Is smacking a child always morally wrong?

[Melchior]

Interesting and clever sidestep. Patronizing too. You find me amusing and I find you almost frightening.

Still I ask again:

"I can’t imagine what constitutes “nice and successful” in your mind if the adults aren’t taking the time to practice simple teaching of obedience and safety to their children. No teaching? Forget the spanking. NO teaching??? Reprehensible. How are they nice or successful?"

(Incidentally, teaching has nothing to do with physical force unless maybe you’re training animals: dogs, horses, cats … etc.)

Sorry but your response to something I never said and baseless assumptions were what was patronizing and frightening. You build up a bogeyman in your head instead of actually responding to what someone actually wrote and then you critique your own bogeyman.

I answered you thoroughly, you apparently, just want to argue a point and have no interest in my answer.

What makes you an expert on animal training, btw? And by what authority do you compare loving parents disciplining their children to animal training? That is completely condescending and an insult to most parents who have ever lived.

It is this hippy generation mentality that is truly frightening and has created a generation of little monsters. I will trust the wisdom of thousands of years of godly parents than the opinion of the experimental, “me” generation and their untested wisdom of one generation rebelling against all the previous ones. Whose ideas have produced mostrous results and grossly immoral and amoral young adults.

I am sorry that you find only the 60’s generation of child-rearing to be the only acceptable one. And I am certain will ignore my answer and lecture me on how frightening my traditional, normal Christian ideas of parenting are because I happen to love my children enough to discipline them. Frightening indeed.

 

[catharina]

You and I are using “spanking” and “pat on the bottom” in the same way I think. Respectfully, I think most people think of spanking as a pat on the bottom. You seem to pour a aggressive meaning into it that is not intended not commonly understood.

You also seem to confuse adult psychology and situations with parent/child relaitonship. They are not the same. Children do not react to minor physical pain from the authority over them (Dad or Mom) in a context of teaching right from wrong or how not to do something dangerous in a manner that is equal to an adult being abused by their spouse, they are two different things. Children know instinctively that parents have a duty to them and children who are properly disciplined know they are loved. Spankings will be very rare because done right, a child will know better.

I am glad you have had good success with out ever patting your children on the bottom but that is hardly the norm. In addition to being the father of three, I have five sisters and a huge extended family and those who were disciplined (spanking to cause a minor sting not violent beating) and those who were not is obvious among my dozens of nephews and nieces. I wonder how you dealt with a 2 year old doing something phsyically dangerous with showing them that they can get hurt? Toddlers do not listen to a stern talking to or a time out. Neither gives them any sense of consequences nor are such things remembered at that age.

Recently, a relative with a son, almost 7 who is a nice little boy but has never been disciplined by spanking dissapeared at their beach house for about 2 hours. He was found okay playing in the water. Thank God. This is typical for him and his younger brother and cousins, all time out and stern talking to kids. They learn nothing and almost tragedies are routine with this family. I am not bragging at all, just noting the difference between traditional vs. Dr. Spock parenting, but my child who is the same age is shocked at the danger her cousins get in and that they do not listen to their parents at all. The reason is obvious, they did not learn the idea of consequences at an earllier age. There parents are the adult version. They grew up the same and are nice successful people. But they are also immoral and irresponsible because they don’t believe in real consequences. From drugs to sexual immorality to abortions and birth control. They never grew up in a certain way and it reflects in their lives.

(continued)

Mel

I beg to differ with you. You do judge some adults as “nice and succesful people” (see bolded above in YOUR quote) so I ask by what standard? They earn plenty of bucks? They dress well and don’t burp in public? What is nice and successful in your view but also immoral? You make little sense to me other than a kneejerk reaction of personal defensiveness that says “I hit my little children because I can and have no ideas for alternatives.”

I was raised in the 1940s and 1950s by parents who didn’t spank. They raised eight of us. The next generation (our own children) are fully grown too and are quite moral. My son is 33 yrs old today. He married in the Church (his and her one and only marriage) one year ago. So, please contain your imagination about me, if you possibly can, and answer my question What value system do you use when calling people “nice and successful?”

 

[catharina]

Sorry but your response to something I never said and baseless assumptions were what was patronizing and frightening. You build up a bogeyman in your head instead of actually responding to what someone actually wrote and then you critique your own bogeyman.

I answered you thoroughly, you apparently, just want to argue a point and have no interest in my answer.

What makes you an expert on animal training, btw? And by what authority do you compare loving parents disciplining their children to animal training? That is completely condescending and an insult to most parents who have ever lived.

It is this hippy generation mentality that is truly frightening and has created a generation of little monsters. I will trust the wisdom of thousands of years of godly parents than the opinion of the experimental, “me” generation and their untested wisdom of one generation rebelling against all the previous ones. Whose ideas have produced mostrous results and grossly immoral and amoral young adults.

I am sorry that you find only the 60’s generation of child-rearing to be the only acceptable one. And I am certain will ignore my answer and lecture me on how frightening my traditional, normal Christian ideas of parenting are because I happen to love my children enough to discipline them. Frightening indeed.

… and again, because you are denying you said something that you did say, as posted (again) by me above:

I beg to differ with you. You do judge some adults as “nice and succesful people” (see bolded above in YOUR own quote, posted in # 103) so I ask by what standard? They earn plenty of bucks? They dress well and don’t burp in public? What is nice and successful in your view but also immoral? You make little sense to me other than a kneejerk reaction of personal defensiveness that says “I hit my little children because I can and have no ideas for alternatives.”

I was raised in the 1940s and 1950s by parents who didn’t spank. They raised eight of us. The next generation (our own children) are fully grown too and are quite moral. My son is 33 yrs old today. He married in the Church (his and her one and only marriage) one year ago. So, please contain your imagination about me, if you possibly can, and answer my question What value system do you use when calling people “nice and successful?” I have to guess that high horse you’re sitting on will one day throw you to the ground.

 

[catharina]

melchior, so far, by denying you said something that you actually said, and by attacking me based on your own imaginings, you’ve done a very good job of discrediting your own opinions.

 

[Melchior]

… and again, because you are denying you said something that you did say, as posted (again) by me above:

I beg to differ with you. You do judge some adults as “nice and succesful people” (see bolded above in YOUR own quote, posted in # 103) so I ask by what standard? They earn plenty of bucks? They dress well and don’t burp in public? What is nice and successful in your view but also immoral? You make little sense to me other than a kneejerk reaction of personal defensiveness that says “I hit my little children because I can and have no ideas for alternatives.”

I was raised in the 1940s and 1950s by parents who didn’t spank. They raised eight of us. The next generation (our own children) are fully grown too and are quite moral. My son is 33 yrs old today. He married in the Church (his and her one and only marriage) one year ago. So, please contain your imagination about me, if you possibly can, and answer my question What value system do you use when calling people “nice and successful?” I have to guess that high horse you’re sitting on will one day throw you to the ground.

If you read what I wrote in context I was speaking of those who never disciplined their children who say their children are successful and my question was how do they define success? So why don’t you answer my question first instead of answering my question with the same question. I am happy your kids turned good despite lack of discipline. They are the exception, not the rule. As the youngest of 9 myself I I can look at my siblings (the five oldest whose dad abandoned them and were left without appriopriate fatherly discipline and the younger ones who did have proper discipline and the difference is quite apparent even with the newer generations. I guess you are pretty blessed because my siblings who parented in your experimental style had children with far greater issues growing up than my siblings whose kids had discipline. Sure they are all “okay” now but a lot of heart ache and bad decision making could have been avoided if the learned what they should have learned when they were young.

Again I just love when invisible people on the internet say I was the perfect parent, I just chatted with my toddlers and they obeyed and did everything I said. I am sure that is how it went. It is cool that your there is no original sin in your family.

“I hit my little children because I can and have no ideas for alternatives.”

That is just a stupid thing to say. I discipline my children because I love them. There are plenty of alternatives. I go with the one that is time honored and true. My mother taught me well.

It is ironic that the worst in social change was brought on by your generation. You are simply reflecting that rebellious, I can do it better from scratch attitude that is so typical and has brought almost nothing good with it for society. You need to really examine your boomer values and perhaps look to scripture and the entire human race that you condemn.

I am not judging you for not spanking, but this self righteous garbage gets so old. My wife spends every week with a group of 60 homeschooled kids and the behavior of those who are corporally disciplined verses those who give time outs is very apparent. The disciplined kids come when they are called, usually the first time. Those who have to be called about 20 times are nearly always those who share you views of parenting. I have been preached at many times about these superior methods that I have seen fail time and again. So why don’t you actually tell us what you would actually do in real life instead of condescending little speaches about “talking” and “teaching” as if we don’t already do that. What do you teach? Give us specific alternatives if you are going to judge us.

(continued)

 

[Melchior]

…(continued from above)

I would seriously love to know what brilliant method of dealing with a 2 year old who does not listen is. Please help me out if you are really concerned. I want my children to obey me, for their own good and safety and to listen when I call out to them, say when they are in immediate danger. What conversation would you have with a two year old who is about to get injured and you are not close enough to do anything but call out? I seriously want to know.

And please stop projecting and contain your imagination about me. You can justify your own ideas all you want but I have never met anyone who preached like you do and seen it actually work in reality. I have seen what most of us do work consistently by those who are thougthful about it.

So please tell me how you would teach a two year old how to not run out into traffic if you are distracted for 7 seconds? How would you deal with little cousin Johnny, who I mentioned before, who was playing in the ocean and got a stern talking to (and he does such things routinely - despite how conscientious his parents are with talking to him about such things and discussing the dangers). I am all ears.

And please actually read my whole post before responding to whatever condemnation you have floating around in your head that you want to beat us up with (no pun intended).

Btw, do you think sacred scripture is wrong when it admonishes parents to not “spare the rod”? Are you more wise than the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God?

Mel

 

[Melchior]

melchior, so far, by denying you said something that you actually said, and by attacking me based on your own imaginings, you’ve done a very good job of discrediting your own opinions.

You show me where I said “Don’t teach your child”. Or where I suggested anything like that. You discredit yourself by making things up. So please quote where I said anything similar to that if not stop bearing false witness. Lying to prove a point is a sin. Lying is a sin period. That is something I teach my children.

 

[catharina]

Hey, fellow, I’m going to give you lots of time to crawl back up and out of your pit of personal rage. (Now I more clearly understand why small children won’t listen to you.) You seem to be a bit of a rage-aholic, way beyond the normal parent. Self-justification can be an amazing mirror of the soul. I get it you’re Right - and those who disagree with you are wrong. I bet your children are onto that attitude while they’re still very young.

Would that I were a perfect parent. I’m not. Who is?

I’m not a Boomer either “sweetie.” I was born before they came along. There’s not a reason in the world why I should believe you would listen to a single example of good parenting (without physical force) from me at this time. Get it?

Anyone who believes that a two-year-old can be left without supervision for even seven seconds is 100% clueless about parenting, IMO.

 

[catharina]

If you ever feel like expalining what you mean by the following, do continue, please:

"(Their) parents are the adult version. They grew up the same and are nice successful people. But they are also immoral and irresponsible … "

Nice
Successful
Immoral
Irresponsible

Do tell …

 

[catharina]

You show me where I said “Don’t teach your child”. Or where I suggested anything like that. You discredit yourself by making things up. So please quote where I said anything similar to that if not stop bearing false witness. Lying to prove a point is a sin. Lying is a sin period. That is something I teach my children.

Mr. Dude, before we move on to your question (and yes, I’ll need exact quotes), do answer mine, ok?

"If you ever feel like expalining what you mean by the following, do continue, please:

"(Their) parents are the adult version. They grew up the same and are nice successful people. But they are also immoral and irresponsible … "

Nice
Successful
Immoral
Irresponsible

Do tell … "

 

[Melchior]

Hey, fellow, I’m going to give you lots of time to crawl back up and out of your pit of personal rage. (Now I more clearly understand why small children won’t listen to you.) You seem to be a bit of a rage-aholic, way beyond the normal parent. Self-justification can be an amazing mirror of the soul. I get it you’re Right - and those who disagree with you are wrong. I bet your children are onto that attitude while they’re still very young.

If someone disagrees with you is this what always do? Make ridiculus ad hominem attacks based on absolutely nothing? I can see that you are not interested in a reasonable discussion, you just want to tell people how awful they are. You talk of rage? Have you ever heard of projection?

My wife just looked over my shoulder and saw your description of me and laughed out loud.

Would that I were a perfect parent. I’m not. Who is?

Just better than the rest of us apparently. I take advise on parenting all the time. Have you ever?

I’m not a Boomer either “sweetie.” I was born before they came along. There’s not a reason in the world why I should believe you would listen to a single example of good parenting (without physical force) from me at this time. Get it?

Yes, we just hang around all day beating our children. It makes me feel very manly.

Anyone who believes that a two-year-old can be left without supervision for even seven seconds is 100% clueless about parenting, IMO.

Coming from a family of 8 you should know better. I suppose your mother had 8 sets of eyes at all times? Please don’t be so patronizing. But I guess you are the perfect parent.

 

[Melchior]

Mr. Dude, before we move on to your question (and yes, I’ll need exact quotes), do answer mine, ok?

"If you ever feel like expalining what you mean by the following, do continue, please:

"(Their) parents are the adult version. They grew up the same and are nice successful people. But they are also immoral and irresponsible … "

Nice
Successful
Immoral
Irresponsible

Do tell … "

I am not going to indulge you when you lied and are not either apologizing for it or at least correcting yourself. You put words in my mouth, why don’t we start with a little intregrity and respect first?

But honestly, this is pointless you are not a person intested in anything but raging against those you disagree with to make yourself feel better about who knows what, and telling people you don’t know what bad parents they are.

I have wasted enough time. It’s Saturday, I have my kids to go play with. Wasting time arguing with someone so bitter is pointless.

 

[catharina]

I can’t imagine what constitues “nice and successful” in your mind if the adults aren’t taking the time to practise simple teaching of obedience and safety to their children. No teaching? Forget the spanking. NO teaching??? Reprehensible. How are they nice or successful?

As to your last few posts: whatever assumption works for you in attempts to discredit me,
go for it, I suppose.

Still I ask again, what constitutes “nice and successful adulthood” that goes hand-in-hand with immoral parenting. I quoted directly from your post, so answer if you can. What on earth do you mean? “Nice and successful” co-existing with “immoral” parenting in the same person??? What? Maybe take a minute to answer just a terribly simple question before you find “oops” it’s time to hit your baby daughter again.

If you have no answer for my very simple question, based clearly on the statement in your own post, I’m certain that you find it to be perfectly acceptable to hit your baby daughter whenever you see fit. That adults decide to justify themselves indulge themselves by applying physical force (punishment) as a teaching tool is beyond my imagining.

 

[catharina]

Probably you meant to say a person who is (financially) successful and polite (nice) who is also immoral. Yes, all those things can go together but “morality” often does not match up with financial succss and one can be very moral without being any sort of “success” in the eyes of the world.

Just a simple request that you clarify your value system based on your own statement. I’m sorry that it was tooooo much for you.

 

[rayne89]

You know Catharina for someone that touts the importance respect for other people you don’t exactly walk the walk. I think your mad because the pole of Catholics has not gone in favor of anti-spanking. You’ve said your piece, and you do have a few that agree with you. The rest don’t, maybe you should accept that and move on. (My gut tells me the mods are going to close down this thread from all the bickering.)

 

[catharina]

You know Catharina for someone that touts the importance respect for other people you don’t exactly walk the walk. I think your mad because the pole of Catholics has not gone in favor of anti-spanking. You’ve said your piece, and you do have a few that agree with you. The rest don’t, maybe you should accept that and move on. (My gut tells me the mods are going to close down this thread from all the bickering.)

Sorry but I couldn’t tell you the numbers of the poll with a gun to my head. My stance is based in years and years and years of working with children who’ve suffered from child abuse, including the under-five-years-old set. Right - it skews my perception. I’ve never had a child in care who was hit too hard by parents who believed in no hitting at all. They’re not the ones who go overboard and become abusers.

My question to melchior was and is serious. Do we (as Catholics) judge people by a standard of “success” that falls short of “love is patient, love is kind.” It was a really simple question. Too bad some took offense.

 

[rayne89]

I do believe because you’ve seen so much pain your view is skewed, you’re right. It must be very difficult work that you do and I admire you for that.

You say you’ve never seen a child hit too hard by parents who don’t believe in hitting at all. Let’s look at the logic in that statement compared to other things in life. I have never heard of someone dying of a prescription drug overdose by a person whose never taken presciption drugs. Does that mean we should all stop taking prescription drugs? A loving, stable parent will not beat a child to death any more than me taking Vicoden for severe pain will cause me to overdose on drugs.

Do parents have to use corporal punishment absolutely not, if they feel for whatever reason it is not a good choice for their family. Does that mean that loving, caring parents who do are causing detrimental harm to their children? Absolutely not. I wish you could hear the broadcast from Dr. Ray because he discusses this extremist view against corporal punishement and how it came about, and how there are is absolutely no credible study that backs up its claims.

 

[catharina]

I do believe because you’ve seen so much pain your view is skewed, you’re right. It must be very difficult work that you do and I admire you for that.

You say you’ve never seen a child hit too hard by parents who don’t believe in hitting at all. Let’s look at the logic in that statement compared to other things in life. I have never heard of someone dying of a prescription drug overdose by a person whose never taken presciption drugs. Does that mean we should all stop taking prescription drugs? A loving, stable parent will not beat a child to death any more than me taking Vicoden for severe pain will cause me to overdose on drugs.

Do parents have to use corporal punishment absolutely not, if they feel for whatever reason it is not a good choice for their family. Does that mean that loving, caring parents who do are causing detrimental harm to their children? Absolutely not. I wish you could hear the broadcast from Dr. Ray because he discusses this extremist view against corporal punishement and how it came about, and how there are is absolutely no credible study that backs up its claims.

First, thank you for respecting my point of view. Instead of aiming labels of “pc” and liberal, hippie, baby boomer, you actually heard me. People who do such, who launch such verbal insults at me are, in my estimation, walking a very thin line in managing their anger. When such people have responsibility for small children, yeah, that kind of scares the wits out of me. People have actually posted (on this site - might have been the other spanking thread) about the EVIL and SIN of their very young children (under the age of seven years). That’s a total contradiction of Canon Law. CL describes those same children as “Infants.” Would you EVER hit an infant? Of course not.

Thank you too for pointing out that parents do not have to use corporal punishment. It’s frightening and frustrating to hear (other) parents say “well, it’s the only thing that works.” My natural response is along the lines of “hey fellow, get a bloody clue.”

I’ve bathed a dead baby who had lived in a skilled-nursing unit for abused infants and toddlers. He died at ten months old and was with us for six months. Think I’ll ever waver in my stance? Nope.

 

[bellamarie]

When such people have responsibility for small children, yeah, that kind of scares the wits out of me. People have actually posted (on this site - might have been the other spanking thread) about the EVIL and SIN of their very young children (under the age of seven years). That’s a total contradiction of Canon Law. CL describes those same children as “Infants.” Would you EVER hit an infant? Of course not.

I’ve bathed a dead baby who had lived in a skilled-nursing unit for abused infants and toddlers. He died at ten months old and was with us for six months. Think I’ll ever waver in my stance? Nope.

Catharina…I just checked back after my last post a few days ago and saw your responses. I am sorry certain people are not able to understand your point of view. I too have worked with children my entire life in the Catholic school system, business day cares, Kinderbible classes, CCD classes, my own in home day care business and raising three wonderful children, so…I completly admire, understand and appreciate your view on not accepting coporal punishment.

The original question was, “Is it morally right to smack a child.” Each person can see the word **smack **in a different light. While Melchior seemed inclined to speak for my feelings and interpretation of smack in his response…I must say not due to anything more than the fact I am a 55 yr old mother, grandmother and day care provider I see a negative conotation to that action.

Melchior your first response was you believe that children under the age of 7-8 should be spanked and felt it was the appropriate form of disciplline and love. I do not for any sake of argument agree with you. When you asked what constitutes turning out okay or what is successful, I will tell you… my three children are very respectful, admired by their friends, good christians, good parents and hard working, well liked human beings. They graduated from an all boys Catholic High School, earned their degrees in college and work in management with many people under them who respect. My son works for a top car manufacturer and creates programs to help them save billions of dollars a year in shipping and holds meetings with top VIP in the car industry. They volunteer their time to coach sports in the elementary Catholic school I taught at for 15 yrs and they graduated from, one a Salutatarian. I can say our entire family is known in our community as a very upstanding, Christian family and our parish priest compliments us and recommends my day care to parishioners.

That just about covers it and to think I managed it all without needing to spank my children. I am not saying it works for everyone but I know Dr. Phil Magraw agrees there is NO sound or good reason for smacking or spanking a child. Proverbs does say, “Spare the rod and spoil the child.” Do we take all scripture literally? What exactly is a rod? What exactly is a spoiled child?

You ask how do you keep a child from danger, such as touching a hot stove. My answer and what works for me caring for 6 children ages infant - 7 yrs is…put up a gate to keep them away if the stove is hot, electrical outlet, place the covers inside of them, falling down stairs, put a gate up or lock the door, going in the street, never take your eyes off of them while outside not even for 2 seconds, wandering off into an ocean, NEVER EVER take your eyes off of them for one second.

No one is perfect but I still believe NO child needs spanked. It teaches a child at an early age to Hit, smack or inflict pain to acheive what you want. Believe me those little minds can figure it out through example before they can crawl. I just took on an 8 month old who bit and when I spoke with his parent she said she spanks him. She asked my advice on how to stop him and I suggested to do as I do…when he goes to bite remove him from the other child, sit him down, make eye contact and say NO NO. A one minute time out with you staying there and then distracting him to another activity afterwards. Has he managed to bite the other toddler? Yes, does he now bite at the age of 16 months? No. If they mimic your words they will mimic your behavior. I never quite understood that old saying, “Do as I say and not as I do.”

Cathrina, many people agree and support your view. We all won’t agree on this but we all have passion for our beliefs. The many hours I have spent in classes and workshops on child pyschology and behavior confirms my beliefs, NO spanking, smacking or hitting is appropriate no matter what the age. The law backs this theory by making it unlawful. All day care providers and teachers are to report any suspicions of this.

Soooo…is smacking a child morally okay? Only each individual can answer that by examining their own heart. Is it legal? I would check with your state laws.

 

[bellamarie]

…(continued from above)

So please tell me how you would teach a two year old how to not run out into traffic if you are distracted for 7 seconds? How would you deal with little cousin Johnny, who I mentioned before, who was playing in the ocean and got a stern talking to (and he does such things routinely - despite how conscientious his parents are with talking to him about such things and discussing the dangers). I am all ears.

Mel

Without knowing Johnny and if he has any special learning problems its difficult to answer your question. Most 2 yr olds are spontaneous and the adult must at all times be near this child you describe. I have two 16 month olds in my day care and a 2 yr old and none of them act as you have described Johnny. In no judgemental way I suggest being certain Johnny is hearing you clearly. Most children really only “HEAR” when they are being spoken to at their level meaning you are down on your knees and giving eye contact. I realize there are behavioral children, but from my experience it can be due to medical issues. Be sure Johnny’s hearing is okay. Again not being judgemental in any way…taking your eyes off of a child at this age with the issues you describe could be fatal. No amount of spanking will help you if he has special needs. Good luck and God Bless