Is there a real chance of communion between the Catholic Church and the orthodox?

[Vico]

…

So we understand both Catholic and Authority somewhat differently, yes?

geo

I think it is the same. See the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

872 “In virtue of their rebirth in Christ there exists among all the Christian faithful a true equality with regard to dignity and the activity whereby all cooperate in the building up of the Body of Christ in accord with each one’s own condition and function.” 386

873 The very differences which the Lord has willed to put between the members of his body serve its unity and mission. For “in the Church there is diversity of ministry but unity of mission. To the apostles and their successors Christ has entrusted the office of teaching, sanctifying and governing in his name and by his power. But the laity are made to share in the priestly, prophetical, and kingly office of Christ; they have therefore, in the Church and in the world, their own assignment in the mission of the whole People of God.” 387 Finally, “from both groups [hierarchy and laity] there exist Christian faithful who are consecrated to God in their own special manner and serve the salvific mission of the Church through the profession of the evangelical counsels.” 388

 

[ziapueblo]

While you view Bishop John Elya as Latinized, I view current Melkite hierarchy (including His Beatitude, the Patriarch) as being somewhat ambiguous to what terms they use mean…

That’s fair

“as in first millennium” or “Orthodox faith” could be interpreted both ways-

I believe what is meant is Orthodox as in Eastern Orthodox.

so… youre repudiating heresy?

No. Just choosing a Church which I can fully live an Eastern Christian life. Changing upper management is all I’m doing. I have no qualms or problems with the Latin Church.

ZP

 

[George720]

We don’t necessarily view it as being “self-headed” but having it’s own law.
The Church is headed by Christ in it’s entirety,
and by the College of Bishops, in unity with Peter’s successor,
govern the Church in His sake - as best as they can, hopefully.
It is that the Church is closely united to every single member inside it,
and that every Sui Iuris Church is united in governing the entire global Church of Christ.
They may have their own rules and laws, but they make up the governing body of the Church of Christ.

This is a disturbing paragraph for this elderly American Orthodox Christian…

The Global Church of Christ??? I mean, do you really have the Body of our blessed Lord now becoming a Globalist Organization run by its own members advising the Chair of Peter and its College of Bishops???

This is why we reject leaving problems such as severed communion unsolved for decades, but are okay with having couple bad pastors who can’t really overrule the Holy Spirit anyway.

Lord have Mercy! Do you really believe severed Communion over-rules the Holy Spirit? That men have that power??

Rome does not repent, precisely because … they do not see need to repent…

I know…

A phrase “Church of Rome, with which all must agree” was spoken by some of Church Fathers… as well as Peter speaking through Pope Leo at Chalcedon- while you can say it is because Peter’s faith was stated as true faith, why was it attributed only to Leo? I may be wrong but was anyone other than Pope ever in situation where others stated “Peter has spoken through him”?

This is how the Fathers in the Councils speak - IF you think that the Latin Church has omni-juris authority over the Global Body of Christ in the first thousand years of our undivided Communion in the Faith, then please show us the record of the petitions and the Latin rulings resolving them, and the body of law derived therefrom, over the EOC…

Orthodoxy does not recognize “valid Episcopate” and “valid Eucharist” in Catholic Church officially.

My Spiritual Father is a ROCOR Hegumen who enthusiastically recognizes and commemorates the Ecclesiastical Hierarchy each Liturgy… Maybe Orbis meant something else…

geo

 

[George720]

The Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church are not sister churches. The Latin Catholic Church and the Romanian Orthodox Church are sister churches.

Then you deny that the Church is the Communion of Communions???

Lord have Mercy!

You will be annointed with Chrism as a sign of coming to unity with Church of Christ (per Orthodox understanding)- you were not recognized to be that prior to coming to unity with Orthodox Church. Catholics do not chrismate converts from Orthodoxy in my understanding- but I might be wrong about this. This simply shows how each Church regards other one.

We simply have them renounce the heresy(-ies) of their former Communion and Chrismate them into the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church… We do not make any claims regarding your relationship with God in your Communion, as being within or without the Body of the Son… You are inferring something that we carefully avoid doing… eg Our regard for your Communion…
geo

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

We simply have them renounce the heresy(-ies) of their former Communion and Chrismate them into the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church… We do not make any claims regarding your relationship with God in your Communion, as being within or without the Body of the Son… You are inferring something that we carefully avoid doing… eg Our regard for your Communion…

Still, you do understand that this implies there was a heresy in the Eastern Catholic Church ZP was part of? Something that contradicts ZP’s branch theory.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

The Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church are not sister churches. The Latin Catholic Church and the Romanian Orthodox Church are sister churches.

Then you deny that the Church is the Communion of Communions???

Lord have Mercy!
…

All of the local particular churches are sister churches is what the concept is. Various communions of local particular churches do not form sister churches! Be sure to understand the context of the post.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

The Global Church of Christ ??? I mean, do you really have the Body of our blessed Lord now becoming a Globalist Organization run by its own members advising the Chair of Peter and its College of Bishops???

I meant to contrast Church of Christ as a whole to particular Churches making it up. Nothing else it is global because our Lord sent Apostles into the whole world to preach the Faith.

please show us the record of the petitions and the Latin rulings resolving them, and the body of law derived therefrom, over the EOC…

Not necessarily Latin, as much as Roman. Roman Church resolved conflicts, it was recognized as so. Council in Trullo , canon 2. Similarly, the Photian Council of 861 accepted the canons of Sardica as recognising the bishop of Rome as having a right of cassation in cases already judged in Constantinople.

This means Rome could overrule even case judged by Constantinople, second of Patriarchs. I also provide this link to Orthodox Wiki that states Primacy of Honor with no authority is an innovation, and while it does not exactly follow Catholic viewpoint (of course… I mean it is Orthodox wiki), you can easily see that primacy of Rome was not exercised as simply being one of pure lip service.

My Spiritual Father is a ROCOR Hegumen who enthusiastically recognizes and commemorates the Ecclesiastical Hierarchy each Liturgy… Maybe Orbis meant something else…

I don’t necessarily understand what you’re referring to … could you clarify this for my poor brain? Quoted part is about validity of sacraments, but your comment seems to be about commemorating metropolitans and hierarchy of Bishops in Orthodox Divine Liturgy.

Then you deny that the Church is the Communion of Communions???

I don’t think Vico denies it. He states what exactly is means by Sister Church is not relationship between communions, but between Sui Iuris / Autocephalous Churches in each communion.

 

[George720]

Still, you do understand that this implies there was a heresy in the Eastern Catholic Church ZP was part of? Something that contradicts ZP’s branch theory.

We leave those issues to God and speak only for ourselves - We only address what we see as heretical issues needing resolution for entry…

All of the local particular churches are sister churches is what the concept is.

The local Church is the Patriarchate, comprised of the many Churches in its Communion…

Various communions of local particular churches do not form sister churches !

OK - Try it this way: Are Antioch and Constantinople and Jerusalem three local Sister Churches? And is their Communion with one another a part of the Communion that is Christ’s Body?

Because in the EOC Ekklesiology, the EOC is the Communion of all the Local Churches with which She is in Communion…

Council in Trullo , canon 2.

I looked and saw it not… But IF matters were as you say, where the See of Peter is the Ruling Judge of all the Churches, then we should be able to find a record of all these rulings, and not just the merely advisory opinions, as you call them, of the once every century Ecumenical Councils, yes? Where are all these rulings from the Chair of Peter to which all of Christendom submitted for the first thousand years of the Faith of Christ?

I don’t think Vico denies it. He states what exactly is meant by Sister Church is not relationship between communions, but between Sui Iuris / Autocephalous Churches in each communion.

Are sister Churches in Communion or not in Communion with each other? Or does it not matter? An autocephalous Church is one that is free to extend to or withdraw Communion from any other Church… I do not Believe there are any autocephalous Churches within the Latin Communion, except for the rulership of that Communion… Likewise for Antioch and Jerusalem etc etc…

geo

 

[Margaret_Ann]

If I’m not mistaken, your second quotation is from Dominus Iesus.

 

[dochawk]

The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom of the Melkites (English translation, Eparchy of Newton, 2009) has this:

but that’s a hard-core latinization, and a serious deviation from Eastern practice.

Priest’s commemorate their bishop, full stop. The bishop commemorated the metropolitan, the metropolitan the patriarch, and the patriarchs one another.

The Vatican promulgated liturgy currently used by the Ruthenians and Pittsburgh is not representative of Eastern praxis.

Sure, it is in the text, but it is Eastern Tradition to only pray for your Archbishop during the litany.

no, just the bishop. When the bishop celebrates, he commemorates the metropolitan.

including a Romanian Greek Catholic monastery here in the US.

I hold that monastery in high regard, and they have a deep devotion to tradition (which has a lot to do with jumping jurisdictions), but they can hardly be considered “normative” . . .

They have valid sacraments and illicit but valid jurisdiction.

I don’t think that that “illicit” is consistent with current RCC canon law and catechism . . . (“all that is needed for Communion . . .” )

How can something be illicit , forbidden by law, but valid , the quality of being logically or factually sound?

while I don’t agree that they’re illicit, they could be illicit but valid in the same way as so many vagante, the Old Catholic Church until recently, the PNC, the handful of “dutch-touched” Anglican bishops, and so forth.

 

[EndTimes]

And there’s been this - with the ROC - Russian Orthodox (Apostolic) Church

APOSTOLIC JOURNEY OF HIS HOLINESS POPE FRANCIS
TO MEXICO WITH A STOPOVER IN HAVANA FOR A MEETING WITH H.H. KIRILL,
PATRIARCH OF MOSCOW AND ALL RUSSIA
(12-18 FEBRUARY 2016)

MEETING OF HIS HOLINESS POPE FRANCIS
WITH HIS HOLINESS KIRILL, PATRIARCH OF MOSCOW AND ALL RUSSIA

SIGNING OF THE JOINT DECLARATION

“José Martí” International Airport - Havana, Cuba
Friday, 12 February 2016

[Multimedia]

• Joint Declaration
• Address of Patriarch Kirill
• Address of His Holiness Pope Francis

Joint Declaration
of Pope Francis
and Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russia

 

[Margaret_Ann]

All the Byzantine and Ukrainian Greek Catholic Churches I’ve been to always mention the Holy Father in the Divine Liturgy.

This is the UGCC version of the petition that @Vico mentioned:

Priest: Among the first, remember, O Lord, our most holy universal Pontiff, [Name], Pope of Rome; our most blessed Patriarch (Major Archbishop), [Name]; our most reverend Metropolitan, [Name]; our God-loving Bishop, [ Name]. For the sake of Your holy churches grant that they may live in peace, safety, honor and health for many years, and rightly impart the word of Your truth.

Source: Divine Liturgy: Anthology for Worship. Galadza, Rev. P., editor, Roll, Joseph, associate editor; Thompson, J. Michael, associate editor. 2004, Metropolitan Andrei Sheptytsky Institute of Christian Studies, pp. 153, 241, 297.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Just choosing a Church which I can fully live an Eastern Christian life. Changing upper management is all I’m doing.

Q: Why don’t you think you can live an Eastern Christian life in the Byzantine Catholic Church?

And to be quite frank, it’s not just [c]hanging upper management. It’s giving up the Catholic Faith, the pearl of great price.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Margaret_Ann]

His Beatitude Sviatoslav Shevchuk gave an interview re that agreement:

https://www.royaldoors.net/2016/02/two-parallel-worlds-interview-beatitude-sviatoslav/

And this commentary is helpful too:

https://www.royaldoors.net/2016/02/called-to-unity/

 

[Vico]

…

OK - Try it this way: Are Antioch and Constantinople and Jerusalem three local Sister Churches? And is their Communion with one another a part of the Communion that is Christ’s Body?

Because in the EOC Ekklesiology, the EOC is the Communion of all the Local Churches with which She is in Communion…

geo

In general, an person becomes a member of the universal church and a sui iuris church through faith and Baptism. The dioceses are organized hierarchically such as Patriarchal or Metropolitan, etc., each diocese with a bishop, a successor of the Apostles. The document makes it clear that it is not a federation of particular churches. So, I may be incorrect at using the words autocephalous, or autonomous, or any other hierarchical term, other than that of eparchy, for the particular church.

From http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...cfaith_doc_28051992_communionis-notio_en.html

For this reason, “the universal Church cannot be conceived as the sum of the particular Churches, or as a federation of particular Churches”(41) . It is not the result of the communion of the Churches, but, in its essential mystery, it is a reality ontologically and temporally prior to every individual particular Church.

Indeed, according to the Fathers, ontologically , the Church-mystery, the Church that is one and unique, precedes creation(42), and gives birth to the particular Churches as her daughters. She expresses herself in them; she is the mother and not the product of the particular Churches.
…
10. Every member of the faithful, through faith and Baptism, is inserted into the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. He or she does not belong to the universal Church in a mediate way, through belonging to a particular Church, but in an immediate way, even though entry into and life within the universal Church are necessarily brought about in a particular Church. From the point of view of the Church understood as communion, this means therefore that the universal communion of the faithful and the communion of the Churches are not consequences of one another, but constitute the same reality seen from different viewpoints.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

We only address what we see as heretical issues needing resolution for entry…

From what I have seen, with Latin Catholics it is about renouncing Purgatory, Original Sin, Papal dogmas, Filioque and such. I wonder what will Eastern Catholic have to renounce.

The local Church is the Patriarchate

Not exactly. Every Bishopric (diocese or eparchy) is local Church.

in the EOC Ekklesiology, the EOC is the Communion of all the Local Churches with which She is in Communion…

So if two Churches break communion, EOC is null and void, or completely unaffected? If Church A is anathemized by anyone except Church B, but Church B is not anathemized by anyone… is Church A still part of EOC ?

An autocephalous Church is one that is free to extend to or withdraw Communion from any other Church… I do not Believe there are any autocephalous Churches within the Latin Communion

By this definition there aren’t. That is why I preferred Sui Iuris. Anyway, communion is a thing that defines Church as a whole. It directly affects two marks of the Church. It should not be based on a whim of local Bishop… it should be taken into context universally in unity with entire ruling body of the Church, not just one Patriarchate. This is why Catholic Church is a single communion and it’s Sui Iuris Churches do not toy with communion as they see fit.

I don’t think that that “illicit” is consistent with current RCC canon law and catechism . . . (“ all that is needed for Communion . . .” )

Could be true… I was under impression that after communion comes their jurisdiction becomes licit. Same way it would be with Old Catholics before they lost valid orders. There is a reason SSPX does not have jurisdiction.

From the point of view of the Church understood as communion, this means therefore that the universal communion of the faithful and the communion of the Churches are not consequences of one another, but constitute the same reality seen from different viewpoints.

This is incompatible with Eastern Orthodox Ecclesiology. Funnily enough, Oriental Orthodox Ecclesiology does not contradict this. Thanks to this, I am pretty sure it is not just Eastern thing.

 

[dvdjs]

Sure, it is in the text, but it is Eastern Tradition to only pray for your Archbishop during the litany. It must be proper for them to omit the Pope of Rome, since it is done in a couple of parishes I know of, including a Romanian Greek Catholic monastery here in the US.

I am surprised that anyone would attach the least bit of significance to this matter.

ACROD commemorates the Ecumenical Partirach (and its bishop) in the liturgy at exactly the same places that the Holy Father is commemorated in the BCC. This custom used in ACROD may have antedated the Union of Uzhhorod. If restricting, in some fashion or another, the commemorations is seen an example of how some "act ‘Orthodox’ ", then this “act” seem to be a strange affectation to me.

There are many things that each parish and each Church can do to enliven its spiritual life and more fully engage its patrimony. But they will not do this if they don’t really know themselves, lack the courage to be themselves, and look elsewhere for models, especially such trivial ones - about how to “act”.

 

[babochka]

It may be because of where I am living, but Orthodox teaching from sources I have read, written in my own language, is very much aimed against Catholic teachings. It is as if their identity is based on being resistant to Catholicism. Don’t get me wrong, I do not see Orthodoxy here as simply antagonistic or anything like that (both Churches work closely against abortion in my country, and unlike Protestant representatives, whenever Orthodox and Catholic officials speak at those events they draw from high theology but make it understandable to simple men and women, which I love). Orthodox Church here is working with Catholic Church against issues that we agree are evil… but they do not view us as one Church, and I don’t think they view our sacraments as licit, if even valid.

This is something that my Slovak pastor found striking when he came to America. He did not understand how much affinity we Eastern Catholics have for the Orthodox. He was and is wary about using Orthodox sources to understand Eastern theology. I would say that he still doesn’t understand it. Having grown up under communism, with Greek Catholicism being illegal, he comes from a particular set of cultural circumstances that we have not experienced in this country.

I am glad to hear that Orthodox and Catholics work together without animosity now on cultural issues. I think that that shows great Improvement in the relationships between the two churches and is a far cry from the days in which the Orthodox would destroy our temples rather than simply hand them back to the Greek Catholics.

and I don’t think they view our sacraments as licit, if even valid.

Does that represent a change in view on the part of the Orthodox? Under communism, when massive numbers of Greek Catholics were coerced into Orthodoxy, were they rebaptized and rechrismated and, in the case of priests, reordained? It is my understanding that many Greek Catholics simply went to the same church and worshipped God in the same way that they always had, under a new name.

They have valid sacraments and illicit but valid jurisdiction

What is illicit jurisdiction? This doesn’t make any sense to me .

Illicit indicates that there is a violation of law. To have jurisdiction is to have competency, under the law, to make decisions and judgments. How is it possible to have illicit jurisdiction? What law is being violated? From what law does the jurisdiction originate?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

It is my understanding that many Greek Catholics simply went to the same church and worshipped God in the same way that they always had, under a new name.

I guess so, but I also heard of many Greek Catholic Priests just straight up converting to Latin Catholic instead of becoming Orthodox. They favored being Catholic more than Eastern… and nowadays many people find out that their families of lay people would do the same, and they are canonically Greek Catholics even if for couple generations their families were acting as Latin Catholics. There are many people who “revert” back to their Eastern tradition and become Greek Catholics because of this.

I am glad to hear that Orthodox and Catholics work together without animosity now on cultural issues. I think that that shows great Improvement in the relationships between the two churches and is a far cry from the days in which the Orthodox would destroy our temples rather than simply hand them back to the Greek Catholics.

I am glad too. I also thought that from out of all Slovak Churches- Evangelical and Reformed Churches included, Orthodox primate had (in my view) second best speech on abortion and cultural issues… Catholic Archbishop had letter from the Pope, and Greek Catholic Archbishop who works in Rome had a great speech too… but he is known for being very inspirative. Anyway, I was surprised and glad that Orthodox stand with us against abortion.

Illicit indicates that there is a violation of law. To have jurisdiction is to have competency, under the law, to make decisions and judgments. How is it possible to have illicit jurisdiction? What law is being violated? From what law does the jurisdiction originate?

I am not sure myself, I will delve deep into it. Confession and marriage require jurisdiction to be valid and Orthodoxy has it, but setting up jurisdiction rival to Catholic Church is an act of schism… so schismatic jurisdiction then? I will try to find more about this…

 

[babochka]

I guess so, but I also heard of many Greek Catholic Priests just straight up converting to Latin Catholic instead of becoming Orthodox. They favored being Catholic more than Eastern… and nowadays many people find out that their families of lay people would do the same, and they are canonically Greek Catholics even if for couple generations their families were acting as Latin Catholics. There are many people who “revert” back to their Eastern tradition and become Greek Catholics because of this.

This is definitely true, and we greatly admire the steadfast faithfulness of the persecuted Church. This was the case with by pastor’s family. They attended the Latin church during communism, but as soon as they were able reclaimed their Greek Catholic Church. Many also made the other choice, worship as Orthodox but maintaining the knowledge and totally that they were Greek Catholic and passing it along to their children. They maintained the faith in a different way.

but setting up jurisdiction rival to Catholic Church is an act of schism… so schismatic jurisdiction then? I will try to find more about this…

Maintaining a structure that has been in place for centuries is not an act of schism. The schism happened a long time ago and those alive today are not personally responsible for the sin of schism.