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ProdglArchitect
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Agreed, it’s a hard thought to bear. But, we also have to remember that every soul that is in Hell is there by their own choice. God doesn’t send people to Hell against their will…
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yankeesouth
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Once saved, always saved is very attractive and is probably the main reason dissenting Catholics leave for protestantism. ‘That mean ol’ church…MY Jesus wouldn’t do that.’
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twf
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That’s the modern formulation as found in the Catechism. It makes sense to me. Yet some of these visions seem to imply otherwise. Its also difficult to reconcile with Florence and the pronouncement that those who die in mortal sin (own choice) OR “original sin alone” (not own choice) are damned (though it goes on to say with different degrees of punishment).
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ProdglArchitect
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Well, Jesus did say that Baptism is necessary for salvation…
That said, those are the normal means available to us, not limits on God’s sovereignty. We also hold that those who are invincibly ignorant will not be lost, regardless of baptismal status, so we can hold out hope for them.
That said, those are the normal means available to us, not limits on God’s sovereignty. We also hold that those who are invincibly ignorant will not be lost, regardless of baptismal status, so we can hold out hope for them.
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OmnesBonum
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I am very surprised and pleased to see this. This is exactly what I have mentioned on several other of my posts, where I showed that the teaching of universal salvation/well-being is the actual traditional teaching of the Christian church. There is nothing at all that I see heretical in his holy message here, but much that is in the replies.
First of all, I don’t see any mention by him of saying that people were starting to repent after they died, and certainly cannot be compared with denying the theotokos, as one of the comments implied, or that it means that nothing matters at all since everyone will be saved. All this very holy and inspired priest seems to me to be saying, is just showing how God as Love is compatible with and will persuade everyone’s free will (which of course is first and continuously always inspired by his grace) to accept him, the way, the truth, the love, the happiness, the existence of all.
He did not in any way deny free will but clearly said that God will freely affect it, causing it to turn to good/god, just as something we enjoy doing causes us to turn to it, and God is what everyone by nature would enjoy the most. Here are some quotes from holy scriptures and traditions proving this (also see my other posts):
First of all, I don’t see any mention by him of saying that people were starting to repent after they died, and certainly cannot be compared with denying the theotokos, as one of the comments implied, or that it means that nothing matters at all since everyone will be saved. All this very holy and inspired priest seems to me to be saying, is just showing how God as Love is compatible with and will persuade everyone’s free will (which of course is first and continuously always inspired by his grace) to accept him, the way, the truth, the love, the happiness, the existence of all.
He did not in any way deny free will but clearly said that God will freely affect it, causing it to turn to good/god, just as something we enjoy doing causes us to turn to it, and God is what everyone by nature would enjoy the most. Here are some quotes from holy scriptures and traditions proving this (also see my other posts):
Also, it is the clear teaching of the church that unbaptized children at least of Catholics go immediately to heaven, as indicated in the rite provided in the Roman Ritual.
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OmnesBonum
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Please give the specific quote from the council saying this.
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ProdglArchitect
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This is wrong. This could not be further from the Truth. The Church has never taught universal salvation. We have writings from the earliest church leaders that clearly speak of the realities and dangers of Hell.
Jesus clearly speaks of the dangers of Hell. He said, clearly that the path to Heaven was difficult and that many would be lost. The saints have, in no uncertain terms, told us that Hell is very populated. What you are saying, that God will, esentially, coerce the free will of all people into accepting Him flies in teh face of scripture. It’s certainly a wonderful, comforting thought, but when Jesus spoke of Hell, the last thing he wanted was for us to be comforted.
You are wrong, and you need to stop spreading this falsehood. It is only serving to endanger souls.
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TheOldColonel
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No where in the priest’s article does he dispute Catholic doctrine or Catholic Tradition. Yet, many are quick to condemn him for merely sharing his thoughts. Sounds a bit medieval to me. It seems, that even in modern times, some have a psychological needs to imagine millions of souls burning and tormented in the bowels of Hell even though the Church has never said anyone is in Hell.
This now beleaguered man merely speculated about God’s will and power to save everyone. For that, he is maligned as a heretic. But, in his defense, it must be noted that he contradicted no church teaching for he taught nothing.
He did, however, raise an interesting point. Could it be the case that the all-good, all-knowing and all- powerful God, in the end, gets His way? How successful will God be in saving the world? I suppose we will each know in the end.
This now beleaguered man merely speculated about God’s will and power to save everyone. For that, he is maligned as a heretic. But, in his defense, it must be noted that he contradicted no church teaching for he taught nothing.
He did, however, raise an interesting point. Could it be the case that the all-good, all-knowing and all- powerful God, in the end, gets His way? How successful will God be in saving the world? I suppose we will each know in the end.
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phil19034
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This statement is 100% heresy.
In my opinion- ideas like this prop up in order for otherwise religious/ devout people to justify or become comfortable with sexual sin.
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TheOldColonel
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One must ask. Why is it fine for you to speculate that not everyone will be saved, but the priest is condemned for his speculation that they might? The teachings of the Church support neither of you definitively. Yet, you seem absolutely sure you are right. Unless you’ve visited Hell, how could you possibly know if anyone is there?
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TheOldColonel
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“Noactionreaction”… What action do you think should be taken? Just curious.
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ProdglArchitect
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Incorrect.
The Church has never said any specific person is in Hell, but it has always reaffirmed that Hell is a real possibility, and the there are likely people in it. Universalism has been condemned as heresy, and the position being espoused is universalism.
Also, we do not have a need to envision people in Hell. It is quite frightening to consider, and I honestly hate thinking about it for too long. BUT every last Saint who has been given a vision of Hell have all agreed on one point: There are people in Hell, a lot of them.
I’m not going to pretend otherwise just to make myself feel better about my chances or their loss. Hell is real. I can really go there. It is forever, so I’d really rather not.
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ZMystiCat
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I don’t know. A god who forces you to share in his divine life for all eternity against your will seems like a rape-y god to me, not a loving or great one.
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TheLittleLady
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Ralph Martin wrote a good book on this, here is an article about that book:
https://www.osv.com/Article/TabId/493/ArtMID/13569/ArticleID/15683/Will-Many-Be-Saved.aspx
https://www.osv.com/Article/TabId/493/ArtMID/13569/ArticleID/15683/Will-Many-Be-Saved.aspx
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ProdglArchitect
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This is the problem with these sorts of discussions.noactionreaction:
I don’t know. A god who forces you to share in his divine life for all eternity against your will seems like a rape-y god to me, not a loving or great one.
Generally, the people who think Hell doesn’t exist or that no one is in it say that God wouldn’t allow people to go the Hell becasue that would be evil.
They see Hell as the greater evil.
The people who think Hell does exist and is populated say that God allows people to go there rather than violate their free will.
They see the loss of free will as the greater evil.
We cannot agree on which is the greater evil (even though the Church and its philosophers have had a clear stance on this for centuries), and so we cannot agree on anything.
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Wandile
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They were condemned at a previous synod in Constantinople but ratified by the 5th council before its official proceedings which were to deal with the Three Chapters. That’s why it’s official acts which only exist in Latin now don’t contain the condemnation.
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OmnesBonum
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The whole thing that’s never understood in these arguments is that it is not denying the hypothetical possibility of someone choosing to not be united with God, nor promoting the heresy of denying free will (although always influenced by grace), but simply saying that no one would ever freely choose to be separated from God, who is all good and happiness. In fact they could not, not because of some outward restraint, but because they will not by nature choose this.
A good comparison is how God cannot sin. He is not being restrained by any higher powers, but simply his will will never want this, and so it is impossible for him. Does anyone really believe someone would choose to be tortured forever?
A good comparison is how God cannot sin. He is not being restrained by any higher powers, but simply his will will never want this, and so it is impossible for him. Does anyone really believe someone would choose to be tortured forever?
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OmnesBonum
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I still don’t see any quote from any council saying this. If it was not in official acts, how can it be said to be declared by an ecumenical council?
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ProdglArchitect
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Yes, sadly, I do believe that. In part because of the private revelation of the saints, and in part because I just know a lot of people in my life who have stated, repeatedly, that even if God does exist they would not submit to Him, even if it meant Hell.
The sad reality is that we can set our wills against God, and that choice, that setting of the will, gets locked in once we die.
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chessnerd321
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Underestimating God’s mercy seems much more likely than overestimating it.
That said I don’t think nobody is in hell. I wouldn’t say any particular person is in hell, but I would say people in general probably are.
That said I don’t think nobody is in hell. I wouldn’t say any particular person is in hell, but I would say people in general probably are.
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