Is the Mass Biblical?

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Todd Easton:

Jesus says something similar in the parable of the wedding feast and the guest who got in without a proper wedding garment in Matt 22:1-14. He also says something similar in Matt 5:23-24:

23So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

In order to receive Holy Communion in a worthy manner, a Catholic must, by the grace of God, be in what we call “the state of grace.” To be in the state of grace, one must be spiritually alive, i.e., have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (see Rom 8:9-13). We first receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at Baptism (see John 3:5 and Acts 2:38). After Baptism, we remain in the state of grace indefinitely, except if we deliberately commit serious sin, which is also called deadly or mortal sin (see 1 John 5:14-17). In committing mortal sin, we lose the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, fall out of the state of grace, become spiritually dead, hellbound (see Heb 10:24-31 and 1 John 3:4-10).

The normal way for us to be restored to the state of grace after committing a mortal sin is through repentance and the Sacrament of Confession (see 1 John 1:19 and James 5:14-16). In Confession, we confess our sins to God and to a priest, his minister of reconciliation (see 2 Cor 5:13), express our sorrow (contrition) for our sins, our resolve, with the help of God’s grace, not to sin again and our resolve to do penance for our sins. If he believes we are truly sincere, the priest then, by authority he received at his ordination to forgive sins, forgives (absolves) us of our sins in God’s name (see Matt 18:17 and John 20:22-23), and assigns to us a penance. The penance is to help us repair the damage our sins have caused to the community and to help free us from our attachment to sin (see Luke 3:8).
Was anyone worthy to have Jesus die for them in the first place? It’s not about our worthiness but about God’s love for us.

You mean we must be ALIVE BEFORE coming to the ONE SACRIFICE OF JESUS?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[JeffBennett]

Responding to: *Let me get this well: is it a MEMORIAL or a SACRIFICE?
*
When you do the Mass, are you presenting a sacrifice to God?

It is both.

First, memorial:

It’s critical to understand what the Jews meant by the word “remember.” Today is Pearl Harbor day, we remember it. We remember the Alamo, 9/11, and our War Dead on MEMORIAL day. By this we mean that we call it to the fronts of our minds, and we contemplate its significance in life. But then, once we have spent some sufficient time on that subject matter, we move on with life.

That is how we use the word remember. This is not how jews used the word “remember,” and not how Jesus was using it that day.

Think of the times in the Old Testament where God “remembered his covenenant” (often just when he was about to wipe out the tribes and all of their history!). The Jews’ idea of “remembering” was much more comprehensive than anything that we do on the 4th of July. God was not on the edge of wiping out the tribes and then roasted wienies instead.

“Remembering” to the Jews meant to reaffirm, to re-swear an oath, to reaccomplish or re-establish (not to imply that something was ever gone). Whenever a man and his wife “remember” their marital covenant they re-accomplish the act that consumated their vows on their wedding night. That is a physical action that has the same significance as their spoken oaths. They, in all reality and fact, re-consumate their vows.

In American family law, the marital act can legally obliterate any complaint that a spouse may want to use as grounds for divorce. Let’s say that a spouse commits adultery, the other sues for divorce, and then the two of them end up back in bed together then the judge can dismiss the action. The marital act reconsumates the vows, it is an act of forgiveness and acceptance. It removes the grounds for divorce.

Whenever God “remembered” his covenants they had not slipped his mind. He firmly and truly re-covenanted himself to his people. This is what Jesus was asking for at the Institution of the Eucharist / Last Supper. He wanted us to enter the new covenant and then to re-covenant ourselves to him periodically, as often as once a day.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 10 - 11 that we participate in the body and blood of Christ when we take the bread and the cup. Participate is a huge word there, in the middle of a Passover Meal we are participating, we are playing an active role, in the “remembering” of the Mass. We are not simply reminiscing fondly, or waxing nostalgic, of the day before Jesus’ Passion.

Next - Sacrifice
Christ is in Heaven, he can’t be hurt or nailed to another tree. However the Sacrifice which was once for all is not over and done with. It is once for all, and still valid, still going on. It is in Heaven, in the eternal moment, where there is no such thing as time. Christ’s sacrifice from Calvary is eternally offered from Heaven.

In the Mass Christ offers us his sacrifice from Calvary and we also offer a sacrifice to Christ.

He offers us his body, blood, soul, and divinity. We offer him Bread, Wine, a little water mingled with the wine, and our selves (Four for four, even exchange, right? Actually we get the better end of it ; ) ).

This exchange of Jesus for us and us for him, an exchange of persons, makes this sacrifice (in two directions) a covenental exchange. We place our offerings into the hands of Christ, just as fish and loaves were placed into the hands of Christ and just as a bride offers her gifts to her husband.

It is a memorial, in the broad and expanded meaning of that word, and it is a sacrifice. It is both. Read 1st Corinthians chapters 10 and 11 for a description of the Mass. Read Revelation for a description of the Mass that John saw in Heaven. Also the story of the Road to Emmaus (sp?).

Hope that this helps.

 

[MarkPerz]

I think it is important here to understand that the word “sacrifice” can be used both as a noun and as a verb. Jesus’ crucifixion was both. As a verb, Jesus’ sacrifice was the act of His giving up his life at the crucifixion. As a noun, the sacrifice was the victim. The victim was *Jesus, *the paschal lamb.

At Mass, Jesus is not sacrificed (verb) or crucified again. We offer (re-present) to God the paschal lamb, the “noun” sacrifice of Jesus’ body and blood.

 

[MariaG]

posted by YAQUBOS

You mean we must be ALIVE BEFORE coming to the ONE SACRIFICE OF JESUS?

Interesting way to word it. I did put no, because in the sense that I think you mean it. You seem to be asking do we have to be saved before we can be saved. If not you may wish to clarify.

However, the truth is Yes. Since Catholic Christians teach and have taught since the time of the apostles that a person is born again through baptism. Since an unbaptized person cannot receive communion, yes, a person must be born again into the family of God before recieving communion. Adult or infant regenerative baptism is Scriptural and historical and has been taught as the meaning of born again by all Christians until after the reformation.

Born again=Baptism

A person must be baptized to recieve communion in the Catholic Church.

Since I believe this is not really what you mean, I will expand.

Does this mean that an unbaptized person cannot partake in the saving Grace of Christ’s one sacrifice? NO!

Does this mean that an unbaptized person who dies before recieving baptism but claims the saving grace of His blood will not be saved? NO!

I hope this helps and I hope I did not inadvertently mistate Catholic Christian teachings.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[jimmy]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Ok… ok…

I just want to know if the Mass is a sacrifice.

Did the Sacrifice happen ONCE FOR ALL on the Cross, or not?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Yes. there was one sacrifice. But the problem is that you interpret the once as like a point in time. That once for all is perpetual. It would be more like. WWII was over once and for all in 1945 but that is not something that is a singularity in time like you percieve it. WWII is still over today.

That is kind of like the sacrifice of Christ, it happened in AD33 but it is a perpetual sacrifice. In revelations it mentions the slain lamb that is standing.

There was one sacrifice that is re-presented to all the people of Christ’ Church throughout time. You must remember that time was created by God, so he can do as he pleases and his sacrifice can be perpetual if he wills it.

 

[uniChristian]

TylerWS:

Hebrews 9:25-10:18 and specifically Hebrews 9:24-26
These verses seem to contradict the Catholic Church’s teaching concerning the Sacrifice of the Mass. Could someone please explain these verses and how the Catholic Church can keep its doctrine concerning the Eucharist in light of them?

The Romanist Church puts Oral Tradition on an equal footing with the Word of God. The Romanist Church also has its own canon thereby declaring Dogma and Doctrine on an equal footing with the Word of God.

 

[uniChristian]

Pug:

I’m not sure which aspect you see as being a contradiction. I’ll guess the repeated aspect.

Catholics do not believe that each mass is a new or different sacrifice. There is just the one (Jesus on cross). The mass is connected to that very singular one sacrifice. It is a memorial of it. It also makes Jesus (the one real offering) present in a true and real way.

Jesus is present in a real and true way, in the Spirit and not in the host.

 

[Keith_Strohm]

uniChristian:

The Romanist Church puts Oral Tradition on an equal footing with the Word of God. The Romanist Church also has its own canon thereby declaring Dogma and Doctrine on an equal footing with the Word of God.

UniChristian,

What did the Church do for the first 50-80 years before the texts of the Gospels were written down? Oral Traditions preceded the written text of the New Testament. Does that mean that the Church of the 75 AD was more of a true Church than the Church of 15 AD because they had the Word of God written down for them? What is it about putting pen on paper that makes the Word of God more present in AD 75 than it was at AD 15? Was the very earliest Church hopelessly lost and befuddled without the New Testament texts? And how can we trust that the texts that are assembled in the Bible are actually the ones God intended to be there?

Catholics believe that both the Tradition and Scripture reflect the Word of God because they are the Revelation of Christ to the world. There really is no dichotomy.

Keith

 

[Keith_Strohm]

uniChristian:

Jesus is present in a real and true way, in the Spirit and not in the host.

My first attempt at proof-texting:

"I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.” The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?” Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. (John 6:51-56) NAB

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Keith Strohm:

My first attempt at proof-texting:

"I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.” The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?” Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. (John 6:51-56) NAB

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Notice unichristian did not reply to this one. I am on pins and needles. Is he or is he not going to attempt to say Jesus is lying? Or is he listening to Jesus?Let us pray for his understanding. God Bless

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

Dear MariaG, thank you for trying to explain…

My question was: You mean we must be ALIVE BEFORE coming to the ONE SACRIFICE OF JESUS?

Interesting way to word it. I did put no, because in the sense that I think you mean it. You seem to be asking do we have to be saved before we can be saved. If not you may wish to clarify.

I don’t mean anything else than to clarify what all were saying here. They say that the Mass is the SAME as the ONCE FOR ALL Sacrifice of the Cross. So I want to know if we must be alive before coming to this Sacrifice. We read in 1 Corinthians 11:27-28:

“Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.
But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.”

I asked in one of my previous replies: What’s the meaning of “unworthy manner”? How can someone be worthy of that?

To these questions, I received a long reply from Todd Easton in which he was explaining how we must be worthy of that Sacrifice. One of the things he said is the following:
Todd Easton:

In order to receive Holy Communion in a worthy manner, a Catholic must, by the grace of God, be in what we call “the state of grace.” To be in the state of grace, one must be spiritually alive, i.e., have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (see Rom 8:9-13).

That’s why I asked: You mean we must be ALIVE BEFORE coming to the ONE SACRIFICE OF JESUS?

What do YOU think, MariaG?

MariaG:

However, the truth is Yes. Since Catholic Christians teach and have taught since the time of the apostles that a person is born again through baptism. Since an unbaptized person cannot receive communion, yes, a person must be born again into the family of God before recieving communion. Adult or infant regenerative baptism is Scriptural and historical and has been taught as the meaning of born again by all Christians until after the reformation.

Born again=Baptism

A person must be baptized to recieve communion in the Catholic Church.

So you mean there IS in fact something we must do BEFORE coming to this ONE Sacrifice?

MariaG:

Since I believe this is not really what you mean, I will expand.

Does this mean that an unbaptized person cannot partake in the saving Grace of Christ’s one sacrifice? NO!

So can an unbaptized person eat the Bread and drink the Cup of the Lord in a worthy manner?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

So you mean there IS in fact something we must do BEFORE coming to this ONE Sacrifice?

You mean there is in fact something we must do before recieving this one true sacrfice? Yes, we need God’s infusing grace, if we do not have God’s grace, then we would be recieving him in unworthy manner.

YAQUBOS:

So can an unbaptized person eat the Bread and drink the Cup of the Lord in a worthy manner?

No, original sin has blocked God’s infusing grace, original sin must be washed away in the cleansing waters of Baptism, then God’s infusing grace can come into the soul. Then the born again can recieve the Risen Lord worthily.

 

[pgeorgejr]

The mass is quite Biblical, which I believe is the original question here. Even as a Protestant I get that.

On his web site, Scott Hahn has a great online course called “The Lamb’s Supper: The Bible and the Mass.” It’s free and takes you through the entire mass, revealing the Biblical basis for each part of the mass. Check it out: salvationhistory.com/online/beginner/begcourse2_home.cfm

I would also suggest actually going to mass if you’ve never been and really want to learn what it’s about.

Buck

 

[RBushlow]

uniChristian:

**TylerWS:
***Hebrews 9:25-10:18 and specifically Hebrews 9:24-26

---

thereby declaring Dogma and Doctrine on an equal footing with the Word of God.
*There is one sacrafice. God is not limited by time and place, God them. In the Devine Liturgy we are made present at the sacrafice of calvary. *
uni, Once again I must state, we are not all Roman. The Catholic Church encompases Byzantines, Maronite, Meklite and many other rites. Please educate yourself about this.
It was the Catholic Church which brought together the Books of the New Testament and defined the New Testament Canon. The fact is that the Holy Spirit guided the Catholic Church to recognize and determine the canon of the New Testaments in the year 382 at the synod of Rome, under Pope Damasus I. This decision was ratified again at the Catholic Church councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397 and 419). You, my friend, accept exactly the same books of the New Testament that Pope Damasus decreed were canonical, and no others.You need to do a little homework before making such statments as you have above. Please, don’t take my word for it, do the research yourself and find out.
May the peace of Jesus Christ be with you.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

You mean there is in fact something we must do before recieving this one true sacrfice? Yes, we need God’s infusing grace, if we do not have God’s grace, then we would be recieving him in unworthy manner.

I don’t see how God’s Grace is something we can DO…

Whatever… Please, can you explain how a person can have that Grace?
Psalm45:9:

No, original sin has blocked God’s infusing grace, original sin must be washed away in the cleansing waters of Baptism, then God’s infusing grace can come into the soul. Then the born again can recieve the Risen Lord worthily.

So you mean someone must have life BEFORE eating the Bread and drinking the Cup of the Lord?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

I don’t see how God’s Grace is something we can DO…

Whatever… Please, can you explain how a person can have that Grace?

Your perception of grace is most likely different then ours. Graces is not just God’s gratuitous good will towards humanity. When we refer to Grace, we refer to infusing grace. God’s loving attitude towards us, but it is also the way he pours it into our souls giving us life, which is received through the sacraments.

“`And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;yea, and on my menservants and my maidservants in those days I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.” (Acts 2:17-18)

“And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God with boldness.” (Acts: 4:31)

Infused Grace can be lost by serious sin:

“For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22)

Infused Grace comes from Faith and obedience in Christ:

“For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20)

Obedience to Christ includes Faith with Good Works:

“For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” (James 2:26)

YAQUBOS:

So you mean someone must have life BEFORE eating the Bread and drinking the Cup of the Lord?

We must have life at all times, each time we receive the Eucharist, the Grace gets stronger.

 

[Wil_Peregrin]

Yes. Because of the liturgy that John celebrated on Patmos, though I do not have a nice chart of the exact elements and order, and I really wish I did.

And also as the Augsberg Confession states “we receive the true body and blood of Jesus Christ under the form of bread and wine.”

You don’t have to use technical Aristotelian terms to say the same thing as they.

Or as Paul writes in 1 Corinthians, that we have koinonia with the blood of Christ and koinonia with the body of Christ. That passage is pretty clear.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Your perception of grace is most likely different then ours. Graces is not just God’s gratuitous good will towards humanity. When we refer to Grace, we refer to infusing grace. God’s loving attitude towards us, but it is also the way he pours it into our souls giving us life, which is received through the sacraments.

“`And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;yea, and on my menservants and my maidservants in those days I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.” (Acts 2:17-18)

“And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God with boldness.” (Acts: 4:31)

Infused Grace can be lost by serious sin:

“For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness;otherwise you too will be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22)

Infused Grace comes from Faith and obedience in Christ:

“For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20)

Obedience to Christ includes Faith with Good Works:

“For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” (James 2:26)

Ok. So we must DO God’s infusing grace BEFORE coming to the ONE SACRIFICE of Jesus Christ on the cross, right?

If yes, then please can you tell me if we can have that infusing grace BEFORE the grace of Salvation from sin?
Psalm45:9:

We must have life at all times, each time we receive the Eucharist, the Grace gets stronger.

So we must have life BEFORE Eucharist, right?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Church_Militant]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Ok. So we must DO God’s infusing grace BEFORE coming to the ONE SACRIFICE of Jesus Christ on the cross, right?

If yes, then please can you tell me if we can have that infusing grace BEFORE the grace of Salvation from sin?

So we must have life BEFORE Eucharist, right?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Yaqubos, (since you don’t like the short form of your name I use…)
By doing God’s infusing grace we mean to cooperate w/it . You believe the very same thing in that you believe that the grace of salvation is a free gift (as do we) and we have the freedom to accept or reject that gift. It is by cooperating w/that grace that we come to Christ and the by continuing to cooperate w/it that we live our Christian lives moment by moment.

One certainly CAN have life before the Euchaist, but Jesus commanded us to celebrate it just the way we doso in obediance to Him we do I can’t imagine why anyone would not wantto do this , both out of obediance to the Lord and for the intimate closeness of Him that it provides. To me , it is very clearly and simply stated inthe 6th Chapter of the Gospel of John. It was never said to be symbolic and I find it ludicrous for Paul to say that one can become guilty of the body and blood of the Lord if the body and blood were not really present there. If I make a symbol of you here on this sheet of paper in front of me and then stab it repeatedly w/ my knife, I may be guilty of many things, but I am certainly not guilty of your body and blood. You would have to be present here and I would have to stab you…so then presence is the key. the Bible is very clear in this passage…any other “interpretation” makes nonsense of it, whether one comprehends how it can be or not. The archangel Gabriel said it best “For nothing shall be impossible with God”

Personally I would like to hear what you believe concerning John 6 , particularly verses 30-70. I suspect that you do not believe these verses as written but will offer some spiritualized interpretation…still tell me what you think? :bible1: