Is there salvation outside of the Church?

[Ultima_Ratio]

catholic= universal
Catholic= Roman Catholic Church

While I say the Apostles creed in a Lutheran Church on Sunday it includes “…one holy catholic and apostolic church” it does not mean the Roman Catholic Church

I like what St. Augustine said about this. He said* “though all wish to be called Catholic; if you ask them where the Catholic Church meets, none will point to his own house or chapel”.*

The simple answer to why there is no salvation outside of the ROMAN Catholic Church is because the Roman Catholic Church (which includes all the particular Churches in union with it) teaches what Jesus taught. Those who refuse to enter into it usually have a doctrinal reason. The doctrinal reason they have for not entering the Roman Catholic Church, happens to be the same reason they will be lost. Why? Because by rejecting a dogma of the Catholic Church, they are thereby rejecting a teaching of Jesus, since what the Catholic Church teaches is what Jesus taught. Therefore, although they claim to believe in Jesus, the reality is that they reject Him - which is proven by their rejection of what He taught. That makes them a heretic; and, as the Bible teaches, “A man that is a heretic… sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment” (Titus 3:10-11).

That is the simple answer to why there is no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church.

Now, it may be that non-Catholics are simple ignorant of what the Roman Catholic Church is; namely, the very Church established by Jesus Christ while He was on earth. Before I was a Catholic, I didn’t know it; and I’m sure there are many others in a similar situtation.

Believe it or not, it is actually not too difficult to learn that the Catholic Church is what it claims to be. If anyone will look into it with a sincere will and open mind, you should be able to see very quickly that it is what it claims to be. I was able to figure it out very quickly by studying Church history, but I began my search with no bias whatsover. My only desire was to find the truth.

I even had a saying to keep me honest. The saying was this: *“It is better to be right than to be wrong; but it is better to find out your have been wrong than to find out you have been right”. *Why? Because if you find out you have been right you gain nothing, whereas if you find out you have been wrong you gain the truth.

 

[Roy5]

No offense intended, but I have spent considerable time reading theology of all varieties. I wrote my undergraduate thesis on “Certain Elements of Democracy in the Political Thought of St. Thomas Aquinas”, pored over the Church Fathers, spent time at a Trappist Monastery in Quebec, attended mass many times, etc. etc. Since one set of grandparents were converts from Catholicism I was quite curious early on as to why they changed. I susbscribe to Our Sunday Visitor and read a number of other Catholic periodicals regularly. And we could go on and on.

However, in my search for spiritual truth and assurance I have ended up more-or-less where I arrived during my college days: as a 'big tent' Protestant. This means I try my best to respect other faiths and the people who adhere to them, but I treasure the freedom that my sort of Protestantism permits: freedom to think independently, read widely, entertain this or that thought, weigh this or that idea, without feeling that I must conform to whatever a particular church or pastor or theology requires. I enjoy discussiing amicably with Catholics and Eastern Orthodox and all sorts of Protestants, as well as Buddhists, Hindus, Jains, Muslims, Sikhs, Bahais and many others. The search of humankind for God over the centuries continues to intrigue me.  I certainly don't pretend to have a monopoly on truth. In fact, I'm inclined to think that we all are too limited as mortals to understand the deeper mysteries of heaven and earth. That's why the scriptures tell us to walk by faith and not by knowledge. A merciful, omniscient God is in charge, and that's basic to everything else, all the doctrines that have led to battles, burnings, and continual babbling. 

 I'm sure that we are saved by grace through faith - period. My trust is not in churches or Popes or specific Bible verses or preachers, but in the one God and Savior of us all. We may worship the Lord in a variety of ways, but it's our heart and soul and not our doctrines that he is interested in.

 God bless the whole world - no exceptions.

 

[distracted]

Grace and Peace,

This whole thread is a straw man. Most know the teaching of the Catholic Church regarding this idea… Why are we rehashing this?

because this is not true, what you say…

how is this a straw man??

 

[distracted]

Yep. Jesus said it too. No one come to the Father except through me. We know from scripture that Jesus Christ is the CHurch, he and the CHurch are one. And there is no salvation outside of Jesus CHrist. So it ties in together. There is no salvation outside of the CC. So yes that is what I mean.

but the Church says that if a person is Catholic on the “inner forum”… he can get to Heaven…

 

[distracted]

catholic= universal
Catholic= Roman Catholic Church

While I say the Apostles creed in a Lutheran Church on Sunday it includes “…one holy catholic and apostolic church” it does not mean the Roman Catholic Church

why ar you Lutheran when you could be Catholic?

 

[distracted]

I like what St. Augustine said about this. He said* “though all wish to be called Catholic; if you ask them where the Catholic Church meets, none will point to his own house or chapel”.*

The simple answer to why there is no salvation outside of the ROMAN Catholic Church is because the Roman Catholic Church (which includes all the particular Churches in union with it) teaches what Jesus taught. Those who refuse to enter into it usually have a doctrinal reason. The doctrinal reason they have for not entering the Roman Catholic Church, happens to be the same reason they will be lost. Why? Because by rejecting a dogma of the Catholic Church, they are thereby rejecting a teaching of Jesus, since what the Catholic Church teaches is what Jesus taught. Therefore, although they claim to believe in Jesus, the reality is that they reject Him - which is proven by their rejection of what He taught. That makes them a heretic; and, as the Bible teaches, “A man that is a heretic… sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment” (Titus 3:10-11).

That is the simple answer to why there is no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church.

Now, it may be that non-Catholics are simple ignorant of what the Roman Catholic Church is; namely, the very Church established by Jesus Christ while He was on earth. Before I was a Catholic, I didn’t know it; and I’m sure there are many others in a similar situtation.

Believe it or not, it is actually not too difficult to learn that the Catholic Church is what it claims to be. If anyone will look into it with a sincere will and open mind, you should be able to see very quickly that it is what it claims to be. I was able to figure it out very quickly by studying Church history, but I began my search with no bias whatsover. My only desire was to find the truth.

*I even had a saying to keep me honest. The saying was this: *“It is better to be right than to be wrong; but it is better to find out your have been wrong than to find out you have been right”. **Why? Because if you find out you have been right you gain nothing, whereas if you find out you have been wrong you gain the truth.

 

[distracted]

.

i disagree that the reason peole don’t join the Church or leave is a doctrine… i think a lot of people suspect the RCC is the right Church but they don’t join because they don’t want to disrupt their lives… or change anything … fear of pain of some kind…

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

No offense intended, but I have spent considerable time reading theology of all varieties. I wrote my undergraduate thesis on “Certain Elements of Democracy in the Political Thought of St. Thomas Aquinas”, pored over the Church Fathers, spent time at a Trappist Monastery in Quebec, attended mass many times, etc. etc. Since one set of grandparents were converts from Catholicism I was quite curious early on as to why they changed. I susbscribe to Our Sunday Visitor and read a number of other Catholic periodicals regularly. And we could go on and on.

However, in my search for spiritual truth and assurance I have ended up more-or-less where I arrived during my college days: as a 'big tent' Protestant. This means I try my best to respect other faiths and the people who adhere to them, but I treasure the freedom that my sort of Protestantism permits: freedom to think independently, read widely, entertain this or that thought, weigh this or that idea, without feeling that I must conform to whatever a particular church or pastor or theology requires. I enjoy discussiing amicably with Catholics and Eastern Orthodox and all sorts of Protestants, as well as Buddhists, Hindus, Jains, Muslims, Sikhs, Bahais and many others. The search of humankind for God over the centuries continues to intrigue me.  I certainly don't pretend to have a monopoly on truth. In fact, I'm inclined to think that we all are too limited as mortals to understand the deeper mysteries of heaven and earth. That's why the scriptures tell us to walk by faith and not by knowledge. A merciful, omniscient God is in charge, and that's basic to everything else, all the doctrines that have led to battles, burnings, and continual babbling. 

 I'm sure that we are saved by grace through faith - period.[SIGN] My trust is not in churches or Popes or specific [/SIGN]Bible verses or preachers, but in the one God and Savior of us all. We may worship the Lord in a variety of ways, but it's our heart and soul and not our doctrines that he is interested in.

 God bless the whole world - no exceptions.

Boy I am glad Jesus didn’t think this way or I would be like you a big tent. prot. But left me the Apostles to teach me the truth. My Trust is in the Church the RCC. The Church that is led by the Holy Spirit. So while I can claim no theology degree, I can also say I do not need it. I have what Jesus left me the CHurch. The Pilar of truth to lead me.

 

[rinnie]

but the Church says that if a person is Catholic on the “inner forum”… he can get to Heaven…

Does not matter distracted. As long as it is through Jesus CHrist. You cannot get to heaven any other way. Jesus Christ is the CC. So if you agree as the scripture tells us that CHrist is united to his CHurch and the 2 become one you will agree. No salvation outside of the CC.

 

[Lynxdk]

.

i disagree that the reason peole don’t join the Church or leave is a doctrine… i think a lot of people suspect the RCC is the right Church but they don’t join because they don’t want to disrupt their lives… or change anything … fear of pain of some kind…

I left the RCC because of doctrine.

 

[rinnie]

I left the RCC because of doctrine.

I agree with you. Most people do leave because the RCC will never change. So they move on to a Church that can tell them more or less what they want to hear. The Church will never change its teachings.

 

[Lynxdk]

I agree with you. Most people do leave because the RCC will never change. So they move on to a Church that can tell them more or less what they want to hear.

Nice little zing =) You’re wrong though.

The Church will never change its teachings.

I know, and I’m only interested in the Truth… but this isn’t really the thread or the forum area for that… Not sure exactly how I ended up in the Traditional area… >.>

So I’ll leave you to it.

God Bless =)

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

No offense intended, but I have spent considerable time reading theology of all varieties. I wrote my undergraduate thesis on “Certain Elements of Democracy in the Political Thought of St. Thomas Aquinas”, pored over the Church Fathers, spent time at a Trappist Monastery in Quebec, attended mass many times, etc. etc. Since one set of grandparents were converts from Catholicism I was quite curious early on as to why they changed. I susbscribe to Our Sunday Visitor and read a number of other Catholic periodicals regularly. And we could go on and on.

However, in my search for spiritual truth and assurance I have ended up more-or-less where I arrived during my college days: as a ‘big tent’ Protestant. This means I try my best to respect other faiths and the people who adhere to them, but I treasure the freedom that my sort of Protestantism permits: freedom to think independently, read widely, entertain this or that thought, weigh this or that idea, without feeling that I must conform to whatever a particular church or pastor or theology requires. I enjoy discussiing amicably with Catholics and Eastern Orthodox and all sorts of Protestants, as well as Buddhists, Hindus, Jains, Muslims, Sikhs, Bahais and many others. The search of humankind for God over the centuries continues to intrigue me. I certainly don’t pretend to have a monopoly on truth. In fact, I’m inclined to think that we all are too limited as mortals to understand the deeper mysteries of heaven and earth. That’s why the scriptures tell us to walk by faith and not by knowledge. A merciful, omniscient God is in charge, and that’s basic to everything else, all the doctrines that have led to battles, burnings, and continual babbling.

 I'm sure that we are saved by grace through faith - period. My trust is not in churches or Popes or specific Bible verses or preachers, but in the one God and Savior of us all. We may worship the Lord in a variety of ways, but it's our heart and soul and not our doctrines that he is interested in.

 God bless the whole world - no exceptions.

I’d love to be able to sit down with you over a cup of coffee and have a long discussion.

BTW, do you pray very often for an increase in faith? Faith is a special virtue that helps us to believe the truths that God has revealed. I attribute much of my conversion to that. A few years before converting, I heard from some Catholic source that we should pray daily for “the grace of greater faith”. When I heard that, I wasn’t a Catholic, and didn’t even know what faith was. I thought I did, but I actually had an incomplete understanding of it. But when I heard the person say we should pray for an increase of faith, for some reason I started saying that prayer all the time.

You know how it sometimes happens that something will strike you as common sense? When you hear it you think to yourself: That makes perfect sense - it’s obvious.

Well, that is the reaction I had when I was attending my Catechism classes. I remember saying to the Priest many times “that makes perfect sense”. Everything I was hearing and reading resonated with me in such a way that it seemed to be common sense. That’ actually the words I used to describe it. I would say it is all common sense.

And I now know why I had that reaction. During those years I was praying for an increase of faith, I was receiving it. Therefore, I had the faith, but I wasn’t yet aware of the doctrinal teachings that corresponded to that faith. When I finally heard them, my intellect, which had been formed by the increase in faith God was giving me 'lept for joy" and embraced them. The theological virtue of faith had given form to my intellect, and the doctrinal teachings were the expression of that form.

Faith is a rare gift today for many reason, one of which is probably because we don’t pray enough for it.

At the end of your above post, you said it is not doctrines that matter. I will end with one verse showing how important doctrine is:

2 John1:9-11: “Whosoever revolteth, and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that continueth in the doctrine, the same hath both the Father and the Son. If any man come to you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him, God speed you. For he that saith unto him, God speed you, communicateth with his wicked works”.

The theological virtue of faith helps us to recognize and *“continue in the doctrine of Christ” *because he who has it not “hath not God”. The right doctrine matters.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

i disagree that the reason peole don’t join the Church or leave is a doctrine… i think a lot of people suspect the RCC is the right Church but they don’t join because they don’t want to disrupt their lives… or change anything … fear of pain of some kind…

I think that is true with a lot of people. And what you said is the same thing my wife always says, so you must be right

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

I left the RCC because of doctrine.

That happens alot today. The reason is, most Catholics only have a surface understanding of what the Church teaches, and are completely unable to defend it. In addition, they are also usually ignorant of the Bible. Therefore, they are an easy target for a Protestant, or a Jehovah’s Witness, with a few select Bible verses. The Catholic has no idea how to respond. They are shaken, and if the Protestant presses them they’re likely to start questioning what they believe.

On the other hand, as *Distracted *correctly pointed alluded to, some people leave because their morality is not in line with that of the Church. Therefore, rather than correcting their moral issue, they make up a doctrinal reason for leaving. That is more respectable than saying they left over a moral issue.

Hopefully you left because you sincerely thought the Church was wrong on a doctrinal issue. If so, I’m sure that can be cleared up very easily here on these boards.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

Nice little zing =)
I know, and I’m only interested in the Truth… but this isn’t really the thread or the forum area for that…

God Bless =)

What are the doctrinal issues you have with the Catholic Church?

 

[Roy5]

Lynxdk, you quoted from I John. I prefer I John 4:20-21, two of my favorite verses. I wonder if the two passages don’t contradict one another???

Why do Catholics leave their church? I have purposefully asked a number of them and here are five of the most common responses.

**Marriage**. They marry Protestants who are more serious in their faith. The reverse is true, too, of course.

**Doctrine**. Many well-educated Catholics begin to have doubts about a Catholic doctrine or two, and once doubts set in they can take off. The result can be leaving the church either for conservative Protestant churches (usually they want more Bible) or mainline Protestant churches (they rebel against any and all religion that teaches a must-believe set of dogmas). Many leave organized religion entirely. Some drift into various cults, ranging from Buddhist and Hindu sects to Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses.

 **Personal matters**. There may be some conflict with a priest. I heard one man say that his wife confessed artificial birth control after four children and the priest scolded her, so the whole family left to go to the local Episcopal Church. Sometimes a man or woman is divorced, can't remarry in the church without the annulment process, remarries outside the church, often in a ceremony performed by a minister, and they end up in that minister's church. Occasionally someone has an abortion and won't go back into a Catholic church, feeling unwelcome and/or self-excommunicated.

 **Influence of family, friends or neighbors** Some Protestants are very evangelical in their approach to other people. They may boast of their church and its pastor, often extending an invitation to "attend church with us". Some Catholics do, and they may gradually become involved in that congregation. Some youth follow friends to Protestant youth groups, Vacation Bible School, church summer camp, etc.

  **TV evangelism**. People like Billy Graham, Joel Osteen, Pat Robertson, Robert Schuller and others reach millions through television and/or perhaps radio. They offer attractive worship, including music and preaching with a broad appeal. Some Catholics are drawn away from Catholicism by these evangelists. EWTN offers an alternative, but EWTN offers a hard-shell traditional Catholicism that many find archaic.

  As regards to the thread, most US Catholics no longer believe that there is no salvation outside the church, which once was a deterrent to leaving. It also was a sin to worship in a Protestant church, which changed with Vatican II. This Thanksgiving ecumenical services will be held across America - as happens every year. The old wall that once kept Catholicism and Protestantism separated has come down.

  A Pew study showed that for every one who enters the Catholic Church in the USA, four leave it. I was rather shocked today to read another recent Pew USA study which showed that while a substantial majority of Protestants oppose same-sex marriage, Catholics actually favor same-sex marriage by a small percentage. This suggests that the influence of the hierarchy over Catholic laity has shrunk enormously over the past few decades.

  But let's think less and less about Catholics and Protestants and more of Christians who seek to follow the one Lord and Master of us all.

  God bless the faithful of every creed, color and country. May religion become a bridge and not a barrier.

 

[TobiMex]

A quick comment to some part of sentence “the RCC teaches what Jesus taught”

Jesus taught that a man had to be born again. Any catholic, that does not read the Bible has never heard of that. If I talk for example with my roman catholic relatives about that, they do not have the slightest idea that this thing is even in the Bible or that Jesus ever said that. There is no understanding of spiritual things.

Apart from that, when did Jesus tell that the pope was going to be his representant on earth? Even Peter in his first card says openly that the cornerstone is not him, but Jesus Christ. And the real representant of the Lord, if you read Scripture, is the Holy Spirit as is mentioned plenty of times in the Gospels.

Then, where did Jesus teach salvation through purgatory? Jesus taught about two places, which is heaven and hell. Think about where you are going NOW, and not that whatever you will be doing you will go to heaven. The RCC doctrines are so inconsistent in themselves. What is a roman catholic actually saved through???

What the RCC teaches is THEIR OWN doctrine, not the one of Jesus. But the problem is that Catholics do not read their Bibles or, like Jehovas Witnesses do, read it but having glasses on with doctrine that comes from their priest.

So if you say the RCC teaches Christian doctrine, thats just wrong, as wrong as it could be. Thats also why so many Catholics run away from their faith, because when they really start reading the Word of God and understand it, they cannot go there anymore.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

A quick comment to some part of sentence “the RCC teaches what Jesus taught”

Jesus taught that a man had to be born again. Any catholic, that does not read the Bible has never heard of that. If I talk for example with my roman catholic relatives about that, they do not have the slightest idea that this thing is even in the Bible or that Jesus ever said that. There is no understanding of spiritual things.

The teaching of the Church is that a man must be born again to enter heaven. If your relatives don’t know that, it’s because they are not well informed on what the Church teaches.

Apart from that, when did Jesus tell that the pope was going to be his representant on earth?

Matthew 16: 18-20: "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

The keys of heaven belong to Jesus, as we read in the Apocalypse (Revelation). Here we see Jesus giving those keys to Peter, along with the power to open and shut heaven.

Then, where did Jesus teach salvation through purgatory? Jesus taught about two places, which is heaven and hell. Think about where you are going NOW, and not that whatever you will be doing you will go to heaven. The RCC doctrines are so inconsistent in themselves. What is a roman catholic actually saved through???

The inconsistency is in your mind, since you don’t know what the Church teaches. A person is not saved by going through purgatory. Either they are saved in this life, or they are not. However, if someone is saved, and is guilty of offending God after being saved, some of these offenses can be forgiven in the next life.

Matt: 12:32 "Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

This clearly implies that some sins are forgiven in the world to come. The place where they are forgiven “in the world to come” is called purgatory.

Purgatory is not where a person is saved; but where the soul is cleansed of any remaining attachments to sin. The Bible says “nothing undefiled will enter the Kingdom of heaven”. Salvation is obtained instantaneously when a person is in the state of grace, but sanctification is a process (their salvation can also be lost if the person falls away from God). If the process of sanctification has not been completed in this life, it will be in the next. This is what St. Paul means when he speaks of some being “saved, as it were, through fire”. They are saved through fire because their sanctification is complete through the fires of purgatory.

What the RCC teaches is THEIR OWN doctrine, not the one of Jesus. But the problem is that Catholics do not read their Bibles …

Yes, many Catholics don’t read their Bibles, which is why they can’t defend what they believe using the Bible. If they knew the Bible better, they could refute the heretics who *think *they know the Bible, but who in reality don’t. Just as the Jehovah’s Witnesses read the Bible all the time yet never “come to the knowledge of the truth” so too is it with the Protestants.

So if you say the RCC teaches Christian doctrine, thats just wrong, as wrong as it could be. Thats also why so many Catholics run away from their faith, because when they really start reading the Word of God and understand it, they cannot go there anymore.

If some Catholics run from their faith, it is because they never learned the Bible, and therefore don’t know that it teaches what they believe. Therefore, when a heretic approaches them with a few misunderstood Bible verses, the Catholics are easy prey for their errors.

But those Catholics who do know their faith and the Bible, know that it is the Protestants who are totally ignorance of the Bible. They may have memorized a few select verses, such as John 3:16, and Romans 10:9, but they are completely ignorant of much of the rest, and often fall into grave errors through their wrong interpretations - which is why there are now approximately 40,000 separate denominations. They all claim to believe the Bible, yet they are divided on what it teaches. Like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, they “are ever learning, but never arriving at the knowledge of the truth”.

 

[TobiMex]

The teaching of the Church is that a man must be born again to enter heaven. If your relatives don’t know that, it’s because they are not well informed on what the Church teaches.

Friend, I am living for 3 years now in Mexico City. Mexico as you know is about 95% roman catholic with a growing christian minority. We are talking to people every week. Not even once have I found a roman catholic that knew what I was talking about when I mentioned the need to be born again. So please dont tell me that that is what the RCC teaches. And if the RCC teaches that, why does nobody know about it??? The strang thing here is that my christian church teaches that and thats why I know about it. What sense does it make if it written down somewhere but people never get to know??? More DUE TO THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE TO KNOW BECAUSE IT IS GODS SALVATION PLAN!!!

About the quote from Matthew 16, that is actually the one and only that I have heard over and over from roman catholics, due to the fact that is the only way to, if you twist it a little though, to say that Peter was the rock on which the whole church is built. Read a bit before what Peter says and read his first letter, then you will find out that Jesus was never saying that Peter was going to be the rock. A lot less does that mean that each pope is representant of God on earth.

About purgatory and the quote from Matthew 12 you try to confirm it with.

This clearly implies that some sins are forgiven in the world to come. The place where they are forgiven “in the world to come” is called purgatory.

Sorry but that does not imply anything. The only thing it says here that the sin against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. Nowhere does it say that all the other sins will be forgiven in the world to come. How often does Jesus say that if you believe in him (as God, as Saviour, as the only one who can forgive sin and so on) your sins are forgiven? Either my friend your sins are forgiven or they are not. In Jesus we have salvation, we will not be saved from some sins in purgatory. I believe that is what your priest has told you and the sad truth is that all roman catholics believe it. Nowhere in the Word of God does it say that! Would not make sense anyway, you make Jesus the Lord of your life or you not, you are saved or you are not. It is as easy as that. And it is also BIBLICAL after alll.