Is this all the CC has?

[teancum79]

Hi teancum79,

Can you please start with 1 example of a piece of history that you have studied, quoting the source, and then outline how it clashes with the history that us Catholics quote?

I think then we will be better able to help solve your question on why you think our history clashes with “real” history?

Thanks

I did not get a transcript from my teachers lectures. But if you can prove to me that there was never a crusade called that raised money, but no one ever went to do whatever they where supposed to be doing that would be worth looking at

 

[dosdog]

I did not get a transcript from my teachers lectures. But if you can prove to me that there was never a crusade called that raised money, but no one ever went to do whatever they where supposed to be doing that would be worth looking at

The Real History of the Crusades
THOMAS F. MADDEN
Many historians had been trying for some time to set the record straight on the Crusades - misconceptions are all too common.
catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0055.html

 

[Prince_Hal]

I’m trying to understand the CC better. I’ve lost count of how many people tell me that they have facts, proof and evidance that they’ve been around for 2k years. I’m trying to understand if thats the core you guys really teach as being “why we are right”.

Ah Teancum. A troll question if ever I heard one. Haven’t read the rest of the posts. But yes to history and tradition. But for a current Mormon Bishop as I am, I will tell the most compelling proof I know of the Catholic Church being Christ’s:

the Eucharist is the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ as described in John 6
Mary isn’t just to wheeled out at Christmas, she is our Mother and has much more of a central role in our lives than just an incubator for Christ
The scriptures support Catholicism and roundly refute mormonism

So many reasons. But sorry to say I doubt your sincerity in knowing the truth. Take it from one who was / is a Bishop in the LDS church and has been through all the LDS ceremonies - mormonism has not a patch on Catholicism. Why ? Because the Catholic church is Christ’s church. But you need to open your mind and heart first.

God bless,

Hal.

 

[kellie]

I did not get a transcript from my teachers lectures. But if you can prove to me that there was never a crusade called that raised money, but no one ever went to do whatever they where supposed to be doing that would be worth looking at

So basically you don’t know history, it is just bits and pieces that you think you remember from your minor?

Here is a link on the history of the Crusades

newadvent.org/cathen/04543c.htm

Now we have that cleared up, what other “history” clashes with the “CC history”?

 

[elts1956]

So basically you don’t know history, it is just bits and pieces that you think you remember from your minor?

Here is a link on the history of the Crusades

newadvent.org/cathen/04543c.htm

Now we have that cleared up, what other “history” clashes with the “CC history”?

Although there were many Christians who took the Oath of delivering the Holy Land from the Muslims, one must admit much injustice.resulted. No matter how highly elevated and altruistic an intent, nothing is perfect. If we were to see the story with the eyes of the Muslim women and children especially, during that time, I am sure the picture would be quite different. The time of the Crusades was a barbaric period in history in which individual rights were not granted, or even heard of.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Although there were many Christians who took the Oath of delivering the Holy Land from the Muslims, one must admit much injustice.resulted. No matter how highly elevated and altruistic an intent, nothing is perfect. If we were to see the story with the eyes of the Muslim women and children especially, during that time, I am sure the picture would be quite different. The time of the Crusades was a barbaric period in history in which individual rights were not granted, or even heard of.

how about if we see history through the eyes of christian man, women and children being slaughtered by muslims, romans and many others? how about churches being destroyed?

*“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D… *

 

[teancum79]

So basically you don’t know history, it is just bits and pieces that you think you remember from your minor?

Here is a link on the history of the Crusades

newadvent.org/cathen/04543c.htm

Now we have that cleared up, what other “history” clashes with the “CC history”?

I have a rather good memory for verbal information a quick google search turned this up which would support my “think I remember”

books.google.com/books?id=87inL4Cd4wgC&pg=PA252&lpg=PA252&dq=crusades+fundraising&source=web&ots=l2vmmY2mxH&sig=fPdPqBtjvaXr769DPNgD7-0zM4A&hl=en#PPA253,M1

 

[dosdog]

I have a rather good memory for verbal information a quick google search turned this up which would support my “think I remember”

books.google.com/books?id=87inL4Cd4wgC&pg=PA252&lpg=PA252&dq=crusades+fundraising&source=web&ots=l2vmmY2mxH&sig=fPdPqBtjvaXr769DPNgD7-0zM4A&hl=en#PPA253,M1

also called Republic of Saint Peter or Church States , Italian Stati Pontifici or Stati della Chiesa territories of central Italy over which the pope had sovereignty from 756 to 1870. Included were the modern Italian regions of Lazio (Latium), Umbria, and Marche and part of Emilia-Romagna, though the extent of the territory, along with the degree of papal control, varied over the centuries.
britannica.com/eb/article-9058317/Papal-States

1702 - In Maryland, the Anglican Church is established as the official church, financially supported by taxation imposed on all free men, male servants and slaves.

1706 - South Carolina establishes the Anglican Church as its official church

1649 The Religious Toleration Law of 1649 establishing toleration for all religions in early Maryland

1692 Maryland’s famous Religious Toleration Act officially ended, and the Maryland Assembly established the so-called Church of England as the official State religion

 

[majick275]

I have a rather good memory for verbal information a quick google search turned this up which would support my “think I remember”

books.google.com/books?id=87inL4Cd4wgC&pg=PA252&lpg=PA252&dq=crusades+fundraising&source=web&ots=l2vmmY2mxH&sig=fPdPqBtjvaXr769DPNgD7-0zM4A&hl=en#PPA253,M1

what is it you think this shows? were some crusaders corrupt? yes were some catholic leaders corrupt? yes were the crusades abused by some for their own selfish purposes? yes

we know all about that. what has that to do with dogma?

 

[teancum79]

what is it you think this shows? were some crusaders corrupt? yes were some catholic leaders corrupt? yes were the crusades abused by some for their own selfish purposes? yes

we know all about that. what has that to do with dogma?

I was just providing some support for my memory of a history teacher saying that the crusades put money in the CC’s pocket.

 

[dosdog]

I was just providing some support for my memory of a history teacher saying that the crusades put money in the CC’s pocket.

History is amazing
KIRTLAND BANK

 

[valient_Lucy]

As to a date I don’t know I’ve thrown out the guess of 150 AD, but thats a guess. The Apostles died. The beliefs and practices of the CC and not the same as the Church that Paul et el. wrote to and taught.

Where is the evidence that the apostasy occurred at this date? Where are the documents showing the new doctrines being introduced, and where are the documents showing a struggle between the new ideas and the ideas of Christ and the apostles? Why were the early Christians dying for their faith and corrupting it simultaneously?

Just as important, where is the evidence that early Christians practiced and believed any of the things that Mormons believe today?

 

[majick275]

I was just providing some support for my memory of a history teacher saying that the crusades put money in the CC’s pocket.

aaah so you think the crusades were only created to enrich the church. i believe that you will find plenty of examples of individuals both in and out of the church who attempted to benefit form the crusades. some even did. for the most part though the cost outweighed the “treasure”. as far as the church is concerned though. where the church called for crusades the certainly seem justified in doing so and i believe history shows them to be have been necessary. so once again, yes individuals at every level have been bad catholics man times. the dogma has always been pure though and the church continues to preserve it and share it in it’s original form.

 

[teancum79]

aaah so you think the crusades were only created to enrich the church. i believe that you will find plenty of examples of individuals both in and out of the church who attempted to benefit form the crusades. some even did. for the most part though the cost outweighed the “treasure”. as far as the church is concerned though. where the church called for crusades the certainly seem justified in doing so and i believe history shows them to be have been necessary. so once again, yes individuals at every level have been bad catholics man times. the dogma has always been pure though and the church continues to preserve it and share it in it’s original form.

I never said only. Do you even read what I write or just enough to attack what I’m saying? You seem to jump to some very inaccurate conclusions.

 

[teancum79]

Where is the evidence that the apostasy occurred at this date? Where are the documents showing the new doctrines being introduced, and where are the documents showing a struggle between the new ideas and the ideas of Christ and the apostles? Why were the early Christians dying for their faith and corrupting it simultaneously?

Just as important, where is the evidence that early Christians practiced and believed any of the things that Mormons believe today?

It is a GUESS. I see many ideas being after that date that I do not see before that time. By about 150 AD the Apostles would have been gone and many if not all of the leaders they chose. (figuring around a 60ish year life span which I assume is not to short for the period).

As far as “documents” there are many writings from the era. Many have been quoted to me on this forum. The letters of Paul provided a great example of the misunderstandings that came up in the various groups of saints. I think it is childish to assume that such problems just went away. I find too many differences between biblical teachings and the practices of the CC to believe that that group of people got it right.

 

[valient_Lucy]

As far as “documents” there are many writings from the era. Many have been quoted to me on this forum. The letters of Paul provided a great example of the misunderstandings that came up in the various groups of saints. I think it is childish to assume that such problems just went away. I find too many differences between biblical teachings and the practices of the CC to believe that that group of people got it right.

No one is denying that misunderstandings did not happen. What we are asking for is evidence that one of these misunderstandings replaced the authentic teachings of the apostles and the Bible. For example, assuming that the Mormon understanding of the Trinity is the apostolic teaching, and the Catholic understanding of the Trinity is a corruption, when did the Catholic understanding of the Trinity replace the teaching of the apostles? Why did no one attempt to stop this corruption of Church doctrine?

 

[majick275]

I never said only. Do you even read what I write or just enough to attack what I’m saying? You seem to jump to some very inaccurate conclusions.

i really didn’t think i was attacking your position in this post. i attack a lot of your positions but i thought we were just discussing this one. soory

 

[ibkc]

It is a GUESS. I see many ideas being after that date that I do not see before that time.

Like what?

 

[teancum79]

i really didn’t think i was attacking your position in this post. i attack a lot of your positions but i thought we were just discussing this one. soory

I’m all up for a discussion, but I have had several people who put words into my mouth. I’m sorry if I am a bit defensive, but I have enough to do trying to stat my faiths positions on issues and having to correct what people misread gets old.

 

[RobHom]

teancum79…before I get to the crux of what I wish to say, I want you and others to know that I what I am going to say comes from both my mind and heart…I also want you to know that I have absolutely nothing but respect for Mormons. I have known many in my 58 years of life, and even went into battle in Vietnam with some. Fine people, and I truly respect you all. That being said, here is my response to you:

I hear very often evidence this and fact that. Is that really all the CC has going for it. That’s all I see being talked about here is a selected version of history.

I read the above last night, and have thought about most of the comments made by you and others through this thread.

Frankly, I found your initial post a bit “brash” or even “arrogantly challenging”. Now, considering that you say that you came here to learn and understand more about the Catholic Church…it seems a tad “disingenuous”. For instance…what kind of responses would I have gotten from Mormons…on a site like this one… lds.net/forums/ or this one… mormonforums.wordpress.com/ had I posted a “comment” such as yours…replacing the “CC” with “LDS”? Could it have possibly been harsher? I don’t honestly know… I am not inclined to find out either. Hopefully you are seeing my point, you seem quite intelligent, so I am guessing you are quick on the uptake.

At any rate…I am a Catholic, and will readily admit that I am not the best one on the planet, but I am still a Catholic, and will go to my grave as one.

Many things have been taught about the Roman Catholic Church, and over the years, many of them have been false…much of it about the Crusades. There is far more to the history of the Crusades than can be handled summarily. I will only say along with others…that as in any war or sets of wars, there have been and probably always will be “opportunists”…but one must be very cautious when accepting the word of “academics”…in schools. But here is a rather “concise” history of the Crusades, and the causes: middle-ages.org.uk/cause-of-crusades.htm and here is another one that is interesting… atheism.about.com/od/crusades/a/crusades_3.htm and if you note the fact that the foregoing url is not at all “religious”, the most interesting thing is that it very much parallels Catholic history. As does this one: truthandgrace.com/Crusade.htm Maybe you could spend some time reading all of the information on those sites… and then you will have a better understanding of the “Crusades”.

And if you have other questions about our “Faith and Beliefs”, this site can answer probably all of your questions: usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm

If you are truly desirous of knowledge and understanding about the Roman Catholic Church, its people, and their beliefs, you have come to the right place to learn. But if your purpose is otherwise, then…well, you know how it goes. I prefer to believe that you are truly inquisitive, now all that is required is for you to be accepting of the responses to you not as caustic but informational. There is no requirement that you believe it…that is entirely up to you. I accept whole-heartedly that your belief in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, as well as other tenets of your faith are sincere. You should grant others the same considerations.