Is Purgatory in the bible

[JohnR77]

Please don’t worry that purgatory will never be a credible concept for me, as it totally conflicts with my perception of the eternal Mercy and Love of Our Blessed Lord.
.

If you have a plan where you can save yourself, then your theology may appear consistent. However, if you are looking to Jesus to be your Savior, then you need to define love according to Him and what He reveals. His revelation must define your perceptions.

If I were successful in really explaining Catholic concept of what that word means you would wish that “Purgatory” could be true. Now, I make what must seem as an outlandish statement to you because Purgatory – as correctly understood by Catholic teaching – is very beautiful, and it is a deep expression of God’s tender love for us. It shows the power of God’s grace in a deeper and more profound way than what the world would have if Purgatory were not true.

**SAINT CATHERINE OF GENOA
Treatise on Purgatory **
The souls who are in Purgatory cannot, as I understand, choose but be there, and this is by God’s ordinance who therein has done justly.

I believe no happiness can be found worthy to be compared with that of a soul in Purgatory except that of the saints in Paradise; and day by day this happiness grows as God flows into these souls, more and more as the hindrance to His entrance is consumed. Sin’s rust is the hindrance, and the fire burns the rust away so that more and more the soul opens itself up to the divine inflowing. A thing which is covered cannot respond to the sun’s rays, not because of any defect in the sun, which is shining all the time, but because the cover is an obstacle; if the cover be burnt away, this thing is open to the sun; more and more as the cover is consumed does it respond to the rays of the sun

It is in this way that rust, which is sin, covers souls, and in Purgatory is burnt away by fire; the more it is consumed, the more do the souls respond to God, the true sun. As the rust lessens and the soul is opened up to the divine ray, happiness grows; until the time be accomplished the one wanes and the other waxes. Pain however does not lessen but only the time for which pain is endured. As for will: never can the souls say these pains are pains, so contented are they with God’s ordaining with which, in pure charity, their will is united.

But, on the other hand, they endure a pain so extreme that no tongue can be found to tell it, nor could the mind understand its least pang if God by special grace did not shew so much. Which least pang God of His grace shewed to this Soul, but with her tongue she cannot say what it is. This sight which the Lord revealed to me has never since left my mind and I will tell what I can of it. They will understand whose mind God deigns to open.

Question:
Does what the Bible teach about suffering agree with your “perception of truth” ?

defendingthebride.com/mc/sufferb.html

Where exactly does Purgatory come from. I have heard that it is not mentioned in the bible, but that it suggest a place where we are cleansed of our sins before we can get to Heaven is. Can somebody tell me where in the bible it can be found? Thank you.

see it here

defendingthebride.com/sc/purgatory.html

web.archive.org/web/20030308201602/http://www.americancatholictruthsociety.com/purgatory.htm
.

 

[Erich]

I would say that Jesus, God-Incarnate, is our Saviour, not baptism.

And Jesus, God-Incarnate, our Savior, commanded baptism.

1 Peter 3:21, “Baptism…now saves you…”

Titus 3:4-7, “…but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of His own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.”

And what is the “washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit”? Baptism. John 3:5, “…unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” Baptism. What happens in all 4 accounts of Jesus’ baptism (John 1:31-34; Luke 3:21-22; Mark 1:9-11; Matt 3:16-17)? After Jesus is baptized with water, the Holy Spirit descends upon Him. Water and the Spirit…Baptism.

As far as “baptism”, you have heard the phrase “One Baptism for the forgiveness of sin/s”, haven’t you?

Baptism takes away the sin inherited from Adam (original sin) and any actual sins we personally committed up to the time we are baptized. What baptism does not take away are any sins committed after baptism; that’s what the Sacrament of Reconciliation is for.

When the Apostles asked Jesus concerning, “Who can be saved?”, Jesus responded, “With man it is impossible, with God ALL things are possible”, something else that I would consider ponderable material.

So… a Christian *could *commit grave sins and still remain saved? Sin does not injure one’s relationship with God at all?

There isn’t really much to ponder here. The answer to both of these questions, of course, is “no”. There is sin that can destroy the divine life within the soul - mortal sin.

Yes, all things are possible – but that doesn’t mean that they are definite (or even probable). God does not compel us to do anything – and He certainly does not compel us to sin. There is plenty of sin in the world… but that’s not God’s doing, that’s ours.

 

[PJM]

=Tom Baum;12386141]Jesus is the One Who reportedly said, “Today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Do you think that He meant what He said or something else?

If something else, do you have a clue, what that might have been?

If Jesus meant what He said, are you saying that the “Paradise” that Jesus spoke of is something other than heaven?

“Hi Tom” again

Jesus meant what he said; just not “right now.” {Immediately}

We can know this because a primary cause and effect of the Incarnation/ Resurrection was the WORLD’S Redemption. By which is meant in part; that the gate of Heaven which was locked due to the sins of Adam and Eve

Gen 3:18-19 " 18 Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee, and thou shalt eat the herbs of the earth. 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return"

Death had not been a part of God’s Desire or original plan. AND it’s introduction is both physical and spiritual. {Heaven Hell & Purgatory} all result form God’s necessary Justice.
BUT because of the sin; man would have to PROVE by their life choices, which God would affirm for them. AND heaven itself was for a time {until the Resurrection} was taken of the option list.

Those Souls who merited Heaven prior to the Resurrection were placed in a place called the Limbo of the Fathers. It was a place of no suffering or wants BUT did not include the Beatific Vision {seeing God}.

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[PJM]

=Tom Baum;12399089]I would say that Jesus, God-Incarnate, is our Saviour, not baptism.

As far as “baptism”, you have heard the phrase “One Baptism for the forgiveness of sin/s”, haven’t you?

Jesus kinda made a point out of it being important that John baptize Him, could there be more there than meets the eye of some?

Sometimes God does things right in front of us and we do not see, just as it is written, “You have ears but do not hear, you have eyes but do not see”.

I am claiming that God is God and we ain’t and that, ultimately, it is in God’s Hands.

Some seem to think that “God’s Will” is meaningless.

I think that it is definitely something to ponder, that it is “GOD’S WILL THAT ALL BE SAVED”.

When the Apostles asked Jesus concerning, “Who can be saved?”, Jesus responded, “With man it is impossible, with God ALL things are possible”, something else that I would consider ponderable material.

Jesus even taught us to pray: “…Thy Kingdom come, Thy WILL be done…”, “Thy” referring to God, ever thought that besides being a prayer, that which is referred to as the “Lord’s Prayer” has much to ponder?

I have heard that some of the “desert fathers” spent their whole lives contemplating the first two words, “OUR FATHER”, of the Lord’s Prayer, I don’t know if this is a fact but it very well could be.

“OUR”, as in humanity’s, “Father” as in Dad, everyone who ever was, is or will be’s Dad.

Tom, my friend,

If I may add a bit of information.

We certainly are NOT God, but that said Gen. 1: 26-27 make clear that we ARE Created in the very “image” of God. HOW does man do that and WHY?

Man emulates God’s attributes of a mind, intellect and freewill {ALL to a far lesser degree than God; but sufficient for the purpose for which we have ALONE been given the gifts}

Each of these GIFTS like God Himself are Spiritual Realities and immortal. AND each of these gifts are permanently attached to man’s Soul; also a Spiritual Reality and the part of us that will FACE God’s Judgment.

That’s the How; here’s the WHY:
Isaiah 43 verses 7 & 21 “7 And every one that calleth upon my name, I have created him for my glory. I have formed him, and made him. & This people have I formed for myself, they shall shew forth my praise.”

Because of ALL Created things in the Universe, man ALONE is enable to know, love, obey and serve God IF MAN chooses to do so. The decision is man’s because God gives to man “Perfect Love” and desires “perfect love” be returned to him. In order for man to “love perfectly” man must respond freely to this desire of God’s.

So that is why man is created in God’s very image: to choose
Duet. 30:19 " I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Choose therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live"

God Bless,
patrick

 

[Duane1966]

A couple of points. Just because Jesus says "today you will be with Me in paradise does not prove for or against the concept of Purgatory. He’s God. He can choose to take a soul straight to Heaven and bypass Purgatory. Or in my case, not.

It is clear from Jesus’ teachings that ALL are not saved. I will leave you with two, though there are many more.

The Narrow Gate.
13**“Enter through the narrow gate;**for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.
j14How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.

The True Disciple.
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,*but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
n22Many will say to me on that day,o‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?
’p23Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you.**Depart from me, you evildoers.’q

 

[Chudyie]

I’m sorry, but purgatory is not real! Many people that believe it exists are just using their belief in it as an excuse to sin a little, but have a safety net! GOD wants us to choose HIM. Did not GOD say that people who are lukewarm will be vomited from his mouth? If the Lord HIMSELF said this why would there be a purgatory.

OK, wait! you’re probably a person who COMPLETELY believes and follows the teachings of Jesus Christ and have NO intention to knowingly sin at expect purgatory to be your safety net. You might have asked this question because you wonder what will happen to your soul if you follow GOD all your life but do accidental sins, like daily sins we do.

LISTEN! A person who believes in GOD truly with all their heart and the promises HE MADE will avoid all these temptations and even if you accidentally sinned (i.e, said OMG, or checked out a girl or guy) you are able to repent to GOD of that act and try to refine your spirit so you can avoid situations like those. YOU CANNOT stop sinning, because all we’ve known our whole lives is this world and our flesh. Deciding to let GOD refine your Spirit are the step we take in order to always be ready to die in HIM.

 

[Erich]

I’m sorry, but purgatory is not real!

And I’m sorry, but the content of your (three and counting) posts certainly appears to contradict your claim that you’re Catholic.

First of all, nowhere does Catholic teaching describe Purgatory as a “safety net.” Purgatory is, according to official Church teaching: “A state of final purification after death.” Only those who die in a state of grace but who are not yet perfect, would ever be in Purgatory. There is no “second chance” in Purgatory. What you do in life, before you die, decides your eternal fate. (See paragraphs 1030-1032 of the Catechism.)

 

[Duane1966]

I’m sorry, but purgatory is not real! Many people that believe it exists are just using their belief in it as an excuse to sin a little, but have a safety net! GOD wants us to choose HIM. Did not GOD say that people who are lukewarm will be vomited from his mouth? If the Lord HIMSELF said this why would there be a purgatory.

OK, wait! you’re probably a person who COMPLETELY believes and follows the teachings of Jesus Christ and have NO intention to knowingly sin at expect purgatory to be your safety net. You might have asked this question because you wonder what will happen to your soul if you follow GOD all your life but do accidental sins, like daily sins we do.

LISTEN! A person who believes in GOD truly with all their heart and the promises HE MADE will avoid all these temptations and even if you accidentally sinned (i.e, said OMG, or checked out a girl or guy) you are able to repent to GOD of that act and try to refine your spirit so you can avoid situations like those. YOU CANNOT stop sinning, because all we’ve known our whole lives is this world and our flesh. Deciding to let GOD refine your Spirit are the step we take in order to always be ready to die in HIM.

Hmmmm. I can believe what many Saints and the Church have said about Purgatory. Or I can believe what you say.

Believe me it’s a tough choice.

 

[Duane1966]

Good link on Purgatory.

catholicnewsagency.com/resources/apologetics/purgatory/purgatory-the-purifying-fire/

 

[zz912]

I’m sorry, but purgatory is not real! Many people that believe it exists are just using their belief in it as an excuse to sin a little, but have a safety net! GOD wants us to choose HIM. Did not GOD say that people who are lukewarm will be vomited from his mouth? If the Lord HIMSELF said this why would there be a purgatory.

OK, wait! you’re probably a person who COMPLETELY believes and follows the teachings of Jesus Christ and have NO intention to knowingly sin at expect purgatory to be your safety net. You might have asked this question because you wonder what will happen to your soul if you follow GOD all your life but do accidental sins, like daily sins we do.

LISTEN! A person who believes in GOD truly with all their heart and the promises HE MADE will avoid all these temptations and even if you accidentally sinned (i.e, said OMG, or checked out a girl or guy) you are able to repent to GOD of that act and try to refine your spirit so you can avoid situations like those. YOU CANNOT stop sinning, because all we’ve known our whole lives is this world and our flesh. Deciding to let GOD refine your Spirit are the step we take in order to always be ready to die in HIM.

Places other than Heaven, earth, and hell are EXPLICITLY talked about in the Bible. The Church that Jesus built proclaims that Purgatory is real. And the Tradition of the Christian faith has always proclaimed it.

So why should I listen to your flawed opinion over the authorititative declarations of the Church, Scripture and Tradition?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Tom, my friend,

If I may add a bit of information.

We certainly are NOT God, but that said Gen. 1: 26-27 make clear that we ARE Created in the very “image” of God. HOW does man do that and WHY?

Man emulates God’s attributes of a mind, intellect and freewill {ALL to a far lesser degree than God; but sufficient for the purpose for which we have ALONE been given the gifts}

Each of these GIFTS like God Himself are Spiritual Realities and immortal. AND each of these gifts are permanently attached to man’s Soul; also a Spiritual Reality and the part of us that will FACE God’s Judgment.

That’s the How; here’s the WHY:
Isaiah 43 verses 7 & 21 “7 And every one that calleth upon my name, I have created him for my glory. I have formed him, and made him. & This people have I formed for myself, they shall shew forth my praise.”

Because of ALL Created things in the Universe, man ALONE is enable to know, love, obey and serve God IF MAN chooses to do so. The decision is man’s because God gives to man “Perfect Love” and desires “perfect love” be returned to him. In order for man to “love perfectly” man must respond freely to this desire of God’s.

So that is why man is created in God’s very image: to choose
Duet. 30:19 " I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Choose therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live"

God Bless,
patrick

God Is a Being of Love and I believe that that is the “Image” that we are made in and I also believe that any time that Love shines thru us, that is God shining thru us.

Irregardless of whatever our beliefs are, when Love shines thru us, God shines thru us.

 

[Emily2014]

God Is a Being of Love and I believe that that is the “Image” that we are made in and I also believe that any time that Love shines thru us, that is God shining thru us.

Irregardless of whatever our beliefs are, when Love shines thru us, God shines thru us.

That is one of the most beautiful posts I’ve read since joining this forum.
Thank you Tom and God bless you.

 

[raoul1951]

Where exactly does Purgatory come from. I have heard that it is not mentioned in the bible, but that it suggest a place where we are cleansed of our sins before we can get to Heaven is. Can somebody tell me where in the bible it can be found? Thank you.

Purgatory is mentioned in these verses, as they provide a time limit for ones time in (Isa 66:23 ASV) And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith Jehovah.

(Isa 66:24 ASV) And they shall go forth, and look upon the dead bodies of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

What is not mentioned is a place of eternal damnation.

 

[PJM]

=Tom Baum;12411719]God Is a Being of Love and I believe that that is the “Image” that we are made in and I also believe that any time that Love shines thru us, that is God shining thru us.

Irregardless of whatever our beliefs are, when Love shines thru us, God shines thru us.

Tom if that were realistic why was there 55 MILLION world wide abortions last year?

Man emulates God by having been give Spiritual Attributes like God’s BUT far less perfect and advanced. Namely a mind, intellect and freewill which ARE attached to our Souls, and LIKE GOD are Spiritual and immortal.

Certainly man is to attempt to also emulate God by lovng others as He Loves us. In deed if one were asked to describe the entire messahe of the bible ina SINGLE word; I think that WORD would be “Love!”

God Bless Tom,

Patrick

 

[Tom_Baum]

Tom if that were realistic why was there 55 MILLION world wide abortions last year?

Man emulates God by having been give Spiritual Attributes like God’s BUT far less perfect and advanced. Namely a mind, intellect and freewill which ARE attached to our Souls, and LIKE GOD are Spiritual and immortal.

Certainly man is to attempt to also emulate God by lovng others as He Loves us. In deed if one were asked to describe the entire messahe of the bible ina SINGLE word; I think that WORD would be “Love!”

God Bless Tom,

Patrick

You wrote, “Tom if that were realistic why was there 55 MILLION world wide abortions last year?”

The “realistic” that I believe you are speaking of is that which I wrote:

"God Is a Being of Love and I believe that that is the “Image” that we are made in and I also believe that any time that Love shines thru us, that is God shining thru us.

Irregardless of whatever our beliefs are, when Love shines thru us, God shines thru us."

Why do you think that “55 MILLION world wide abortions last year”, would make what I wrote unrealistic?

I did NOT say that the “Image”, (LOVE), that we are made in is constantly shining thru all of us all of the time, did I?

As far as, "In deed if one were asked to describe the entire messahe of the bible ina SINGLE word; I think that WORD would be “Love!”

I agree and I think/believe that since God Is a Being of Love as opposed to Love being merely an attribute of God, that word could be either God or Love since They are One and the Same.

You also wrote, “Man emulates God by having been give Spiritual Attributes like God’s BUT far less perfect and advanced. Namely a mind, intellect and freewill which ARE attached to our Souls,”

I believe that we have been endowed with some of the “attributes” of God but as far as “being made in the Image of God”, I believe that Image is of the very Essence of God which Is Love.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You wrote, "Saying “God wills EVERYONE to be saved” is not even close to the same as saying “EVERYONE will be saved.” "

I am not the first to say “God wills EVERYONE to be saved”, it was said and written in the bible, I just copied it out of there, and I happen to think that it is nice that it is God’s Will that All be saved and since God-Incarnate asked us to pray “…Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done…”, I, personally, would rather pray for God’s Will to be done than anyone else’s will, especially, concerning this.

You also wrote, “Just because God wills (i.e. wishes or desires) something doesn’t mean it’s going to happen that way.”

Pretty much in the same vein that you wrote concerning what is written about God’s Will, someone else once said to me, “It is only God’s Will”.

It was God’s Will that Mary say YES and she did and since it is “God’s Will that ALL be saved”, maybe the “least” that we can do is at least pray for it as God-Incarnate asked us to do.

I happen to believe that what Jesus did on the cross is for more than those that were already the “elect”.

Of course I believe that, ultimately, ALL ARE SAVED.

I happen to believe that God “won” a TOTAL VICTORY on the cross and in that TOTAL VICTORY is a TOTAL DEFEAT for satan.

By the way, “many” in the bible can also mean ALL just as a “thousand” in the bible can also mean “unlimited”.

Ever thought that Christianity might be about more than the “individual” getting to the “good place”?

Jesus supposedly died for us and extended the invitation to “Come follow Me”, ever thought that Jesus was asking us to “die for others” rather than to just get to the “good place” ourself?

Jesus did say that “there was work to be done”, didn’t He?

Tom-

Are you saying that no one will ever go to hell because all will be saved?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Tom-

Are you saying that no one will ever go to hell because all will be saved?

Actually what I am saying is that some will go to hell, as a matter of fact, I say that Jesus went to hell.

Jesus did say, …and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It", didn’t He?

Jesus summed up the whole “mission” of His Church with these few words.

Jesus went to hell, actually to everyone’s hell, for ALL of us.

What I have said, many, many times is that All will, ultimately, be with God in God’s Kingdom, Jesus Is the Saviour of ALL.

 

[Techno2000]

Actually what I am saying is that some will go to hell, as a matter of fact, I say that Jesus went to hell.

Jesus did say, …and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It", didn’t He?

Jesus summed up the whole “mission” of His Church with these few words.

Jesus went to hell, actually to everyone’s hell, for ALL of us.

What I have said, many, many times is that All will, ultimately, be with God in God’s Kingdom, Jesus Is the Saviour of ALL.

jesus-passion.com/THE_PASSION6.htm#CHAPTER%20LIX

 

[Randy_Carson]

Actually what I am saying is that some will go to hell, as a matter of fact, I say that Jesus went to hell.

Jesus did say, …and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It", didn’t He?

Jesus summed up the whole “mission” of His Church with these few words.

Jesus went to hell, actually to everyone’s hell, for ALL of us.

What I have said, many, many times is that All will, ultimately, be with God in God’s Kingdom, Jesus Is the Saviour of ALL.

Ah, universal salvation.

Okay, I understand you now.

Jesus descended to the Limbo of the Fathers (a.k.a. Abraham’s Bosom) to release those noble souls who had died prior to His own death upon the cross.

He did not descend into Gehenna, the fiery depths of the underworld reserved for the demons and the damned.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Ah, universal salvation.

Okay, I understand you now.

Jesus descended to the Limbo of the Fathers (a.k.a. Abraham’s Bosom) to release those noble souls who had died prior to His own death upon the cross.

He did not descend into Gehenna, the fiery depths of the underworld reserved for the demons and the damned.

So are you saying that the “price of sin” is NOT death?

Are you also saying that the “price of sin” is NOT hell?