Is the Church Leaving Me?

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misstherese said:
But to simply express concern on a Catholic forum about such changes where the Church is fallible i think is not scandalous but advantageous to discuss such concerns and come to a sort of agreement.
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You are absolutely right! How didn’t I understand this before? The amount of it caught me by surprise, and the number of folks here bashing those arguments at the church was shocking. Every other thread contained these same arguments, a number of them with mothers, or youngsters, trying to understand what to tell their children…So I felt obligated to respond.

General note: All “attacks against the church” are generally labeled “deleterious” and all “defenses” labeled “apologetic”. Forming two opposing arsenals or syllabus. The thing is: in Europe a lot of people also bash at the church, but here the attacks are different and actually more laborious to refute.

Just know, there is a formal defense for every bash against the church. If they say the catholic church is wrong, over 99% of the time it’s a misleading lie.
 
ktmeyer said:
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Xanthippe_Voorhees:
Unfortunately, parents do not have enough arms and toddlers who might take 6 years to put on their jacket are faster than the speed of light during Mass and loooove to destroy hymnals pages and bang them in the holders like drums.

There. Fixed it so those without kids understand.🤣
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EXACTLY!!! Those projected lyrics are SUCH a blessing to me in this phase of life. Well, most of my phases…I have four kids ranging from 18 yrs to 9months, so it’s been a long stretch, lol. I absolutely utilize that projector so I can hold baby and not have baby rip out pages from the hymnal. And my 7 yr old can follow along without worrying about jumping from verse to verse properly. And I am also hugely blessed by the ability to take communion on the tongue when I have a grabby baby or toddler in my arms, which no one has ever denied me despite it not being the norm in my parish.

But the altar is in the middle, the projected lyrics and such are on each side, not right above it. And we have SUPER high ceilings, so plenty of room. This photo doesn’t do the church justice, it has been remodeled since this was taken, with extra woodwork and such around the stained glass and a new marble altar, etc. It’s breathtaking now. But this does show how the projected images are placed. https://annunciationorlando.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/img_562e903ab19c5.png
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I totally get it.

I prefer to receive in the hand, but received on the tongue when I need to. Which is basically from the time the baby is born until they start trying to steal the Host.

sigh

Mass was not created with parents in mind!
 
Personally I would have a huge problem with a parish paying an musician more than it pays it’s priest or other professional staff. But then again I have never believed music to be the focus of the Mass. It’s great, good, okay, poor, or bad, but all that really matters is being there to worship and receive our Lord.
 
I understand your sentiment, but at the same time the “laborer is worthy of his wages”. If the normal salary for a professional musician is say $75k a year, then I’d say the Church paying one $70k a year is perfectly acceptable.

Imagine if the Church hires a construction company to work on the church building - should nobody on the construction crew average more than $10/hour because that’s what the Priest makes? By no means. If the average tradesmen expects $30 an hour, the Church should pay them a minimum of $20 an hour, not $10 an hour because that’s what the Priest makes. The laborer is worthy of his wages.
 
I agree tradesmen should be paid their due wages. But constructing a new building or repairing a critical part of the building is much different than a musician. We must have a safe building but a paid professional musician at such a cost is not critical to a Mass.
 
The Cohen song called Hallelujah is a love song, about a woman. Not about God. The composer has said so.
 
The Cohen “Hallelujah” is NOT a Christmas song, nor really a religious one. It is one of sexual obsession. Some have taken the music, which is beautiful, and changed the words to be more of a religious song.
 
It doesn’t really matter who the composer was or who it was written for.

If the Church wants to adapt a song to be used in the Liturgy, she possesses the authority to do so.

Which is the reason why you’ll find Martin Luthers “a mighty bulwark is our God” in the official English version of the Liturgy of the Hours. Holy Mother Church can and does adapt and Catholicize non Catholic things to become Catholic.

Same thing she’s done since ancient days with pagan temples. She adapted the Pantheon in Rome and turned it into a Catholic Church.

Jesus draws all things into himself and sanctifies them. Almost anything can be drawn into the Church and Christianized. The entire Creation is undergoing a process of Divinization, and the whole Cosmos will be renewed at the glorious Parousia of Christ.
 
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If the lyrics have been adapted, that I could see. But as it is written it is totally inappropriate.
 
Horton said:
The Cohen “Hallelujah” is NOT a Christmas song, nor really a religious one. It is one of sexual obsession. Some have taken the music, which is beautiful, and changed the words to be more of a religious song.
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It makes no difference what the original songs author or intent was.

The Church reserves the right to subsume things into the Body of Christ and sanctify them.

The entire Incarnation of Christ was about taking the profane and fallen and making it sacred and glorified.

The Church could obtain copyright permission to take “halleluiah it’s raining men”, and Christianize it and make it “halleluiah it’s raining Grace”, and that would be fully Orthodox and Catholic.
 
I’ve never heard the song and I had no idea so I just looked up the lyrics.

The lyrics would DEFINITELY need to be adapted and Christianized.

So if Cohens Hallelujah was simply sung as is, I would say that would be blasphemous and wildly inappropriate.

If it was adapted and Christianized, I’d be on board with it.
 
To “adapt and Christianize” lyrics to a song that is protected by US Copyright laws is breaking a just law (unless I am doing a parody). It is a sin to disobey laws unless those laws are in themselves unjust. So, monkeying around with Mr Cohen’s legal property is not something a church choir director has any business doing.
 
That’s why I made this comment:

The Church could obtain copyright permission to take “halleluiah it’s raining men”, and Christianize it and make it “halleluiah it’s raining Grace”, and that would be fully Orthodox and Catholic.

The Church Christianizing things is nothing new. In fact, there are multiple instances in the Bible itself such as in Genesis and Psalms where the Sacred Author adapted and Judaized pagan myths or pagan hymns to Judaism.
 
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Memories of a South Park episode when Cartman realized he just had to replace one word to turn love songs into prazenworshup songs.
 
My guess is that if Cohen’s “Hallelujah” were used in church, let’s say as a communion reflection or whatever, you could cut out a couple of the middle verses and end up with something vaguely church-appropriate.

I would still not be a fan of using that particular song, as not only is it clearly about an earthly love affair, but also it is currently associated with a political position/ event and does not belong in a church service that likely includes people of all different political views.
 
HIs Hallelujah has been adapted for weddings, funerals, Easter and Christmas.
It’s been recorded a zillion times, and even elementary schools cover it.
It’s everywhere.
Few notes. Easy to follow. People love it. The “band” at my parish asked if they could sing it, and told them no.
I like it, it’s ok for the radio with the Christian lyrics, but not for Mass. Especially when there is so much wonderful Christmas music that people kind of expect to hear.

ETA:
I think the fad started when some Irish priest sang a version he wrote for a couple’s wedding and the video went viral.
 
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I’m not trying to start an argument. I was just saying the original song, as written by Cohen, is not a religious song. Many people who have sang the song believe it is a religious song due to some biblical events mentioned.

Every time I saw a child sing this on video I just cringed. Here was a child sing a song about sexual obsession.
 
AJC said:
Funny you should say that. This diocese is “reaching out to the young.”

By visiting a local tap room once a month and providing a speaker. The thing is, I know some of these speakers and would be interested in hearing what they have to say. But alas, I am not 18 and I am well past 30. So essentially it’s my Bishop separating the generations.

Oh, if your 55+ you can have lunch, which you must pay for, (how do the small Protestant churches do stuff and never have an up front charge or require a donation?) and sit around with a bunch of folks like me and listen to someone tell you about some health issue. How come they don’t offer us beer and good Catholic speakers?
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Having Theology on Tap for entire parishes would be awesome.

But for some reason, a lot parish volunteers & leaders often think it’s a bad idea for some reason, so the only groups who do it are the young adult leaders.
 
Greetings AJC. - PART 1:
Thank you for your thread. It is painful to read, but real, and important. I am as sorry to read your OP, because it is real, and painfully so, as I am in reading most of the responses critical to you. These responses, probably well-intentioned, come (I think) from an inability to really understand the depths of your angst – angst which comes from grace, I believe: grace to know what IS happening, for the good and not for the good, inappropriately mixed together, in the common celebrations of Holy Mass as we have these days in this culture.

I’ll briefly comment on several of your points, and then, afterward, I’ll offer what keeps me in the Church regardless of the disordered contradictions and imperfections present.
  1. “I no longer recognize our beautiful Roman Catholic Church.” I understand. I do continue to recognize the beautiful Roman Catholic Church, regardless of the presence of disordered contradictions and imperfections, because I concentrate on the interior of the Mass – the substance – I struggle with the “accidents”, the externals, the surface of things. But in the final analysis, there is nowhere to go:
Joh 6:67 Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also wish to go away?”
Joh 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life;
Joh 6:69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
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  1. “The focus no longer seems to be the Gospel of Jesus Christ but the Gospel of What Would Jesus Do?” Yes, and the problem with this is, so many parishioners hearing it interpret it as “What would Jesus do in MY personal [poorly educated, often badly formed] opinion?” So many Catholic adults today do not know the Catholic Faith! Many “Catholic” opinions are effectively “nonCatholic” opinions, gleaned from years of mixed religious messages as likely coming from outside as from inside the Church.
  2. “Priests give tepid or nondescript homilies.” Many are deficient as homilists, not because they are not well-enough “trained” to give homilies! The “training” today is probably better than it ever has been! The problem is lack of in-depth spiritual formation, which would establish holy wisdom and prudence in the man! Without spiritual depth, what good is training in public speaking? Training in how to “hold an audience”, without planting deeply in the man spiritual substance, an interior supernatural life, such training is enabling – and maybe even tempting – him to become a mere performer, literally a “hypocrite”, an actor.
– Continued in “PART 2”
 
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