Is the CCC a rule or a suggestion or?

[Andreas_Hofer]

mikew262:

Well it’s a little more complex than that. However I’ll play your game for a bit.

At one time a long time ago: The world is flat and nobody can tell me any different. If you sail too far, you fall off the edge and die. This is the way God made it, I agree with that, and if you don’t agree with that, you are wrong and guilty of heresy and must die. Don’t try to confuse me with the facts, I know better.

Sometime later, still a long time ago: Holy Moley! Somebody just sailed to the edge and didn’t fall off. Well what do you know? Looks like God didn’t make it that way afterall. It looks the world may be round like somebody tried to tell us awhile back. Looks like we were wrong. I suppose we should’ve listened and been a little more opened minded. May be there is room for more than one train of thought. Hmm…

Pretty simplistic, huh? I believe I made my point, but it’s little more complex than this isn’t?

Certainly it’s more complex. For one, the circumference of the round earth had been calculated by Eratosthenes centuries before the birth of Christ. (If you’re still working under the assumption that people at the time of Columbus thought the earth was flat, you need to do some reading. People thought he was crazy because the round earth was too big to sail west from Europe to Asia. It turns out those people were right, but luckily for Columbus he ran into an unknown land mass that saved his little endeavor.) Although Augustine still found the idea of antipodes living upside on the other side of the world laughable, he never decried it as a heresy and I don’t recall anyone ever being put to death for it.

Furthermore, the Church doesn’t claim infallibility in matters of science, and those matters are not debated in the CCC.

 

[mikew262]

Andreas Hofer:

While you may not be intending to make this statement as relativistic as it can be, it is at best highly ambiguous. If something is “right,” i.e. true, then it is true for all people, no matter whether they agree it is true or not. Your statement makes it sound like you think something can be true for a Catholic while false for a non-Catholic. That’s why you’re getting so much ribbing.

Ok, lets try this from another angle.

Baptists believe in Sola Scriptura (sp?), we as Catholics do not. To them, Sola Scriptura is the Truth and the only Truth. We, as Catholics are heretics to them because we add tradition among other things. Understand?

They cannot understand why we don’t see the Truth, as they believe it. We, as Catholics, don’t understand why they can’t see the Truth as we see it.

This is so clear and cannot be any simpler.

BTW, we are way off topic here.

 

[mikew262]

buffalo:

One difference - the world being flat was not absolute truth.

Ah, it was at the time, however. To go against this truth, was to go against God. God made the earth flat, and how dare you challenge that!

 

[mikew262]

Andreas Hofer:

Certainly it’s more complex. For one, the circumference of the round earth had been calculated by Eratosthenes centuries before the birth of Christ. (If you’re still working under the assumption that people at the time of Columbus thought the earth was flat, you need to do some reading. People thought he was crazy because the round earth was too big to sail west from Europe to Asia. It turns out those people were right, but luckily for Columbus he ran into an unknown land mass that saved his little endeavor.) Although Augustine still found the idea of antipodes living upside on the other side of the world laughable, he never decried it as a heresy and I don’t recall anyone ever being put to death for it.

Furthermore, the Church doesn’t claim infallibility in matters of science, and those matters are not debated in the CCC.

I stand corrected on my flat earth history. I was only using it, to rebutt the silly math analogy Fix and Buffalo was putting out there.

However, I still stand my original position.

 

[fix]

mikew262:

Ok, lets try this from another angle.

Baptists believe in Sola Scriptura (sp?), we as Catholics do not. To them, Sola Scriptura is the Truth and the only Truth. We, as Catholics are heretics to them because we add tradition among other things. Understand?

They cannot understand why we don’t see the Truth, as they believe it. We, as Catholics, don’t understand why they can’t see the Truth as we see it.

This is so clear and cannot be any simpler.

BTW, we are way off topic here.

You are serious? Again, that one fails to see the truth does not mean it does not exist. If we both see a car and you think it is an apple, is it really an apple?

 

[mikew262]

fix:

You are serious? Again, that one fails to see the truth does not mean it does not exist. If we both see a car and you think it is an apple, is it really an apple?

Ok, you’ve turned a blind eye to the point I’m trying to make, so I give up.

If you seriously believe that the only way to salvation is through the Catholic Church and that all non-Catholic Christians are potenially lost if they don’t follow the Truth, as dictated by the Catholic Church, then so be it. However, I find that view extremely eliteist and narrow.

I choose to be Catholic because I believe The Church comes the closest to what I think Jesus had in mind for us. However, I will not presume that everybody should think like me, and if they make their connection to God through a slightly different path, who am I (and you for that matter) to judge that their path will not lead to them God.

 

[fix]

mikew262:

Ok, you’ve turned a blind eye to the point I’m trying to make, so I give up.

If you seriously believe that the only way to salvation is through the Catholic Church and that all non-Catholic Christians are potenially lost if they don’t follow the Truth, as dictated by the Catholic Church, then so be it. However, I find that view extremely eliteist and narrow.

I choose to be Catholic because I believe The Church comes the closest to what I think Jesus had in mind for us. However, I will not presume that everybody should think like me, and if they make their connection to God through a slightly different path, who am I (and you for that matter) to judge that their path will not lead to them God.

I repeat post 131

I am not judging anyone’s moral culpability. I am saying that because one does not accept an objective truth does not mean there is not one or that all things are equal. The person who does not accept the truth may be non culpable or he may be culpable. My point is there is a truth whether or not some one disagrees with the truth or not.

 

[buffalo]

mikew262:

Ok, you’ve turned a blind eye to the point I’m trying to make, so I give up.

If you seriously believe that the only way to salvation is through the Catholic Church and that all non-Catholic Christians are potenially lost if they don’t follow the Truth, as dictated by the Catholic Church, then so be it. However, I find that view extremely eliteist and narrow.

I choose to be Catholic because I believe The Church comes the closest to what I think Jesus had in mind for us. However, I will not presume that everybody should think like me, and if they make their connection to God through a slightly different path, who am I (and you for that matter) to judge that their path will not lead to them God.

Here is the problem - Jesus expects us to evangelize all nations. If it seems elitist you will have to take it up with Jesus. These are His teachings and I don’t presume to know more than He.

Any truth (and religions do possess some truth) can lead you to a greater truth. Keep searching and you will see greater truths. Close your mind and you will only see partial truths. And if you keep an open heart and mind (faith) you indeed get closer to the truth (God).

In any case, few of us will go right to heaven. Purgatory purges imperfections from us. As it removes our imperfections, logically the truth will become clearer.

 

[mikew262]

fix:

I repeat post 131

And I’ll repeat what I’ve said several times already. As Catholics, we believe in the Truth, as outlined by our Catholic faith. A non-Catholic Christian sees the Truth as outlined by their faith. You believe in your version of the Truth; a Protestant version of “Fix” believes in his version. Protestant “Fix” feels just as strong about his Truth as you (and I) do about yours.

The difference between you and me is that you feel the Catholic Truth is the truth for all. I feel while the Catholic interpretation of the Truth works for me, I acknowledge that non-catholic Christians see God’s Truth is a slightly different manner. I say slightly, because the majority of Christians all hold the same basic truths.

Could I be wrong? Maybe, but I don’t think so. Either way, I believe God won’t hold it against me.

I commend you for your devoutness, but I think you need to expand your views a little bit.

 

[buffalo]

mikew262:

And I’ll repeat what I’ve said several times already. As Catholics, we believe in the Truth, as outlined by our Catholic faith. A non-Catholic Christian sees the Truth as outlined by their faith. You believe in your version of the Truth; a Protestant version of “Fix” believes in his version. Protestant “Fix” feels just as strong about his Truth as you (and I) do about yours.

The difference between you and me is that you feel the Catholic Truth is the truth for all. I feel while the Catholic interpretation of the Truth works for me, I acknowledge that non-catholic Christians see God’s Truth is a slightly different manner. I say slightly, because the majority of Christians all hold the same basic truths.

Could I be wrong? Maybe, but I don’t think so. Either way, I believe God won’t hold it against me.

I commend you for your devoutness, but I think you need to expand your views a little bit.

There is only one truth that works for everyone. Our human imperfection convinces us there is one for each one of us.

It is true non-Catholics see the truth in a different way ( a limited and in some areas completely wrong). That is the result of my plan having its intended effects. If I claim 1+1=3 enough times it will be truth for some. They can live their life believing that although they would be a little confused by the change they receive at the grocers.

In their ignorance can they get to heaven. The Church says yes, but they will enter in the end through the Catholic Church. However, if they have been told the errors and obstinately refuse to believe that changes the deal. That is essentially turning away from the truth, hence turning away from God.

Do you believe that those who through thier own choice turn their back on God, go to heaven?

 

[mikew262]

buffalo:

Close your mind and you will only see partial truths. And if you keep an open heart and mind (faith) you indeed get closer to the truth (God).

This is what I’m trying convince you and Fix. I think your minds are closed and you refuse to acknowledge that what you see as Truth, somebody else may see slightly different. Yes, keep an open heart and mind concerning our fellow Christian’s salvation chances, this is all I’m saying. Now I know I took some of your words somewhat out of context, but they were good words, worth using.

I agree, there are some fringe denominations that are way off track (JW, 7th Day Adventist, maybe Mormons), however the majority of the mainstream Christians believe much the same as we do; there are some significant differences, however there are more similarities.

 

[buffalo]

mikew262:

This is what I’m trying convince you and Fix. I think your minds are closed and you refuse to acknowledge that what you see as Truth, somebody else may see slightly different. Yes, keep an open heart and mind concerning our fellow Christian’s salvation chances, this is all I’m saying. Now I know I took some of your words somewhat out of context, but they were good words, worth using.

I agree, there are some fringe denominations that are way off track (JW, 7th Day Adventist, maybe Mormons), however the majority of the mainstream Christians believe much the same as we do; there are some significant differences, however there are more similarities.

I fully understand that others think their truth is the truth. And what ends up being the tie-breaker in all of this? Revelation. Revelation reinforces the compass of truth. So if Revelation points us in a certain direction then we must follow.

And I do keep an open mind as to their salvation. That is where ignorance plays the part. I am fully aware that a non-Catholic may get into heaven and I won’t.

However, it is our Catholic duty to change the hearts of men to see the fullness of truth. We have some culpability when we do not and since we have been given the gift of being taught the truth, a greater responsibility has been given us. One has to wonder how our failure to evangelize the world will play out at our judgement.

 

[mikew262]

buffalo:

Do you believe that those who through thier own choice turn their back on God, go to heaven?

Of course not! I call those folks atheists and agnostics.

Look we aren’t going to change each other’s mind, so further discussion is futile. There are many who believe as I do, and the same for your position.

God Bless and live your faith to the fullest as you see fit.

 

[buffalo]

mikew262:

There are many who believe as I do, and the same for your position.

God Bless and live your faith to the fullest as you see fit.

But isn’t this obstinate denial?

 

[buffalo]

mikew262:

Of course not! I call those folks atheists and agnostics.

Ok. What about those that are told that a great part of their beliefs are true, but foundationally built on a lie?

 

[mikew262]

buffalo:

But isn’t this obstinate denial?

No, reality.

 

[buffalo]

mikew262:

No, reality.

It is a reality that this is obstinate denial?

 

[Linnyo]

buffalo:

Ok. What about those that are told that a great part of their beliefs are true, but foundationally built on a lie?

The Bible, God’s word, is very clear that people who turn their back on God, or who do not believe in Christ don’t have thepromise of eternal life. (even if they believe the truth that 2+2=4. Nobody is questioning that.

 

[mikew262]

buffalo:

Ok. What about those that are told that a great part of their beliefs are true, but foundationally built on a lie?

I’m not sure I understand what you are asking. If are you insinuating that non-catholic Christians have turned their back on God by not accepting the “Catholic” Truth, then I believe that is a false premise, and thus you asked an irrelevant question. The same goes if you tell a non-catholic Christian that their beliefs are foundationally built on a lie. They could make the same statement to us. If I’ve misunderstood your question, then pls clarify.

 

[mikew262]

buffalo:

It is a reality that this is obstinate denial?

I suppose I could ask the same question of you. By you disagreeing with my position, are you in obstinate denial?