Is the patriarchy a good thing?

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There were a lot of women stuck in bad marriages before divorce laws were liberalized in my part of the world. The idea that somehow women are more inherently selfish is another kind of slur. Why shouldn’t a woman, if they want, pursue personal goals?
 
niceatheist said:
Why shouldn’t a woman, if they want, pursue personal goals?
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Depends on the goals, the time involved and is she putting those goals before her family. Once you are married and have a family, that family should be her main goal.
 
MagdalenaRita said:
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niceatheist:
Why shouldn’t a woman, if they want, pursue personal goals?
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Depends on the goals, the time involved and is she putting those goals before her family. Once you are married and have a family, that family should be her main goal.
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I don’t disagree, but there seems to be a notion here that the man’s pursuits take precedence, not to mention the underlying notion that women who don’t want children at all are inherently defying their own nature.

I’ve known a few fathers in my time who proved selfish, putting their own happiness over that of their family. I had an aunt who was essentially forced to work even when her children were young because her husband was a lazy, shiftless alcoholic, and of course he had as little desire to at least pick up the slack and help with the children as he did in finding a gainful source of income. I admire my aunt, who did manage to hold the family together until the children were grown, and quite rightly she finally ditched her husband, who apart from all his other flaws, was a generally unpleasant individual.
 
Courtship before marriage was driven out, to be replaced by sex. Fortunately, both men and women are starting to understand that that approach is worse.
 
MagdalenaRita said:
It may have been phrased earlier but the feminist movement of the 70’s popularized it in music and tv and convinced women of the lie. They were very popular songs
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The so-called “feminist movement” - which is not a monolith, by the way - ironically popularized a lot of sexist ideals. “Have it all” was one of them.

Sex-on-demand was another. Trying to reconcile second-wave feminism with the Sexual Revolution didn’t come without its pitfalls; it was hardly “liberating” when women who set sexual boundaries were stigmatized as “frigid.”

Abortion-on-demand was another sexist ideal, upholding the status quo by telling us that we needed to kill our offspring in order to finish school, keep our jobs, and “make it” in a man’s world. Fortunately, there have been vocally pro-life feminists.

Other feminists of the second-wave, such as Andrea Dworkin, created a schism within the “feminist movement” by challenging pornography. Her opponents felt threatened because it was taboo to question the dogma of the Sexual Revolution, but she and other feminists raised important questions about pornography and its treatment of women that to this day remain unaddressed. I find porn as patriarchal as the barefoot-and-pregnant treatment of women.

I guess what I’m trying to convey is that it’s too simplistic to say that feminism is all-out wrong. It’s a diverse and complex ideology that has sometimes accomplished some real good and other times . . . not so much. 🙂
 
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Radical Feminism is all-out wrong. It was designed to sow the seeds of confusion and doubt, to the detriment of all women who decided to believe total strangers. There’s nothing complex about it. The issue of being against pornography was short-lived. They tried to glorify prostitution.
 
Radical anything is usually wrong. I could say the same about radical patriarchy. Many ideas are introduced into societies and most never catch on because it doesn’t really address what society is experiencing.

Ignoring the fringe of radical feminism, why did so many of the less radical ideas catch on? I think it’s because it resonated with society. If a large number of women weren’t unhappy as “just housewives” then it would have been ignored. While some people can become convinced of any ludicrous ideas, most people are pretty rational and not moved by every idea thrown their way.

Think about birth control. If most people didn’t have a desire to control the number of their children, the pill would still be lounging on a shelf. It caught on because society wanted this, irregardless of Church morality and teachings. Is society so quick to change with a new idea or did society change first then ideas were introduced to accomplish them?
 
The Pill and especially abortion, were heavily marketed. I saw a nice lady on TV in 1972 telling all viewers how bad back-alley abortions were. They lied and manipulated the media and the public. Here’s what happened:

 
MagdalenaRita said:
So, naturally and biologically there are differences in a man and a woman. A woman can demonstrate at times masculine qualities and a man at times can demonstrate feminine qualities. A man at times can appear “mothering” or a woman at times can appear “fathering” but a woman by nature is not a father and a man by nature is not a mother
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I don’t disagree with this, but notice how it’s still vague and doesn’t really address what I’m saying.

I.e. It’s spiritual motherhood if a woman is loving someone, fatherhood if a man is loving someone. Even if they’re doing exactly the same thing, or if they have the same level of a particular trait in question. So then it just reduces to adifference in biological sex.
 
Pattylt said:
If a large number of women weren’t unhappy as “just housewives” then it would have been ignored. While some people can become convinced of any ludicrous ideas, most people are pretty rational and not moved by every idea thrown their way.

Think about birth control. If most people didn’t have a desire to control the number of their children, the pill would still be lounging on a shelf. It caught on because society wanted this, irregardless of Church morality and teachings
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Exactly. Many anti feminists tend to look back wistfully and assumed women were happy and free back then. It wasn’t as if women were totally okay being under the authority of someone just because of their sex.

Feminists rightfully pointed out certain injustices. As to why it escalated, it is simple. Once you agree with certain points of a side, it’s easy to develop more and more extreme views over time.

E.g. A lonely man realizing that women were being superficial around him. Stumbles onto a certain forum and eventually becomes an incel with extreme misogynistic views.

We’re seeing this in society over everything. From abortion to Captain Marvel.
 
Are you referring to Captain Bland? She only has one facial expression.
 
MagdalenaRita said:
Depends on the goals, the time involved and is she putting those goals before her family. Once you are married and have a family, that family should be her main goal.
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Both spouses should have their families as their main goal. problem is that they are both held by different standards regarding this.

The man is expected to provide for his family financially. If he gives money, comes back late and plays with the kid for an hour, he’s a good dad. The downside is to this is that there are men who are utterly miserable with their jobs but feel like they have to support their family in this way. The upside is that there are men who can happily pursue his ambitions/passions and that counts as being a good dad.

The woman is expected to be physically there for her children. To cook, clean and nurture the kids. If she works, comes back late and play with the kids for an hour, she gets told that she isn’t caring for her children. The downside to this is that there are women who don’t feel fulfilled being just a SAHM, or would like to pursue other interests outside of the family but feel like they need to give it up to be a good parent. The upside to this is that there are women who love not working and being homemakers instead.

Working moms and dads who earn less than their wives are often told that they don’t have their families as their main goal, even if they are actually doing what’s best for their own families.

That’s the missing point whenever feminism and careers are brought up. That families should do what’s best for their situation instead of following a template
 
I am a creative who works in the media. I watch it daily. I’m not calling the actress names, only the way she was guided to portray a superhero. It was dumb and pointless. I care to know nothing about her politics or listen to her comments. People I will never meet can have their own lives.
 
blackforest said:
And yet there’s nothing wrong with developing strengths - teaching men to be more nurturing, for example. My husband is a fabulous daddy who has this figured out more than men of previous generations.
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Of course there is nothing wrong with that, I was just speaking of instinctual strengths and how it’s not all about men having strengths that women don’t have like someone else implied.
 
In life I have learned that men in power are more.forgiving than women. Just experience and just saying.
In a democracy it rules whoever it is elected, the people rule. If people elect mostly men then one may guess it is a patriarchy (forbid those men are easily led by women then it’s a hidden matriarchy). If people elect women than it is a matriarchy (forbid those women are easily controlled by men and then it’s a hidden patriarchy).
In which one are we now, as a planet? More patriarchy or matriarchy? Hidden or revealed?
 
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niceatheist said:
I don’t disagree, but there seems to be a notion here that the man’s pursuits take precedence, not to mention the underlying notion that women who don’t want children at all are inherently defying their own nature.
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A husband shoulders the responsibility as head of the family, so there is that precedence. Plus, IMHO most husbands and father are not “pursuing” careers the same as women. Women pursue a career to find self satisfaction. Yes, many times it is because of finances but, and you can tell by the posts here, that it is about self fullfillment for women. Men pursue a job, I don’t even think they call it a career, to provide for his family.

When a man and a woman marry in the Catholic church they take a vow that they will be open to life, so if a woman does not want children she should not marry because otherwise, yes, she is going against her nature. God gave woman the ability to carry life into the world, so contraceptives or any other way of blocking that ability is going against her nature.
Lea101 said:
I.e. It’s spiritual motherhood if a woman is loving someone, fatherhood if a man is loving someone. Even if they’re doing exactly the same thing, or if they have the same level of a particular trait in question. So then it just reduces to adifference in biological sex.
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In a way yes, it is biology. So a father can repeat to his kids the exact same words, try to act the exact same way his wife does towards his kids but that does not make him the mother. It is the same with the mother, she can repeat the exact same things to her kids as the father but it won’t make her the father.

Men and women are wired differently. Biological differences in men and women are not just physical attribute but we are different in the way we parent. Father’s play, talk, discipline differently than a mother.

It would be the same in spiritual motherhood vs spiritual fatherhood. If I had a problem and went to my husband I would get a totally different response than if I went to a girl friend. Women can work to quiet their emotions, do their best to stop behaving as a woman and work hard to get men to act more like women - “share your emotions”, “be more nurturing” but these are things we are doing because society is asking us to deny our feminity and masculinity not because that is how we are made.
 
Mary888 said:
In life I have learned that men in power are more.forgiving than women. Just experience and just saying.
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I don’t know what country you are in but in my own cultural background, the patriarchy rules and not in a good way.

There is huge gender imbalance in Asia because women are seen as inferior to men and are not deserving of life. I am no feminist because of the way most mainstream feminist think of abortion, an objective evil, as healthcare for women. Meanwhile in Asia, the primary victims of abortion are female babies.

So, is the patriarchy bad? It depends

Since I am Catholic, the patriarchy in accordance with God’s will is good. Divorced from God, it can go bad.

As for matriarchy, I don’t think there ever was a society that was a matriarchy.
 
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Lea101 said:
The woman is expected to be physically there for her children. To cook, clean and nurture the kids. If she works, comes back late and play with the kids for an hour, she gets told that she isn’t caring for her children. The downside to this is that there are women who don’t feel fulfilled being just a SAHM, or would like to pursue other interests outside of the family but feel like they need to give it up to be a good parent. The upside to this is that there are women who love not working and being homemakers instead.
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There are times and situations when both a husband and wife have to work. That is very common in todays society. Much of that is due to feminism and women entering the workforce but children need their parents and they need them in different ways.
Life is not always about being “fulfilled”. It is about responsibility also. If a woman is out “pursuing” other things rather than her family, then one would have to ask, is she being a responsibile parent. Are her pursuits selfish pursuits? Can these pursuits wait until her children are grown? Will these pursuits bring harm to her marriage and family? Love is about giving and self sacrifice. When you get married and begin having children, you are no longer your own person. You become one with someone else and take on responsibilities when you have children.

Women should have interests of their own and should be able to pursue them but not at the expense of their family.

We spend way too much time trying to compare and point the finger at husbands and fathers and worrying about whether or not everything is just perfectly equal. It is not going to be equal. Women and men are not identical. We have different roles in life.
 
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