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zz912
Guest
So you are the ultimate decider of truth?
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Erich
Guest
So, the Sacrament of Reconciliation now also cleanses us from our human tendency/desire to sin again (as well as cleansing the temporal effects of our sins), in addition to cleansing us from our past sins?
I don’t think so.
How do you propose anyone can get into heaven if he/she still had a human tendency/desire to sin at the time of death, since “nothing impure will ever enter it”?
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Shin
Guest
Perhaps she didn’t know it was a dogmatic teaching.
Most modern penances are just a seed, as I said earlier, to get a person to begin the penance necessary.
The actual penance due sins in justice is as a rule, significantly larger. That is why you read in old books of indulgenced prayers of so many years of quarantines, etc. reflecting years spent in penitential acts that the canons put forth.
Most modern penances are just a seed, as I said earlier, to get a person to begin the penance necessary.
The actual penance due sins in justice is as a rule, significantly larger. That is why you read in old books of indulgenced prayers of so many years of quarantines, etc. reflecting years spent in penitential acts that the canons put forth.
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Emily2014
Guest
No, of course not. I merely stated that I do not personally believe in purgatory, having always understood that he Sacrament of Reconciliation means that our sins are forgiven, as does the Sacrament of the sick. Others obviously have an equal right to hold different opinions but it is unrealistic to expect anyone to believe something just because they are told to do so.
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catholictiger
Guest
explicitly no, but the Church doesn’t only use the bible as her source for dogma. It has been the tradition of the Church since the time of Christ in a belief in purgatory. The tradition has always held the truth of purgatory.
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zz912
Guest
This thread disproves your claim that you are expected to believe something just because you are told to do so. There are several pages here and in other threads on this topic to explain the teaching of Purgatory, and why it makes sense rationally, why it is necessary in the economy of salvation, and where it is supported in Sacred Scripture, plus where it has always been held by Sacred Tradition and the Church. You are free to research more, learn more, read more, and study on the teaching. You are free to ask questions and learn why the Church teaches about Purgatory. So there is a VERY good support for the teaching and the “why” of the teaching.
And another comment you made, that “others obviously have an equal right to hold different opinions”. It doesn’t matter what a person’s opinion about revealed truth is. Christ is God, and no one’s opinion on that matter changes the fact that He IS God. No one’s opinion on 2+2=4 changes the fact that two plus two DOES equal four. And no one’s opinion on purgatory changes the reality of purgatory.
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Emily2014
Guest
With respect, for you it is true and a reality,- for me it is not, but thank you anyway.
God bless you
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JWH123
Guest
That is true. However, are you or anybody else assured that we will not commit a single sin between the last Confession of our lives and our death? Even if Confession forgives all of our sins, without purgatory for those in between sins, the only souls in heaven would be those who went to Confession, walked out of Confession and were hit by a bus within minutes of doing so, and those who confessed on their deathbeds. 99 percent of Christians will die unexpectedly and will have sinned since their last visit to Confession. I am confident that hell is not crowded with these souls, all of whom had faith in Jesus.
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JWH123
Guest
So all I can do is pray that when you die, it happens immediately after receiving the Sacrament of Reconciliation so that you don’t have the opportunity to commit any sins without having the opportunity to confess them before dying.
Say you go to confession on Saturday and receive full absolution. Complete and unconditional. You walk out of there with a totally clean slate. On Monday you have an argument with someone and accidentally take the Lord’s name in vain. On Monday night, you pass away in your sleep. Your soul is not perfectly clean, so you can’t go to Heaven, according to one of the few verses in Revelation which is clear as day. So, where do you go? Hell, or Purgatory? Would you like to reconsider your beliefs about Purgatory now?
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Erich
Guest
Do you not have answers to the above questions?
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Shin
Guest
One should read up on the nature of faith and how Catholicism is a religion of revealed truth, and what this requires of a person in regards to listening to what God has revealed.
We can have complete confidence because when God reveals something, that’s enough, there’s no need to debate it, because there is no more trustworthy source.
That is what Catholicism is – a religion of revealed truth, one can rest secure in, rather than in relying on one’s own faulty judgement and perception so limited and oft mistaken about perfectly ordinary matters – too often mistaken to rely upon about matters that are invisible after all, having to do with the afterlife and salvation.
And this revelation is surrounded by the miracles of the saints and virtue to show its source in God, along with all the other evidence.
We can have complete confidence because when God reveals something, that’s enough, there’s no need to debate it, because there is no more trustworthy source.
That is what Catholicism is – a religion of revealed truth, one can rest secure in, rather than in relying on one’s own faulty judgement and perception so limited and oft mistaken about perfectly ordinary matters – too often mistaken to rely upon about matters that are invisible after all, having to do with the afterlife and salvation.
And this revelation is surrounded by the miracles of the saints and virtue to show its source in God, along with all the other evidence.
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Hawkiz
Guest
Emily2014,
Can you please explain your non belief in Purgatory more? It will help us to see where you are coming from, as you have been shown through Scripture where the concept exists, the state exists. Do you have anything to refute what you have been shown?
You are correct to say that your sins are forgiven through the Sacrament. I don’t think I have seen anyone disputing that portion. You are further correct that we are to perform penance when it is given. But what of sins that don’t get confessed? Are we thrown into hell for those? We don’t get to plan when we pass from this life. Seems like The Lord is granting still more mercy through Purgatory, and I struggle to see why you or anyone else would have such a problem with that…
Peace in Christ
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Emily2014
Guest
Why do you care what I believe? However,out of respect for you I can only reiterate that
I believe in the mercy and love of God for all of us. He made us all “To love Him and serve Him in this life and to be happy with Him forever in the next”. We will all see the Face of God and be united in His love when we die if we have done our best to live a good life - unless we have committed e.g. premeditated murder or something intrinsically evil for which we feel no repentance. For me, Hell means Not seeing the Face of God - just a nothingness forever. There are many paths to Heaven and I’m sure that there are “many mansions”.
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Ignatius
Guest
It’s all through the bible. It actually goes back to the old testament. See judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/
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Abu
Guest
The forgiveness of sin does not mean necessarily that the punishment remaining is remitted, for “after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.” [CCC 1050].
So not believing in Purgatory is dissent which is unworthy of any real Catholic.
That refusing to believe a doctrine of the Church is despicable for a Catholic is crystal clear:
Pope St John Paul II has confirmed: “It is sometimes claimed that dissent from the Magisterium is totally compatible with being a ‘good Catholic’ and poses no obstacle to the reception of the sacraments. This is a grave error that challenges the teaching office of the bishops of the United States and elsewhere.” [Meeting with US Bishops at Our Lady Queen of Angels Minor Seminary, Los Angeles, Sept 16, 1987].
What then is dissent? It is public opposition to the Magisterium of the Church. Magisterial teaching, by virtue of divine assistance, has validity beyond argumentation, which may derive at times from a particular theology. The freedom of the act of faith cannot justify a right to dissent. (From Instruction On The Ecclesial Vocation Of The Theologian, CDF, 1990).
Christ, the Son of God was very clear in establishing His Catholic Church through St Peter and giving Her through St Peter and his successors the fullness of truth and authority on earth.
The first error is in disregarding the mandate of Jesus, the Son of God, in installing Peter as His Supreme Vicar:
**All four promises to Peter alone: **
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later also to the Twelve, under Peter].
**Sole authority: **
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).
The second error is in disregarding history.
Already, Peter had exercised his supreme authority in the upper room before Pentecost to have Judas’ place filled. At the first Apostolic Council of Jerusalem Peter settled the heated discussion over circumcising the gentiles and “the whole assembly fell silent” (Acts 15:7-12). Paul made sure that his ministry to the gentiles was recognised by, Peter (Gal 1:I8).
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Hawkiz
Guest
Well, I care because I want all of humankind to see the face of G-d. I care because you are Catholic, therefore I care what you believe and don’t believe. I care because I think it is important to spread Truth (Jesus). I care out of love for you. If I presented a post to you in any other fashion, I am truly sorry. If I came across as judgmental, or harsh, I apologize. Sometimes tone is lost in posts. My tone was and is calm, non-judgmental and loving today (assuming based on your post that it wasn’t yesterday.
You are correct to say that The Lord offers His mercy and love to us all. Not everyone accepts. Not everyone accepts fully.
You are correct that we are created to love and serve Him, and He desires for us to spend eternity with Him face to face. You are further correct to say that he’ll is the absence of seeing Him face to face.
I would caution you to be very careful with your language in saying things like ‘if we have done our best to live a good life.’ I think I know where you are going with that in the context of this discussion, but it can sound to some to be dangerously close to ‘earning’ our salvation. The Church has never taught that we can earn our salvation, and has fought against this as heresy many times over the centuries. I am not accusing you of this here and now, again, giving you credit through context, but simply living a good life is not enough to spend eternity with The Lord.
I would also caution you about ‘there are many paths to Heaven’. This simply isn’t the case, and neither Scripture nor the Church says this…there is only One path to Heaven, and it is through Jesus. (No one comes to the Father but through Me).
I would ask again: can you refute the concept of a state of cleansing happening before entering Heaven? The Church has always taught that some are cleansed and their sins appropriated for while here on earth (which is something you stated correctly can happen). But She has also taught (and Scripture supports) that not everyone fully repents and fully rectifies for their sins during their earthly life. In short, you are not wrong to hold to the idea that a state of purgation isn’t ‘required’ for all after death…but you would be mistaken to hold that therefore no one experiences this state of cleansing. It is really a state of humility for us to believe in the need to cleansing after death, and I’m sure you would agree that humility is a large part of ‘living a good life’ in Christ. So I don’t know that the concept of Purgatory needs to be such a road block for you…since all those in the state of cleansing will see Him face to face, and it isn’t a ‘second chance’ as some would say ( I haven’t seen you make this claim, so I hope you don’t view it that way either), and since you are already mostly right in that it is possible to repent and atone for all sins while here on earth, I am struggling to see where exactly the problem you have with the concept lies…which is why I asked for you to give us a better understanding of ‘why’ you believe it doesn’t exist?
We want to help you see all of the Truth because we love you Emily. We don’t want to ‘win’ the discussion for any other reason. You have a good and firm grasp of the Sacraments and how they can bring us closer to Him, and we would want you to have a similar good and firm grasp of how Purgatory can provide the same level of closeness. Is that fair?
Peace in Christ
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Emily2014
Guest
Dear Hawkiz,
Very sorry if I gave a wrong impression in my response to your post.
I sincerely appreciate your concern for me and the gentleness implicit in your posts.
Your Faith is strong and for that I honour you. Equally, I respect your views and your total acceptance of all that the Church teaches.
Please don’t worry that purgatory will never be a credible concept for me, as it totally conflicts with my perception of the eternal Mercy and Love of Our Blessed Lord.
God bless you and thank you for your posts.
Very sorry if I gave a wrong impression in my response to your post.
I sincerely appreciate your concern for me and the gentleness implicit in your posts.
Your Faith is strong and for that I honour you. Equally, I respect your views and your total acceptance of all that the Church teaches.
Please don’t worry that purgatory will never be a credible concept for me, as it totally conflicts with my perception of the eternal Mercy and Love of Our Blessed Lord.
God bless you and thank you for your posts.
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Erich
Guest
If I throw a rock and break your window (sin) – then ask your forgiveness (as we do in confession) – you forgive me (as Christians should, and as God does in confession),
But… the broken window still needs to be fixed!
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JWH123
Guest
Saying there is still a price to be paid after one confesses is supposition. Absolution which comes from the Priest comes from the same root as “absolute” which means your slate is completely wiped clean. You confess, get absolved, and the absolution is effective once you do your Penance as prescribed. Remember, the vagrant crucified next to Jesus confessed to Jesus and was told “this day you will be with me in paradise.” He didn’t have to make reparations on earth for all the people he hurt or all the money he stole. He confessed, Jesus absolved him, he died, and went straight to Heaven. The key is that he didn’t commit any more sins between the time of absolution and his death (he only lived another couple minutes and wasn’t in any position to do anything bad since he was hanging on a cross).
That being said, the Catholic Church does not, never has, and never will teach the concept of future absolution. Going to Confession today will not get you off the hook for the sin you will commit tomorrow. That’s where I believe Purgatory comes in as vital. Are you assured that you are going to die immediately after Confession without committing another sin in between? Of course you aren’t, unless you kill yourself and that would be a sin in itself. Most likely, you (and I) will die with venial sin on our soul. Having a soul stained by venial sin means no straight trip to Heaven, as Revelation is pretty darn clear about that. If our soul is stained by sin, we DESERVE to go to Hell. But because God loves us, His grace allows there to be Purgatory, where the stain of sin is purged from our souls–and then we are worthy of Heaven.
Yes, over the years people have misrepresented the nature of Purgatory tremendously, to the point where Protestants think we are dumb for acknowledging its existence. It’s not some second chance at salvation, and its not a place of hopeless agony. It’s simply the opportunity to do Penance for those sins we weren’t able to confess while we were alive. Penance must be paid to be absolved from sin, Purgatory is where it happens for those sins between our last confession and death.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
The word “Trinity” might not be “directly stated” in the bible but the Trinity is much more than “implied” in the bible.
What about “Baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”?
Not the only place that the “Members” of the Trinity are spoken of in the bible.
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