Is the Mass Biblical?

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Luke1:48:

My bro, God invented time, this sacrifice is perpetual, the priest re-presents that sacrifice, he doesn’t make a new one. This does not go against the once an for all, because it is not a new sacrifice.

Ok… ok…

I just want to know if the Mass is a sacrifice.

Did the Sacrifice happen ONCE FOR ALL on the Cross, or not?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Luke1:48:

The book of Revelation shows the Lord Slain perpetually on the Altar.

You mean that the Lord is ALWAYS slain, right?

Well, I heard that you believe the Bread and the Cup BECOME the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ ONLY WHEN THE PRIEST SAYS THE WORDS.
Is the Christ slain BEFORE the priest says the words, or He just becomes slain AFTER the priest says those words?

In other words: is the Mass that PERPETUAL Sacrifice, or is it just BECOMING a Sacrifice?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

16The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

I am trying to understand you:

Is the cup a PARTICIPATION in the Blood of Christ, or is it actually the Blood itself?

Is the bread a PARTICIPATION in the Body of Christ, or is it actually the Body itself?

In other words: is the Mass telling us about the one Sacrifice of the Cross and making us participate in it IN FAITH, or is it a sacrifice itself?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

nobody:

Tyler,

I suggest reading the entire book of Hebrews, or at least all of chapter nine, so that you see that he was explaining to the Jews that their sacrifices of the blood of calves, goats, etc., are no longer necessary, because of the sacrifice once and for all of the blood of Christ. Also, continue reading into chapter 10, and you see him encouraging the hebrews to “continue to assemble”. I think there he was dispelling their fears that the mass was a re-sacrifice of Jesus.

Hope that helps.

I thought that you found something about the Mass in the Epistle to the Hebrews that you are telling us to read it entirely… But in the end we find out that YOU THINK there he was dispelling their fears that the mass was a re-sacrifice of Jesus…

YOU THINK…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Pug]

YAQUBOS:

So can I conclude in brief that the Mass is a SYMBOL of the one Sacrifice that was presented by the One Priest Jesus Christ on the Cross?

So, in brief, you are NOT presenting any sacrifice in the Mass, right?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Just a symbol? No, I do not see just a symbol. It is real.

I used the word symbol because in the mass itself, although there is a cup and a host, the cup is not just the blood of Jesus. He is there body and blood under the cup. This is because he is raised from the dead and glorified. He cannot be separated into parts. He isn’t going to die again or anything. So the separation that is being shown by the separate cup and host is not really a separation of his body from his blood. This is part of why it is called “unbloody”, as I understand it.

Jesus is still a priest. From Hebrews 7:

24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Also, Christ still a victim (sacrifice). From Rev 5:6: a Lamb standing, as if slain.

The mass has the Lamb present. Paschal lambs are sacrifices. Christ is the one who offers himself (he’s the lamb and the priest making intercession for us). Christ standing before the Father as priest and victim is made present to us in the mass. This is the best I can put it in my own words.

Somewhat more officially, there are three things about the mass: it is a re-presentation, it is a memorial of his death and resurrection, and the mass is a way in which the merits of the cross are applied to us.

I only offer the sacrifice of the mass in the sense that I offer myself wholly to God and unite myself with Christ. I guess also I do in that I am united with the mystical body of Christ. I unite myself with the prayers during mass, trying to praise God and such.

I want to say more, but I am out of time right now (he he he, going to mass). I am not great with sacramental theology. I am better with moral theology, so I’m sure someone else can do better with this than me. I need to brush up! Hopefully this is not too muddled, but I didn’t want to leave you hanging.

 

[yinekka]

Tyler,

Be careful of proof texting - the practise of taking a couple of lines from the bible and applying it universally. The Catholic Church was founded by Christ over 2000 years ago and she has had all of those years to study and interpret the bible. As Catholics we should be guided by the 2000 years of experience of the Church.

Now as to those quotes from Hebrews. If you read Hebrews 9 and 10 you will see that Paul is talking about the fact that the Christ redeemed the world, he is not talking about the command at the Last Supper ‘do this in memory of me.’

For an examination of the Mass see Thomas Nash’s book ‘The Biblical Roots of the Mass’ and Scott Hahn’s book "The Lamb’s Supper.’

 

[Beaver]

The Marriage Feast of the Lamb of God is also the New Covenant with the church. To understand this we must consider Gen 15:9-21.

9 He answered him, “Bring me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old she-goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtle-dove, and a young pigeon.” 10 He brought him all these, split them in two, and placed each half opposite the other; but the birds he did not cut up. 11 Birds of prey swooped down on the carcasses, but Abram stayed with them. 12 As the sun was about to set, a trance fell upon Abram, and a deep, terrifying darkness enveloped him. 13 Then the LORD said to Abram: “Know for certain that your descendants shall be aliens in a land not their own, where they shall be enslaved and oppressed for four hundred years. 14 But I will bring judgment on the nation they must serve, and in the end they will depart with great wealth. 15 You, however, shall join your forefathers in peace; you shall be buried at a contented old age. 16 In the fourth time-span the others shall come back here; the wickedness of the Amorites will not have reached its full measure until then.” 17 When the sun had set and it was dark, there appeared a smoking brazier and a flaming torch, which passed between those pieces. 18 It was on that occasion that the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the Great River (the Euphrates), 19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

In the New Covenant we see the priest divide the body of Christ in two and then display the two halves. Then he say “Behold the Lamb of God”. Just like the halves of the animals of the Old Covenant. This is so just like Abraham; we can enter into the New Covenant. It is so important to understand that this happen at the Lamb’s Supper. At this Feast we enter into the New Covenant with God.

 

[AmyS]

You know I have started to respond, but, now that I think about it my response has more to do with Tradition… Anyways, I will still post. If you look at any picture drawn of the Temple holding the Arc of the Covenant it is set up very much the same as the Catholic church, Jesus is the new Convenant…

Anyways, I think someone else said that the words that Jesus said on Holy Thursday at the Last Supper are the exact same words that are said at the Mass today. The same elements too.

 

[AmyS]

Beaver:

The Marriage Feast of the Lamb of God is also the New Covenant with the church. To understand this we must consider Gen 15:9-21.

9 He answered him, “Bring me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old she-goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtle-dove, and a young pigeon.” 10 He brought him all these, split them in two, and placed each half opposite the other; but the birds he did not cut up. 11 Birds of prey swooped down on the carcasses, but Abram stayed with them. 12 As the sun was about to set, a trance fell upon Abram, and a deep, terrifying darkness enveloped him. 13 Then the LORD said to Abram: “Know for certain that your descendants shall be aliens in a land not their own, where they shall be enslaved and oppressed for four hundred years. 14 But I will bring judgment on the nation they must serve, and in the end they will depart with great wealth. 15 You, however, shall join your forefathers in peace; you shall be buried at a contented old age. 16 In the fourth time-span the others shall come back here; the wickedness of the Amorites will not have reached its full measure until then.” 17 When the sun had set and it was dark, there appeared a smoking brazier and a flaming torch, which passed between those pieces. 18 It was on that occasion that the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the Great River (the Euphrates), 19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

In the New Covenant we see the priest divide the body of Christ in two and then display the two halves. Then he say “Behold the Lamb of God”. Just like the halves of the animals of the Old Covenant. This is so just like Abraham; we can enter into the New Covenant. It is so important to understand that this happen at the Lamb’s Supper. At this Feast we enter into the New Covenant with God.

Great post!!!

 

[Rae]

I would recommed reading Scott Hahn’s book, “The Lamb’s Supper”.

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobis Cvm!

Perhaps I can be of some assistance.

YAQUBOS:

As I am trying to understand what you believe exactly, so I have to ask now:

Does this mean that Jesus is offering TWO Sacrifices? One bloody and one unbloody?

No Jesus only offered one sacrifice. Christ offered himself on the cross, bled, and died and this sacrifice is eternal and perfect. The priest offers Christ up under the changed species of bread and wine. Christ is risen, he bleeds no more. If Christ is risen and bleeds no more, then it is only natural that the offering up of Christ would be unbloody. The priest offers up Christ, whose sacrifice on Golgatha was eternal. It is not a new sacrifice.

My, my, someone has a very Christian tone today.

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobis Cvm!
YAQUOBS:

Ok… ok…

I just want to know if the Mass is a sacrifice.

Did the Sacrifice happen ONCE FOR ALL on the Cross, or not?

Yes, every Catholic believes that, I see that you are not listening to everyone here.

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobis Cvm!

YAQUBOS:

You mean that the Lord is ALWAYS slain, right?

Well, I heard that you believe the Bread and the Cup BECOME the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ ONLY WHEN THE PRIEST SAYS THE WORDS.
Is the Christ slain BEFORE the priest says the words, or He just becomes slain AFTER the priest says those words?

I see you are indeed not listening to anyone here. As everyone said here including the Epistle to the Hebrews, Christ’s sacrifice on Golgatha is perfect and eternal. Christ is not slain again at the Mass, just look at what everyone said here. Golgatha’s sacrifice is eternal, Hebrews does not say that this same one and only eternal sacrifice cannot be offered up throughout eternity. When the Priests says the words of consecration, the gifts become the body and blood of Christ. Christ has already been slain, he is not being slain again, just offered up. Luke1:48 must have intended to say that the sacrifice is perpetual and that this sacrifice is eternally presented before God on the Altar before his throne, as the Apocalypse stated, thank you Luke 1:48!

In other words: is the Mass that PERPETUAL Sacrifice, or is it just BECOMING a Sacrifice?

Perpetual:

1. 
   *]**Lasting for eternity. **
   *]Continuing or lasting for an indefinitely long time.
   *]Instituted to be in effect or have tenure for an unlimited duration: a treaty of perpetual friendship.
   *]Continuing without interruption. See Synonyms at continual.
   *]Flowering throughout the growing season.
   
   http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Perpetual
   
   Your wording is wrong, Golgatha is perpetual, the mass just represents Golgatha, which is the perpetual sacrifice.

 

[Pug]

So, in brief, you are NOT presenting any sacrifice in the Mass, right?

No, there is a presentation of a sacrifice there at mass.

Ah. I found a quote about this. “The faithful indeed, by virtue of their royal priesthood, participate in the offering of the Eucharist.” From one of the Vatican 2 docs, LG 10. I,* little ol’ me*, am participating in the offering there at mass.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

Pug:

Somewhat more officially, there are three things about the mass: it is a re-presentation, it is a memorial of his death and resurrection, and the mass is a way in which the merits of the cross are applied to us.

What do you mean by re-presentation? Is this the word representation, or it means “presenting again”? Do you mean the Mass is presenting AGAIN the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

In other words: is the Mass that PERPETUAL Sacrifice, or is it just BECOMING a Sacrifice?

Perpetual:

1. 
   *]**Lasting for eternity. **
   *]Continuing or lasting for an indefinitely long time.
   *]Instituted to be in effect or have tenure for an unlimited duration: a treaty of perpetual friendship.
   *]Continuing without interruption. See Synonyms at continual.
   *]Flowering throughout the growing season.
   
   http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Perpetual
   
   Your wording is wrong, Golgatha is perpetual, the mass just represents Golgatha, which is the perpetual sacrifice.

1. 1. In the definition you quoted, you typed in bold the first definition, while I was asking about the fourth: “Continuing without interruption”.
   2. You say “Golgatha is perpetual, the mass just represents Golgatha, which is the perpetual sacrifice”.
   Ok. Thank you for the clarification. So it JUST REPRESENTS…
   
   In Love,
   Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

Pug:

No, there is a presentation of a sacrifice there at mass.

Please, tell me once for all: is the Mass a Sacrifice or a representation of the ONCE FOR ALL Sacrifice of the Cross?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Fergal]

Ecclesia de Eucharistia states it best when the Holy Father states:

“He was crucified, he suffered death and was buried; he descended to the dead; on the third day he rose again”. The words of the profession of faith are echoed by the words of contemplation and proclamation: “This is the wood of the Cross, on which hung the Saviour of the world. Come, let us worship”. This is the invitation which the Church extends to all in the afternoon hours of Good Friday. She then takes up her song during the Easter season in order to proclaim: “The Lord is risen from the tomb; for our sake he hung on the Cross, Alleluia”.
5. “Mysterium fidei! - The Mystery of Faith!”. When the priest recites or chants these words, all present acclaim: “We announce your death, O Lord, and we proclaim your resurrection, until you come in glory”.

In these or similar words the Church, while pointing to Christ in the mystery of his passion,* also reveals her own mystery*:* Ecclesia de Eucharistia*. By the gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost the Church was born and set out upon the pathways of the world, yet a decisive moment in her taking shape was certainly the institution of the Eucharist in the Upper Room. Her foundation and wellspring is the whole Triduum paschale, but this is as it were gathered up, foreshadowed and “concentrated’ for ever in the gift of the Eucharist. In this gift Jesus Christ entrusted to his Church the perennial making present of the paschal mystery. With it he brought about a mysterious “oneness in time” between that Triduum and the passage of the centuries.

The thought of this leads us to profound amazement and gratitude. In the paschal event and the Eucharist which makes it present throughout the centuries, there is a truly enormous “capacity” which embraces all of history as the recipient of the grace of the redemption. This amazement should always fill the Church assembled for the celebration of the Eucharist. But in a special way it should fill the minister of the Eucharist. For it is he who, by the authority given him in the sacrament of priestly ordination, effects the consecration. It is he who says with the power coming to him from Christ in the Upper Room: “This is my body which will be given up for you This is the cup of my blood, poured out for you…”. The priest says these words, or rather* he puts his voice at the disposal of the One who spoke these words in the Upper Room* and who desires that they should be repeated in every generation by all those who in the Church ministerially share in his priesthood.

---

Cont next post…

 

[Fergal]

Later its states…

The Church has received the Eucharist from Christ her Lord not as one gift – however precious – among so many others, but as the gift par excellence, for it is the gift of himself, of his person in his sacred humanity, as well as the gift of his saving work. Nor does it remain confined to the past, since “all that Christ is – all that he did and suffered for all men – participates in the divine eternity, and so transcends all times”.10
When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, the memorial of her Lord’s death and resurrection, this central event of salvation becomes really present and “the work of our redemption is carried out”.11 This sacrifice is so decisive for the salvation of the human race that Jesus Christ offered it and returned to the Father only *after he had left us a means of sharing in it *as if we had been present there. Each member of the faithful can thus take part in it and inexhaustibly gain its fruits. This is the faith from which generations of Christians down the ages have lived. The Church’s Magisterium has constantly reaffirmed this faith with joyful gratitude for its inestimable gift.12 I wish once more to recall this truth and to join you, my dear brothers and sisters, in adoration before this mystery: a great mystery, a mystery of mercy. What more could Jesus have done for us? Truly, in the Eucharist, he shows us a love which goes “to the end” (cf. Jn 13:1), a love which knows no measure.

1. This aspect of the universal charity of the Eucharistic Sacrifice is based on the words of the Saviour himself. In instituting it, he did not merely say: “This is my body”, “this is my blood”, but went on to add: “which is given for you”, “which is poured out for you” (Lk 22:19-20). Jesus did not simply state that what he was giving them to eat and drink was his body and his blood; he also expressed its sacrificial meaning and made sacramentally present his sacrifice which would soon be offered on the Cross for the salvation of all. “The Mass is at the same time, and inseparably, the sacrificial memorial in which the sacrifice of the Cross is perpetuated and the sacred banquet of communion with the Lord’s body and blood”.13

 

[Fergal]

The Church constantly draws her life from the redeeming sacrifice; she approaches it not only through faith-filled remembrance, but also through a real contact, since* this sacrifice is made present ever anew*, sacramentally perpetuated, in every community which offers it at the hands of the consecrated minister. The Eucharist thus applies to men and women today the reconciliation won once for all by Christ for mankind in every age. “The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are* one single sacrifice*”.14 Saint John Chrysostom put it well: “We always offer the same Lamb, not one today and another tomorrow, but always the same one. For this reason the sacrifice is always only one… Even now we offer that victim who was once offered and who will never be consumed”.15

The Mass makes present the sacrifice of the Cross; it does not add to that sacrifice nor does it multiply it.16 What is repeated is its* memorial* celebration, its “commemorative representation” (memorialis demonstratio),17 which makes Christ’s one, definitive redemptive sacrifice always present in time. The sacrificial nature of the Eucharistic mystery cannot therefore be understood as something separate, independent of the Cross or only indirectly referring to the sacrifice of Calvary.

1. By virtue of its close relationship to the sacrifice of Golgotha, the Eucharist is* a sacrifice in the strict sense*, and not only in a general way, as if it were simply a matter of Christ’s offering himself to the faithful as their spiritual food. The gift of his love and obedience to the point of giving his life (cf. Jn 10:17-18) is in the first place a gift to his Father. Certainly it is a gift given for our sake, and indeed that of all humanity (cf. Mt 26:28; Mk 14:24; Lk 22:20; Jn 10:15), yet it is* first and foremost a gift to the Father*: “asacrifice that the Father accepted, giving, in return for this total self-giving by his Son, who ‘became obedient unto death’ (Phil 2:8), his own paternal gift, that is to say the grant of new immortal life in the resurrection”.18