faith publicly through you. I know that God Himself, Jesus Christ, instructed us to listen to His Church. So any private revelation that you may have experienced can NEVER contradict this teaching.

Nope, I meant public. And I’m not telling God what He can or can’t do. I’m stating what God DID do.

Are you saying that you know everything that “God DID do”, at least in my life, up until now or at least up until you wrote this?

I would think, not know, that God has probably given many “private revelations” to many different people throughout the ages.

Some of the things that I have written on different posts on this site have come straight from the bible, I did NOT make them up or even say that they came to me by “private revelation”.

I have also mentioned that I do “know” some things and I have also mentioned other places that (believe and know), at least to me, do NOT mean one and the same thing.

I was at an evangelical, non-denominational bible study quite a while ago and someone said concerning, “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth”, this is only God’s Will, seems as if quite a few Catholics think “this is only God’s Will” concerning these verses also.

I, persoanlly, think that it is quite heartening that it, indeed, is God’s Will.