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AJC
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You have the wrong end of the stick. Some Catholic hymns seem, to me, centered on self not God.
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
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Out of all the posts I’ve written you respond to this one.
Ok.
I’m not a huge fan of the OCP. I prefer Audrey Assad, Matt Mahar and the like. Modern artists seem more in tune with the Holy Spirit than those who wrote music in the 70’s when things changed. In fact, there are many recent artists (2000 and beyond) that actually have done much to put scripture into song in a way it wasn’t done before. Petra’s “Salvation Belongs To Our God” is often re-played by those in the Catholic eos because it is literally just scripture.
But again, your view of the Music Ministry is all a direct result of the complete lack of funds that most musicians in the church face. One of the songs I loathe most is “Ave Maria” because the singers (especially the men) like to turn it into a self-serving virtuoso concert. The words and the language hardly matter. It’s all about them. I’d rather someone devoulty sing a Peter, Paul and Mary song than sit through another performance piece of Ave Maria, Salvae Regina or Dona Nobis.
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Anne1964
Guest
If you live within driving distance of other parishes why not check them out?
I, too, like silence before Mass to pray and I like Gregorian Chant.
There are 12 Catholic Churches within a one hour drive from my house. I have visited them all and seen everything from a Traditional Latin Mass to liturgical dancers in a church with no kneelers.
The music varies also from guitars and 70s hymns to what I would term ordinary Catholic Church music with organ or piano to older hymns and Gregorian Chant, sometimes done well and sometimes not so well.
My best friend is Charismatic and I think she’s crazy half the time lol. The Church has something for everyone.
At my parish we chant the Gloria, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei in Latin every Sunday. We have kneelers set out for people who want to kneel to receive Communion. We pay our organist $70,000 a year and he’s worth every penny. Our choir is pretty bad, though and our cantors have a range of abilities.
There is silence before Mass before we pray the Rosary. Almost no one leaves Mass until after the recessional hymn is finished. There is very little talking during Mass. our priest isn’t afraid to tackle the hard subjects in his homilies and his homilies are excellent.
The downside? Our priest has a thing about children who make even a tiny sound during Mass. We have lost families with children because of his behavior and it’s a real shame. Several people have discussed this with him and he’s well aware of it but he isn’t going to change.
My “backup” parish is in a small town and they currently have no organist. They play recordings on their clavinova and one of two people cantor. The choice of music is truly awful and most of it is not singable. People don’t dress well at this parish and I have seen one man open carry a pistol while distributing Communion as an EMHC. However, they are one of the friendliest groups of people I have ever encountered in a Catholic Church.
I also go to a Traditional Latin Mass at least once a month. I’m still getting used to it but overall I like it.
I do understand that external things like the music and behavior of fellow parishioners can have an effect on your experience during Mass. Some things bring me closer to Jesus and some things push me away.
I close my eyes a lot during Mass because I’m easily distracted. For the same reason I sit up front. I also try to offer up any annoyances to God and sometimes I will focus on the crucifix and remind myself that whatever is irritating to me is nothing compared to what Jesus did for us.
I hope you find a parish where you feel at home.
I, too, like silence before Mass to pray and I like Gregorian Chant.
There are 12 Catholic Churches within a one hour drive from my house. I have visited them all and seen everything from a Traditional Latin Mass to liturgical dancers in a church with no kneelers.
The music varies also from guitars and 70s hymns to what I would term ordinary Catholic Church music with organ or piano to older hymns and Gregorian Chant, sometimes done well and sometimes not so well.
My best friend is Charismatic and I think she’s crazy half the time lol. The Church has something for everyone.
At my parish we chant the Gloria, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei in Latin every Sunday. We have kneelers set out for people who want to kneel to receive Communion. We pay our organist $70,000 a year and he’s worth every penny. Our choir is pretty bad, though and our cantors have a range of abilities.
There is silence before Mass before we pray the Rosary. Almost no one leaves Mass until after the recessional hymn is finished. There is very little talking during Mass. our priest isn’t afraid to tackle the hard subjects in his homilies and his homilies are excellent.
The downside? Our priest has a thing about children who make even a tiny sound during Mass. We have lost families with children because of his behavior and it’s a real shame. Several people have discussed this with him and he’s well aware of it but he isn’t going to change.
My “backup” parish is in a small town and they currently have no organist. They play recordings on their clavinova and one of two people cantor. The choice of music is truly awful and most of it is not singable. People don’t dress well at this parish and I have seen one man open carry a pistol while distributing Communion as an EMHC. However, they are one of the friendliest groups of people I have ever encountered in a Catholic Church.
I also go to a Traditional Latin Mass at least once a month. I’m still getting used to it but overall I like it.
I do understand that external things like the music and behavior of fellow parishioners can have an effect on your experience during Mass. Some things bring me closer to Jesus and some things push me away.
I close my eyes a lot during Mass because I’m easily distracted. For the same reason I sit up front. I also try to offer up any annoyances to God and sometimes I will focus on the crucifix and remind myself that whatever is irritating to me is nothing compared to what Jesus did for us.
I hope you find a parish where you feel at home.
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misstherese
Guest
Simply having a disagreement does not mean division. Do you realize the real division occurred in the 60s when the mass suddenly changed so drastically enough to cause so many religious and laymen to fall away? It is not those who yearn for the mass of the saints that desire division, but unity through finally being heard frankly and simply about their concerns without just being written off as a “trad”.
And by the way, I have to travel an hour for a Latin mass and in some countries it’s not even available. The parishes surrounding me would find it absurd to even think about using any Latin in the mass most likely because the priests don’t know it. I can also tell you that I did not know the Latin mass existed until a year ago and it’s likely a majority of my confirmation class has absolutely no knowledge of it.
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adgloriam
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Esteemed @misstherese .
We incur in scandal, unwittingly by negligence, by the potential negative effects on others caused by our words. It is of prudence…And among Christs harshest words in the Gospel is the condemning of those causing scandal to the little ones.
Division is inherent to the specific discourse surrounding “traditionalism” more by the widespread “circulation” of that discourse than by it’s content. Just 1 week ago a man on this forum advocated violence to a certain degree “in nomine of that discourse”. He had been the victim of overexposure that his critical judgement could not deconstruct
No few forces, hostile to the catholic church, even schismatic, make that very discourse their “flag ship” and we reinforce those forces by adding to the circulation of the discourse they use.
We incur in scandal, unwittingly by negligence, by the potential negative effects on others caused by our words. It is of prudence…And among Christs harshest words in the Gospel is the condemning of those causing scandal to the little ones.
Division is inherent to the specific discourse surrounding “traditionalism” more by the widespread “circulation” of that discourse than by it’s content. Just 1 week ago a man on this forum advocated violence to a certain degree “in nomine of that discourse”. He had been the victim of overexposure that his critical judgement could not deconstruct
No few forces, hostile to the catholic church, even schismatic, make that very discourse their “flag ship” and we reinforce those forces by adding to the circulation of the discourse they use.
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Bluebright
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No the church is never leaving you. You go for the Eucharist, end of. Jesus is there, unless your parish is doing some horrendous heretic thing, you should go.
It is frustrating when your individual parish modernises ( or a host of other frustrating things, like a priest you don’t get on with , can’t understand etc.) but not a reason to leave. If you can’t find another parish or a different mass then you just have to grin and bear it and offer it up to Jesus, which is something you may be being called to do, pray on that. One thing about life is that change is constant, so hopefully things change, you could see if anyone else feels like you do, set up a group and see if maybe one traditional mass could be retained/created. At our parish we have 1130 Latin sung mass and 930 family mass and Saturday 6pm silent mass which seems to cover most bases. The 930 is guitars and more relaxed singing etc. and 1130 is more formal organ and Latin though it wouldn’t be formally called a Latin mass as the spoken word is English and it’s just all the singing in Latin but people have a choice. Maybe meet with your priest and or parish secretary. Just an idea if no local parishes meet your needs. Good luck.
It is frustrating when your individual parish modernises ( or a host of other frustrating things, like a priest you don’t get on with , can’t understand etc.) but not a reason to leave. If you can’t find another parish or a different mass then you just have to grin and bear it and offer it up to Jesus, which is something you may be being called to do, pray on that. One thing about life is that change is constant, so hopefully things change, you could see if anyone else feels like you do, set up a group and see if maybe one traditional mass could be retained/created. At our parish we have 1130 Latin sung mass and 930 family mass and Saturday 6pm silent mass which seems to cover most bases. The 930 is guitars and more relaxed singing etc. and 1130 is more formal organ and Latin though it wouldn’t be formally called a Latin mass as the spoken word is English and it’s just all the singing in Latin but people have a choice. Maybe meet with your priest and or parish secretary. Just an idea if no local parishes meet your needs. Good luck.
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adgloriam
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@misstherese I am exceedingly happy about your confirmation. Please, let me congratulate you and assure you that your testimony touches my heart.
I will give the following testimony, on the only reason that I believe it might be a useful perspective to you on your pilgrimage:
The closest living language to Latin is my mother tongue, in terms of grammar. I am used to see Latin written on the walls since before I could walk.
I will tell you one more thing: I’m from Europe, and no one here talks about “liturgical abuse” or “traditionalism”. We are Catholics since Saint James went to Santiago de Compostela. We have catholic rites that come from that time, perfected by myriads of saints before the Americas were even discovered. To talk about “traditionalism” to a European, is of a ridiculousness you probably can’t begin to image. When I look out my window, I see stone quarries dating from Phoenicians times when prophet Jonah tried to escape to Tarsis. When I walk down my street I encounter pre-Christian Roman theaters…(If ever you encounter a “fundamentalist traditionalist” join me in a good chuckle.)
And I want to thank you personally for your 2 paragraphs @misstherese
I will give the following testimony, on the only reason that I believe it might be a useful perspective to you on your pilgrimage:
The closest living language to Latin is my mother tongue, in terms of grammar. I am used to see Latin written on the walls since before I could walk.
As a cradle catholic I was raised surrounded by the living testimony that all preceding generations had grown up with Latin mass. Their consensual judgement on it: We are better of now, finally we can understand the readings. Not a single voice in discord. The reason, why it took almost 2000 years for the vernacular, was precisely the importance and prudence (and goes to show the importance) that not a single word or meaning of the scripture was to allow any distortion or misinterpretation through translation. [And allowing translation, meant translation to every single language of the world. If find the dictionary lacking words when translating 1 paragraph between modern European languages.]
I will tell you one more thing: I’m from Europe, and no one here talks about “liturgical abuse” or “traditionalism”. We are Catholics since Saint James went to Santiago de Compostela. We have catholic rites that come from that time, perfected by myriads of saints before the Americas were even discovered. To talk about “traditionalism” to a European, is of a ridiculousness you probably can’t begin to image. When I look out my window, I see stone quarries dating from Phoenicians times when prophet Jonah tried to escape to Tarsis. When I walk down my street I encounter pre-Christian Roman theaters…(If ever you encounter a “fundamentalist traditionalist” join me in a good chuckle.)
So do I for certain masses and devotions, and I take great joy in it. Hopefully we increase in our merit, and even if not: That special mass gives a satisfaction unequaled, and that is enough for me.
Do I?? Oh @misstherese, the colonial wars in the 60’s ending 500 years of foreign domination and reshaping national identities, the entire South America was a gunpowder barrel, Africa, Asia, media revolution worldwide, modern science, the pill, and perhaps even most: the first generalized access to higher education. There were no short amount of factors adding up in that period, causing loss of faith and revolution, I venture say: Liturgical reform was most needed at that time than ever, and its need was its cause…[Jorge Bergoglio was asked why he was made provincial superior so young: he gave these reasons for the generalized abandoning of the ministry at the time.]
And I want to thank you personally for your 2 paragraphs @misstherese
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Reuben_J
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I usually have no problem with disagreement. It is a problem when it causes division. We have seen disagreement actually did cause division in our Church because those who disagreed could not handle it. So that is indeed a problem.
The introduction of Vatican II in the sixties did not cause fallen away Catholics. There were more factors involved, social and technological. The decrease in church attendance did not affect the Catholic Church only.
Today there is more non-practicing and non-believing Catholics in the Western sphere of countries but surprisingly the number is on the rise in Africa and Asia.
So blaming the new form of the mass may not entirely spot on.
As for music being used in the liturgy, it is changing also, with time. I grew up mostly in the seventies, and I still like those music. The current music are not to my taste, but I am not leaving the Church because of that. Instead I would try to learn them and find happiness in seeing my daughter singing in the music ministry, singing their songs.
I do not like changes because I want to hold unto what I know and like. Unfortunately the world moves on and changes are inevitable.
It therefore, is still a matter of how we handle disagreement so that it does not cause division. We have to be careful with our words and action, so that it should not bring others to hate what we hate, to dislike what we dislike.
The introduction of Vatican II in the sixties did not cause fallen away Catholics. There were more factors involved, social and technological. The decrease in church attendance did not affect the Catholic Church only.
Today there is more non-practicing and non-believing Catholics in the Western sphere of countries but surprisingly the number is on the rise in Africa and Asia.
So blaming the new form of the mass may not entirely spot on.
As for music being used in the liturgy, it is changing also, with time. I grew up mostly in the seventies, and I still like those music. The current music are not to my taste, but I am not leaving the Church because of that. Instead I would try to learn them and find happiness in seeing my daughter singing in the music ministry, singing their songs.
I do not like changes because I want to hold unto what I know and like. Unfortunately the world moves on and changes are inevitable.
It therefore, is still a matter of how we handle disagreement so that it does not cause division. We have to be careful with our words and action, so that it should not bring others to hate what we hate, to dislike what we dislike.
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Spyridon
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WHOA.
WHOOOOOAH.
70Gs a year to play the piano a few hours a week?!?
Maybe I should take some piano lessons…
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Spyridon
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
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Anne1964:
WHOA.
WHOOOOOAH.
70Gs a year to play the piano a few hours a week?!?
Maybe I should take some piano lessons…
LOL!!!
A professionally trained organist is NOT the same as a “piano player”. Organs are FAR more complicated instruments buy eons and are really only tangentially related.
A professionally trained musician is going to have at least a bachelor’s degree in Music, if not a Masters. While they may only play the organ at Mass most of these courses require extensive work in other instruments in order to better understand the “instrument of choice”. Music theory, production, etc are also studied.
Not to mention at this point it is REALLY hard to be a truly professionally trained organist. My musician family members took low-level college classes that included organ theory but they both paid MORE than the cost of a class to be professionally trained in the organ. Even now, while they know vastly more than the average musician about the organ alone when it comes to mastery of the organ, they’d still be considered novice/intermediate even if they are advanced/concert/symphony level on other instruments. (including the piano).
Really, there is little shortage of novice piano players. Which is why most churches opt for paying pennies on the dollar for some “good enough” to come play piano for Mass. One of the reasons that my family member travels to play for Protestant churches is that they cough up the dough.
Also, keep in mind that a Church hired musician is doing FAR more than “a few hours a week”. You have weekend Masses, funerals, and weddings. Each run an hour or so—behind each hour of music is 2-3 hours of practice either alone or with the Choir. My family member who works for the Protestants who have only one 1.5 hour service is paid for 3 hours that day and then 3 additional hours to work with the Choir and practice. That’s 6 hours a week for one service. It doesn’t include funerals, weddings, Holy Days, etc. A busy church is going to EASILY have 40 hours of work for a musician…nevermind the other practicing, planning and general research they need to keep their craft honed that they do on their own time.
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Spyridon
Guest
Why must you rain on my parade?
Here I was thinking I could take some 2 month piano course then go make 70k a year working less then 10 hours a week.
When you explained everything that goes into it, 70k a year no longer seems so extravagant.
Here I was thinking I could take some 2 month piano course then go make 70k a year working less then 10 hours a week.
When you explained everything that goes into it, 70k a year no longer seems so extravagant.
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
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It honestly isn’t. Considering that a truly professionally trained musician has more training than a nurse, fire fighter, cop, teacher and professional athlete it’s a shame that most Catholic Churches put so little value on them.Why must you rain on my parade?
Here I was thinking I could take some 2 month piano course then go make 70k a year working less then 10 hours a week.
When you explained everything that goes into it, 70k a year no longer seems so extravagant.
My family member practiced piano and organ for hours during their college years. Way more than it took me to do stats homework, advanced macro and finance.
People get angry at the insipid music hammered out on the piano and the lame choir but when you’re paying someone who has little classical training you’re really paying for a warm body. Someone talented in music performance is going to be able to also teach granny out-of-tune how to harmonize with the choir…rather than “taking what they can get” and just accepting that a voulenteer misses notes half the time.
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adgloriam
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High impatience for (irritability caused by) noise as you described is a strong indicator of health problems or extreme pressure, or both. In this case, a short letter to the vicar (or a good conversation with another priest) serves as a charitable alert that some help or attention may be required at that point in his life.
It does not reflect negatively, we all require each others help - we are human after all.
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ktmeyer
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I was saying my husband and other visitors or new comers appreciate having it projected. I’ve got the creed memorized
But I don’t have the words to all the hymns ever written memorized, and when I’m juggling a baby, plus several more children, trying to find them in the missal or a hymnal is nearly impossible. I used to just not sing along because of that, but with the projection I can.But I agree, not right over the altar! Off to the side is fine.
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Xantippe
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Unfortunately, toddlers loooove hymnals.
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Reuben_J
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Nobody is paid for playing music and singing in our parish. I think we are just blessed to have very dedicated choirs for free.
Our cathedral have a capacity for about slightly more than two thousand people. We have four masses during weekend and each has a choir of their own. They got their own organists and leaders. All are volunteers.
I guess it is about standard and expectation. People come for the mass and sing along with the choir, and that’s about it. As far as I know, there is no issue with the choir or the songs being sung.
People just go to the mass and go along with what is done.
Our cathedral have a capacity for about slightly more than two thousand people. We have four masses during weekend and each has a choir of their own. They got their own organists and leaders. All are volunteers.
I guess it is about standard and expectation. People come for the mass and sing along with the choir, and that’s about it. As far as I know, there is no issue with the choir or the songs being sung.
People just go to the mass and go along with what is done.
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
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Unfortunately, parents do not have enough arms and toddlers who might take 6 years to put on their jacket are faster than the speed of light during Mass and loooove to destroy hymnals pages and bang them in the holders like drums.
There. Fixed it so those without kids understand.
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ktmeyer
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EXACTLY!!! Those projected lyrics are SUCH a blessing to me in this phase of life. Well, most of my phases…I have four kids ranging from 18 yrs to 9months, so it’s been a long stretch, lol. I absolutely utilize that projector so I can hold baby and not have baby rip out pages from the hymnal. And my 7 yr old can follow along without worrying about jumping from verse to verse properly. And I am also hugely blessed by the ability to take communion on the tongue when I have a grabby baby or toddler in my arms, which no one has ever denied me despite it not being the norm in my parish.Unfortunately, parents do not have enough arms and toddlers who might take 6 years to put on their jacket are faster than the speed of light during Mass and loooove to destroy hymnals pages and bang them in the holders like drums.
There. Fixed it so those without kids understand.
But the altar is in the middle, the projected lyrics and such are on each side, not right above it. And we have SUPER high ceilings, so plenty of room. This photo doesn’t do the church justice, it has been remodeled since this was taken, with extra woodwork and such around the stained glass and a new marble altar, etc. It’s breathtaking now. But this does show how the projected images are placed. https://annunciationorlando.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/img_562e903ab19c5.png
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misstherese
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I think most traditionalists are from the U.S. Being from the U.S., we are pretty much surrounded by protestants so we don’t really have that sort of heritage of culture here.
I do think there is a real issue with those who would be considered rad trads, calling the pope antipope or that the last several popes were not actual popes or that the mass is invalid. It’s absurd and scandalous. But to simply express concern on a Catholic forum about such changes where the Church is fallible i think is not scandalous but advantageous to discuss such concerns and come to a sort of agreement.
I also don’t think it was Vatican II, but the relative time. People were excited for change where it wasn’t warranted. Some things in the mass werent even apart of Vatican II but was a result of the times.
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