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Bill_Pick
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What does the Bible have to say,please read John 3;5
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Xavierlives
Guest
Well, I am not a child and have not been one for quite a while, but I can now watch my own children and see their faith. I’d like to learn from them. They can see God’s love and wholeheartedly accept it. As we grow older the world creeps in and starts making us questioning the love. If I could have the faith one-tenth of my children, I would be blessed.Well, I must say that I am sure religions like it when their “flock” are child-like in following and accepting the rules as handed down!
I actually heard a woman on Catholic radio today say how wonderful it was to hear people say “Good Morning, Father!” as they strolled into Mass - she commented happily on how they sounded like sheep! That is truly frightening!
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ralphinal
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What did Jesus mean in John 3:5? Or Peter in Peter 3:21? Are they not pointing to baptism as being more than a symbol? How can a symbol save you through Jesus Christ?
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O.S.Luke
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Absolutely. Have you ever HAD children?
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ralphinal
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A better question is can children cause parents to go to hell?Absolutely. Have you ever HAD children?
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Agripa
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M’am, my sympathies to you - and just remember, notions of heaven and hell go a long way to making some people feel better or vidicated in this life, but in the end, nobody has any idea what happens after we die.
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Xavierlives
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I think the poster means figuratively speaking. The history of baptism shows it to be one of cleansing. I Peter 3:20 says:
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
What was actually cleansed in this baptism? I think the point is, Noah was saved and cleansed by staying dry.
Then I Peter 3:21-22 says
[21] The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: [22] Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Christ, though already pure, was buried into death to wash our sins and once being brought from death into life, being raised out of that watery grave, into life, was the cleansing. Through Christ’s resurrection we are made clean.
We probably should always try to be mindful of our literal and figurative discourse or someone might then want to discuss how John the Baptist spoke of a baptism by fire. I’m pretty sure I do not need to be immerse in fire to cleansed.
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ralphinal
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Oh. I took the poster to mean that there was no spiritual action involved in baptism, that it was a true sign of something that already happened and had no real effect on us.
Kind of like signing a registration card
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Xavierlives
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Maybe he will chime in. I don’t like to speak for others, but that is what I took from it.
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Agripa
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Well, if by “world creeps in”, you mean reason, education, knowledge and rational thought, than I am all for the questioning and the doubting. I have a feeling there would be a lot less strife in actual life if more folks let reality creep in once in a while!
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Xavierlives
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Hmm… I guess by worldly standards I am well educated. I would also say as a teacher of logic and debate, I have a little experience with reason and rational thought, but I don’t think they interfere with with my faith. I think the “creeping world” is more closely related to humanity and sin. I’ve seen my fair share of faith-shattering events and to be perfectly honest, children do not see those events. They just go on believing.Well, if by “world creeps in”, you mean reason, education, knowledge and rational thought, than I am all for the questioning and the doubting. I have a feeling there would be a lot less strife in actual life if more folks let reality creep in once in a while!
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LutheranDK
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“Yes”, is the short answer. The long answer is: “If they don’t die as believers, as Christians, it’s not just a chance. It’s a certainty.”
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Agripa
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Well, as you opened the door to your expertise, I will say that it often surprises me when I hear obviously well educated persons, particularly those in the areas of hard science, forensics, law and mathematics, profess a deep belief in a faith system. I am not at all saying such persons ought not have a faith belief, but it does surprise me.
Maybe you are better able to compartmentalize faith from reason. I cannot, particularly when the faith beliefs have been handed down from pre-Enlightenment times.
Don’t think for a moment I do not believe there is a God, even reason can lead to a realization that something begat existence, however, the puny efforts by man over man’s brief time in the universe to “divine” such a nature are mere guesses at best.
At worst, however, I fear man’s nature leads him to secure his own purposes by playing on other men’s fear of the unknown. It is not foolish to note men will concoct all sorts of myths to better placate other men to their purposes. Heaven and Hell: the mythical driver of all salesmen from the dawn of time!!
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ralphinal
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Does your branch of Lutheranism say that unbaptised children before the age of reason are damned?
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Agripa
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Do you actually think such a thing is so? Do you ever consider that a culture that beleives that innocent children would burn forever in a pit of hell is perhaps an ancient, superstitious, uneducated, unenlightened culture reflecting a war-like, brutish, barbaric worldview?
And if you hold this view today, what kinds of acts are you thus capable of when dealing with people in the real world?
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Zooey
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Sociopaths, you mean, I think…
THere are a very few cases I have heard of, where children have actually killed someone, and I wonder about that sort of thing myself…Very sad.
I can’t think that they are normal human beings, though…
The case I was thinking of particularly, in my reply (above) was of a boy of about 10 or 12 who kidnapped, assaulted, and murdered a very little boy (maybe 4 or 5). It was truly horrible. The young killer caused quite a sensation, because the state prosecuted him as an adult. Very unusual, but it was the only way to be sure that he was not out running around loose among other children.
But 10 or 12 year olds…He knew what he was doing was wrong &
did it anyway. What happens when such a person dies? I really don’t know the answer.I do know that God sees what is true about every person, not just what we see. I think we all need to pray for all involved in such
sad cases, and trust in Our Lord.
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LutheranDK
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I don’t recognize an “age of reason” (when is that, btw? When kids stop being cute? 10? 13? 16? Etc?). All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Children are tainted with sin just as much as adults are - the difference is the way in which this is expressed.
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LutheranDK
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I do.
You mean “Do you cater to political correctness and refrain from speaking the truth as you see it, should it be an unpopular one?”
The answer is “no.”
Would you please explain what that is supposed to mean?And if you hold this view today, what kinds of acts are you thus capable of when dealing with people in the real world?
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Agripa
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Well, since its clear you believe innocent babies will burn in hell (that is just an awful thing to beleive), I suppose there may not be much use in me explaining the last part of my question, but allow me to try.I do.
You mean “Do you cater to political correctness and refrain from speaking the truth as you see it, should it be an unpopular one?”
The answer is “no.”
Would you please explain what that is supposed to mean?
First, will these innocent but unbaptised babies who are in hell, will they be screaming and writhing in pain forever or do you allow your self a figurative hell for them to be in forever?
Next, what I mean by asking how do you deal with people based on your view that there is a place in hell for babies, is this: It seems a person reared to think other humans are going to hell for either not believing in a certain way or who do not partake in certain religious initiations might also think such people are beneath dignity or respect in real life, or who only gain worth once they are fully initiated into your particulalr religious club. How then do you think of people who you know are going to hell. What are you willing to do to children in this life who you know are going to hell in the next?
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Agripa
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and have you ever held a baby in your arms?? Maybe you should, maybe it would open your fanatic heart a little.I do.
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