Is The ACLU A PAGAN GROUP?

[gilliam]

Catholic2003:

Where did “psychopath” come from? A sycophant is an uncritical and unwavering supporter; another phrase I could have used is “Republican cheerleader.” On the other hand, a psychopath is someone who has no moral compass; the modern term is sociopath.

While we’re on the subject, are you calling me a Nazi?

The First Amendment says that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. Is it that you disagree with this part of the First Amendment, and think that we should all just ignore it?

I know I would have problems if the local courthouse had an excerpt from the Koran on display. Is it too hard to imagine that some non-Christians have a problem with courthouses putting the Ten Commandments on display, e.g., if they are going up against a Christian spouse for child custody?

no, I am not calling you a Nazi (not sure where that came from). I said the ACLU may have done some good, but so did the Nazi party. Anyway, thanks for the clarification.

 

[Catholic2003]

gilliam:

Any organization which has promoted atheism and homosexual behavior as the ACLU has done is a bad organization. Any organization who defends pedophilia (which defending NAMBLA does), is a bad organization.

I disagree with your logical progression. Civil liberties only exist when all citizens have them. This is why those who attack civil liberties always start by trying to deny those liberties to those who are hated and despised by mainstream society, e.g., NAMBLA. If you feel that NAMBLA doesn’t have the same rights to legal representation as any other organization, then you are missing the point of what civil liberties are all about.

This is why President Bush always frames the discussion in terms of terrorists when he works to remove our civil liberties. After all, you have to be completely un-American to believe that terrorists have the right to defend themselves in court like decent folk.

 

[gilliam]

Catholic2003:

I disagree with your logical progression. Civil liberties only exist when all citizens have them. This is why those who attack civil liberties always start by trying to deny those liberties to those who are hated and despised by mainstream society, e.g., NAMBLA. If you feel that NAMBLA doesn’t have the same rights to legal representation as any other organization, then you are missing the point of what civil liberties are all about.

Look, NAMBLA teaches adult men how to lure little boys and get into the good gracies of their parents for the express purpose of having sex with them. It also teaches adult men how to avoid getting caught by the police and what to do once you are caught. They can have public defenders if they want, but the ACLU has gone out of its way to defend them (as they also do homosexual rights organizations) If the ACLU wants to be associated with them (and they seem to), find, but it is associating oneself with sinful acts, and I have the right to call them on it. And if one gives me the choice of siding with the likes of the ACLU or the Boy Scouts of America or Christian churches, I will side with the Boy Scouts and the Christian churches.

If you want to side with the sinful ones, be my guest, but don’t come into this group with a high and mighty attitude as you advocate this evil advocacy group.

 

[Catholic2003]

Lisa N:

Catholic2003, please look at the record of the ACLU and see the kind of issues they take up.

That’s what I’m trying to do by participating in this discussion.
Lisa N:

They seem to be determined to erase Christianity from the map.

I don’t see that as one of their stated goals. Is it possible that it is just that the government isn’t respecting the establishment of any other religion to any significant extent? Are there any courthouses that put excerpts from the Koran on display? Are there any public school systems that have a month of vacation for Ramadan? Or public school curricula that teach African or Babylonian or Lakota creation myths as science?
Lisa N:

For example look at the long list of actions against the Boy Scouts.

Do you think that the Boy Scouts should not be subject to the same laws as any other organization?

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Zoot:

Only two organizations have protected, abetted, and enabled pedophiles. One is NAMBLA. The other is the Church.

Are the law firms that defend the Church in abuse cases encouraging abuse? Are they, too, bad organizations?

You know what? There are mothers and grandmothers out there who have protected, abetted, and enabled pedophiles. Did they do it because they favored pedophilia? Of course not. They did it either because they could not bring themselves to open their eyes and believe the charges, because they believed perpetrators who vowed to mend their ways, or because–God help them–they thought they needed to avoid scandal or keep a “breadwinner” that much.

NAMBLA is a group formed to support pedophilia. The Church and others who have failed to protect children from pedophiles have either made a misguided effort to do right or lacked the courage to do the right they needed to do. NAMBLA would cease to exist if it disavowed pedophilia. Families and churches, on the other hand, will eventually cease to exist if they don’t.

 

[Catholic2003]

gilliam:

If you want to side with the sinful ones, be my guest, but don’t come into this group with a high and mighty attitude as you advocate this evil advocacy group.

So you are advocating an old-style Soviet system of justice, where homosexuals and criminals had no rights, because they were societal deviants. Unfortunately, no government has been able to successfully guarantee civil liberties to only a portion of society. As a result, no Soviet citizen had any real civil liberties.

I despise the terrorists who were responsible for 9/11 just as much as anyone else here, but if you were to suggest that we should just imprison them without trial because what they did is so awful, I would have to disagree with you. The reason that the U.S. legal system works so well compared to Soviet-style justice is that everyone, no matter how despised by decent society, has civil liberties.

So any organization that is truly defending civil liberties is going to be representing terrorists and homosexuals. The reason they do it is because they see the big picture.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Catholic2003:

So any organization that is truly defending civil liberties is going to be representing terrorists and homosexuals. The reason they do it is because they see the big picture.

How did we switch from pedophiles to homosexuals? I’m guessing a slip on your part, but it bears repeating that homosexuality and pedophilia are not the same thing.

The ACLU takes one side of the equation: they jump in whereever anyone might have a civil liberty that needs defending. When they argue that people suspected of terrorism or pedophilia deserve due process… no problem. If they argue that allowing free speech means allowing a degree of repugnant speech… that’s in our Constitution. But if the ACLU feels duty-bound to defend pedophilia or the public advocacy of that or any other crime as a civil right, they have lost their bearings. Period.

 

[St.James]

Exporter:

What are the “religions” of the ACLU Top Brass?

The ACLU leadership is almost reminiscent of a temple board meeting …[p. 279] … So many of the enthusiasts for the radical homosexual agenda, increased immorality, and expanded abortion rights are Jewish." [p. 293] rabbi Daniel Lapin, “America’s Real War,” Multnomah Publishers, Oregon, 1999

 

[gilliam]

St. James:

The ACLU leadership is almost reminiscent of a temple board meeting …[p. 279] … So many of the enthusiasts for the radical homosexual agenda, increased immorality, and expanded abortion rights are Jewish." [p. 293] rabbi Daniel Lapin, “America’s Real War,” Multnomah Publishers, Oregon, 1999

When he says Jewish he must be talking Reform Jews.

 

[gilliam]

Catholic2003:

So you are advocating an old-style Soviet system of justice, where homosexuals and criminals had no rights, because they were societal deviants. Unfortunately, no government has been able to successfully guarantee civil liberties to only a portion of society. As a result, no Soviet citizen had any real civil liberties.

I despise the terrorists who were responsible for 9/11 just as much as anyone else here, but if you were to suggest that we should just imprison them without trial because what they did is so awful, I would have to disagree with you. The reason that the U.S. legal system works so well compared to Soviet-style justice is that everyone, no matter how despised by decent society, has civil liberties.

So any organization that is truly defending civil liberties is going to be representing terrorists and homosexuals. The reason they do it is because they see the big picture.

The ACLU is not simply defending civil liberties, they pick and choose who they will defend. While that is their constitutional right, they have chosen, by and large, to defend those who are underminding the Christian values established in this country. Not only are they defending them, but they go out of their way to educate these groups on how they can better undermind the existing value systems. There is no doubt in my mind that the ACLU is after erraticating God from the public sphere. In that way, the ACLU is an anti-Christian organization.

The reason they do it is because they have a lot of homosexuals, Unitarians, Reform Jews and atheists within their organization. They are promoting their own beliefs. Make no mistake about that.

They are conducting a Jihad just as forcefully as the Islamofacists, and to the same end: power.

The sad part is, as of today, they are winning.

 

[Lisa_N]

Catholic2003:

I don’t see that as one of their stated goals. Is it possible that it is just that the government isn’t respecting the establishment of any other religion to any significant extent? Are there any courthouses that put excerpts from the Koran on display? Are there any public school systems that have a month of vacation for Ramadan? Or public school curricula that teach African or Babylonian or Lakota creation myths as science?

Do you think that the Boy Scouts should not be subject to the same laws as any other organization?

I am not sure why you are so convinced by what the ACLU says on their website versus looking at what they DO. Talk is cheap. They can say anything they want, vast platitudes about protecting our rights. OTOH take a look at their targets and you will see a strong pattern of attacking what might be deemed ‘traditional’ American values and the Christian religion.

For example on the seal of the City of Los Angeles, there USED to be a TINY cross. Frankly I don’t think anyone paid much attention to it and it certainly didn’t “establish” a religion, it simply represented the history of LA as being founded by christians, Catholics as it were. There is also apparently some Roman goddess on the seal. The ACLU couldn’t care less about the Roman goddess, they wanted the cross taken off. The Roman goddess is still there.

As to schools teaching other religions or myths please take a look at the news. There are frequent stories about children learning about a variety of religions. In one school here, during Ramadan children were asked to take an Islamic name and learn about Islam. In our city we have a “holiday” tree but a PUBLIC Menorah with a PUBLIC ceremony. Just don’t mention Christmas or Christians and you are safe from the ACLU.

Another example of a double standard. I was involved in a reading program at one of our lower performing schools. I liked to buy books for the kids for this program so I asked for their requirements. Along with wanting books appropriate for certain age groups, I was told absolutely NO CHRISTIAN books or anything say at Easter that mentioned Jesus. Rabbits are fine however. No “winter holiday” books that mentioned Christmas…Santa is great however. OTOH they had a SUGGESTED list of books to purchase and one series WAS on African regligions and African myths. Another book was comprised of Native American stories of creation. We have a very unique group of Native Americans in the NW with fabulous stories and their wonderful totems.

Look I have no problem with teaching comparative religions or teaching myths. As a kid my school taught greek and roman myths. We read the Illiad, the Odyessey, we learned about Zeus and the Oracle at Delphi. So what? Were we damaged? No. But the ACLU doesn’t seem terribly interested in removing teachings of ANYTHING except Christianity. I don’t want special rights, I just want equal rights. What about that?

Lisa N

 

[gilliam]

The county seal is a good example of the ACLU picking and choosing what to go after. They went after the tiny cross, but ignored the huge goddess in the center.

AND they are doing it all over the country…

 

[gilliam]

The county seal of LA was a good example of the ACLU picking and choosing what to go after. They sued to get rid of the tiny cross, but ignored the large goddess in the middle. AND they are doing the same thing all over the country. They are not fooling anyone.

http://www.mindspring.com/~schlafly/judges/seal-1.gif
old seal

lacounty.info/images/seal-1.gif
new seal
fortunately, the county board when they changed the seal got rid of the goddess, no thanks to the ACLU

 

[Digitonomy]

Lisa N:

Look I have no problem with teaching comparative religions or teaching myths. …I don’t want special rights, I just want equal rights. What about that?

So you wouldn’t have a problem with a book that described 15 different creation myths, and chapter 9 is the one we believe?

I would not be very fond of that approach, but I suspect it would pass constitutional muster.

 

[Lisa_N]

digitonomy:

So you wouldn’t have a problem with a book that described 15 different creation myths, and chapter 9 is the one we believe?

I would not be very fond of that approach, but I suspect it would pass constitutional muster.

I don’t think RELIGION should be taught in schools…IOW do not instruct children in what they should believe or disbelieve. However I don’t see any problem with kids reading about various religions including their creation stories. In the context of history (where we were taught the Greek myths) or in the context of social sciences, ignoring the impact of religions is like ignoring the elephant in the living room. Rewriting American history and tossing out the strong religious underpinnings of both the early immigration to America as well as with respect to the documents that are the foundation of this country is similarly ridiculous. But right now a teacher in California has been prohibited from using these documents in class because they mention God.

The parents should be involved in the childrens’ religious instruction, not the schools. That is far different than teaching history (without picking and choosing) or social studies. So if indeed there is such a book that has fifteen stories of creation, it’s not up to the schools to tell the children that we believe Chapter 9.

Lisa N

 

[Catholic2003]

BLB_Oregon:

How did we switch from pedophiles to homosexuals? I’m guessing a slip on your part, but it bears repeating that homosexuality and pedophilia are not the same thing.

We’re jumping around all the different cases that the ACLU has supported, i.e., the homosexuals who want to be Boy Scouts, the pedophiles of NAMBLA, and so on.

BLB_Oregon:

The ACLU takes one side of the equation: they jump in whereever anyone might have a civil liberty that needs defending.

This is what you have to do in order to defend civil liberties for everyone.

BLB_Oregon:

But if the ACLU feels duty-bound to defend pedophilia or the public advocacy of that or any other crime as a civil right, they have lost their bearings. Period.

I would agree with this. Are you saying that the ACLU itself advocates that pederasty should not be criminal? (As opposed to supporting NAMBLA’s right of free speech to advocate such nonsense.)

 

[Catholic2003]

Lisa N:

For example on the seal of the City of Los Angeles, there USED to be a TINY cross. Frankly I don’t think anyone paid much attention to it and it certainly didn’t “establish” a religion

I disagree. I have no doubt that that section of the seal served to make some non-Christians feel like second class citizens in places where the seal was displayed. However, I sincerely doubt that the seal made anyone think they would “fit in” better if they worshipped the Roman gods and goddesses. Just like I think that burning a cross on a homosexual’s lawn and spray-painting “FAG” on their house sends a message that a pile of burning dog poop and otherwise defacing the house would not send.

 

[gilliam]

Catholic2003:

I would agree with this. Are you saying that the ACLU itself advocates that pederasty should not be criminal? (As opposed to supporting NAMBLA’s right of free speech to advocate such nonsense.)

In August, 2003, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) filed a lawsuit against the state of Kansas over the state’s criminal sodomy law involving children. The ACLU is defending Matthew Limon, a homosexual who committed sodomy against a 14-year-old boy in 2000. At the time of his crime, Simon was 18 years old. The ACLU is claiming that Limon’s conviction is unconstitutionally discriminatory because the penalties for sodomy with a minor are different than for heterosexual sex with a minor.

 

[Catholic2003]

gilliam:

In August, 2003, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) filed a lawsuit against the state of Kansas over the state’s criminal sodomy law involving children. The ACLU is defending Matthew Limon, a homosexual who committed sodomy against a 14-year-old boy in 2000. At the time of his crime, Simon was 18 years old. The ACLU is claiming that Limon’s conviction is unconstitutionally discriminatory because the penalties for sodomy with a minor are different than for heterosexual sex with a minor.

I actually agree with the ACLU on this. A non-minor having sex with a minor should be a crime regardless of the genders involved. The way the media “approves” of older female teachings having sex with underage male students, while going ballistic about older male teachers having sex with underage students is completely hypocritical.

 

[gilliam]

Catholic2003:

I actually agree with the ACLU on this. A non-minor having sex with a minor should be a crime regardless of the genders involved. The way the media “approves” of older female teachings having sex with underage male students, while going ballistic about older male teachers having sex with underage students is completely hypocritical.

and the arguement would be it probably would be legal in states where the age of consent is 15