Is This What Protestantism Is Really About??

[Lujack]

Luther said “Be a sinner”

Luther said “Doing good is more dangerous than sinning”

Luther said “There is no free will”

Luther said “The individual Christian is subject to no authority”

Luther said “Peasants deserve their harsh treatment”

Luther said “Polygamy is permissable”

Luther said “The bible could use some improvement”

Luther said “persecute the Jewish people”

As I said before, is this what Protestanism is really about?

Could you cite those quotes? I have never read anything like that.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

This is disgusting. You make Jack Chick look like a rank amateur. I am done with you.

To my friends here at CAF, I apologize for this post.

Jon

**1.) "Let your sins be strong, from “The Wittenberg Project”, the Wartburg Segment, translated by Erika Flores, from Dr. Martin Luther’s Saemmtliche Schriften, letter no. 99 (1 August 1521)

2.) Wittenburg, VI 160 in “The Facts About Luther”, Tan Books, 1987 p.122

3.) From the essay, “Bondage of The Will”, Martin Luther:selections from his writings, Anchor Books 1962, p. 190

4.) From the essay “Freedom of A Christian”, Martin Luther: selections from His Writings, Anchor Books 1962, p. 63

5.) “The Facts About Luther”, Tan Books, 1987 p. 235

6.) De Vette 11, 459, ibid, p. 329-330

7.) “The Facts About Luther”, Tan Books, 1987 p. 202

8.) “Luther’s Works”, Pelikan, vol. XX, p. 2230

I guess you don’t even realize what your own Reformer actually taught.
Protestant ministers concentrate more on the perceived errors of Catholicism, than they do examining the writings of their own Founders.
If you doubt these passages, I urge you to go to the sources. **

 

[adstrinity]

If you doubt these passages, I urge you to go to the sources.

I doubt the Personal Saviour quote in the first post of this thread. Where is that one?

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

I doubt the Personal Saviour quote in the first post of this thread. Where is that one?

Is this all you have?..good grief…

 

[adstrinity]

Is this all you have?..good grief…

That’s the only question I have from what you posted, yes.

 

[Lujack]

I guess you don’t even realize what your own Reformer actually taught.
Protestant ministers concentrate more on the perceived errors of Catholicism, than they do examining the writings of their own Founders.
If you doubt these passages, I urge you to go to the sources.

This, I think, is where you are making a mistake. Martin Luther is no more a founder of, say, Methodism, than George Washington is a founder of the French Revolution.

Luther’s actions, and not his doctrines, inspired other Protestants. I’m not really equipped to debate Luther’s doctrines, but I feel like you are misrepresenting them as well. That, I’ll leave for others.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

This, I think, is where you are making a mistake. Martin Luther is no more a founder of, say, Methodism, than George Washington is a founder of the French Revolution.

Luther’s actions, and not his doctrines, inspired other Protestants. I’m not really equipped to debate Luther’s doctrines, but I feel like you are misrepresenting them as well. That, I’ll leave for others.

Martin Luther was the cause of the division of the Catholic church which became from him the Protestant church. He divorced himself from the true church in which he himself was a Catholic monk.
He was the first. Perhaps you should read his biography to understand the Reformation. And Methodism was founded by John Wesley and his younger brother Charles during the 18th century.
All man made denominations except for the Catholic church, unless you call Jesus the man.

 

[cascherman]

The first quote is from a book called *The Facts about Luther *by Patrick O’hare. It is not a quote from Luther, it is his view of Luther’s teaching.

From that point forward you have forfeited your scholarship.

I’m Catholic but sorry, I at least attempt to not slander.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

The first quote is from a book called *The Facts about Luther *by Patrick O’hare. It is not a quote from Luther, it is his view of Luther’s teaching.

From that point forward you have forfeited your scholarship.

I’m Catholic but sorry, I at least attempt to not slander.

Oh please…These are facts about Luther, that’s why the book is titled “Facts About Luther”…:doh2:
You are Catholic, perhaps you should purchase Luther’s Volume of books and see for yourself.
I am done now, I need some sleep. :yawn:
You can try to discredit me all you like but it is what it is.

 

[gcnuss]

I’m away from my office now, so I don’t have all my resources at hand, but with Luther context means a lot. Taking a short phrase or sentence can be deceiving.

Luther said “Be a sinner”

I do have the context of this, Luther’s letter to Melanchton. Here is the section of the letter from which the quote comes:

If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

This is a far cry from a simple “be a sinner” meant to encourage his friend to commit sins with intent to do so.

 

[cascherman]

Oh please…These are facts about Luther, that’s why the book is titled “Facts About Luther”…:doh2:
You are Catholic, perhaps you should purchase Luther’s Volume of books and see for yourself.
I am done now, I need some sleep. :yawn:
You can try to discredit me all you like but it is what it is.

I have no reason to discredit you, I have simply said you presented something as if Luther said it but he did not. This damages your credibility.

Oh please…These are facts about Luther, that’s why the book is titled “Facts About Luther”…:doh2:
You are Catholic

Yes I am, but don’t make it sound like me being Catholic obliges me to accept any book or what it says simply because it is a ‘book’.

Also, I do not argue that he never said things that are kinda squirrely.

 

[RobHom]

There were many things that were said by many people, many years ago.

Can we not strive to move forward and try to find a common ground for amicability?

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

I’m away from my office now, so I don’t have all my resources at hand, but with Luther context means a lot. Taking a short phrase or sentence can be deceiving.

I do have the context of this, Luther’s letter to Melanchton. Here is the section of the letter from which the quote comes:

This is a far cry from a simple “be a sinner” meant to encourage his friend to commit sins with intent to do so.

"Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides…no sin can seperate us from him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times a day"

Luther is actually saying that our actions- even the most sinful actions imaginable-don’t matter! He is saying we can commit any sin we want-willfully, presumptuously, purposefully-and we will not offend God! After all, we require nothing more that “faith” to be saved. What we do is incidental, of course anyone familiar with Scripture will point out this is NOT a Christian teaching. For throughout the bible we are told sin seperates us from God. (Isaiah 59 1:2). No believer has a license to sin.
Christians who willfully sin will be judged at the judgement seat of Christ (Romans 12:14, 1st Thess 4:6)

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

I have no reason to discredit you, I have simply said you presented something as if Luther said it but he did not. This damages your credibility.

Yes I am, but don’t make it sound like me being Catholic obliges me to accept any book or what it says simply because it is a ‘book’.

Also, I do not argue that he never said things that are kinda squirrely.

Everything I have said, I attest to in the name of God that I have not lied. People need to read what the real Luther taught.

Goodnight.

 

[gcnuss]

There were many things that were said by many people, many years ago.

Can we not strive to move forward and try to find a common ground for amicability?

And I answer, as loudly as possible, “AMEN!” Thank you, Rob.
We aren’t going to go anywhere if we remain tied up in fighting again the battles that took place five centuries ago.

To be sure, we have theological and ecclesiastical differences that need to be addressed and, with God’s help, overcome, but hurling epithets at one another is eerily like what happened back in the sixteenth century. Verbal brickbats cannot be the weapon of choice if one seeks reconciliation.

 

[cascherman]

Everything I have said, I attest to in the name of God that I have not lied. People need to read what the real Luther taught.

Goodnight.

Sheesh… I can tell you are convinced you did not lie. No matter how ill advised it is to show your conviction in that way.

I am telling you that Luther may have believed that but you presented it as a quote of Luther’s and it wasn’t.

 

[O.S.Luke]

Give up, folks. It is his way or the highway.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

And I answer, as loudly as possible, “AMEN!” Thank you, Rob.
We aren’t going to go anywhere if we remain tied up in fighting again the battles that took place five centuries ago.

To be sure, we have theological and ecclesiastical differences that need to be addressed and, with God’s help, overcome, but hurling epithets at one another is eerily like what happened back in the sixteenth century. Verbal brickbats cannot be the weapon of choice if one seeks reconciliation.

It must be very hard to comprehend the teachings of your Protestant religion by the one who started it all. Martin Luther.

Martin Luther: The man who is celebrated for calling into question authority of the Catholic church. The very same church Jesus Christ founded.
How much Luther has the average Protestant read? Or even the average Protestant clergyman? Little, if any.
Luther was a troubled, surly, intemperate–and occasionally even blasphemous man. Hardly the picture of a Spirit-led leader of the faith.
Sounds outrageous to you? Inconceivable? I’m not surprised. In fact, I myself was surprised to discover Luther’s true nature. But once you read his own words, his nature is undeniable.
Why the scarcity of Luther’s writings in mainstream Protestant bookstores? I cannot speak from first hand knowledge. But if you read the passages I gave you, you may suspect-as I do-that Luther has been silenced because his true Theology is an embarrassment to his followers. They would much rather propogate the image of the benevolent bombast, the passionate leader, the enlightened patriarch-because if people really know what Luther thought and taught, they would be appalled.
Since his work extends to more than 50 volumes, I just gave an overview here.
For the strength of a chain is determined by its weakest links.

Now an objection by those **who have not read Luther **will be “These passages are taken out of context, and they cannot be trusted as accurate representations of Luther’s thought”.
However, I gave citations for each excerpt. Go to the source and see for yourself. you’ll find that not one of these passages means anything apart from what appears here; so I challenge anyone here to try to imagine any context that could possibly change the meaning of these words.
I’ve allowed Luther to speak for himself.

 

[Lujack]

It must be very hard to comprehend the teachings of your Protestant religion by the one who started it all. Martin Luther.

But Luther is no more the founder of Protestantism than George Washington is the founder of Bolivia. It was his action, not his doctrine, that inspired the other denominations to break away. You seem to be projecting the importance of apostolic succession that we have in the Catholic Church on to Protestant denominations that do not believe that way.

Also, you seem to be ignoring the Anglicans, who broke with the Church before Luther, and have their own “branch” denominations. An Anglican would not care about Martin Luther.

 

[adstrinity]

But Luther is no more the founder of Protestantism than George Washington is the founder of Bolivia. It was his action, not his doctrine, that inspired the other denominations to break away. You seem to be projecting the importance of apostolic succession that we have in the Catholic Church on to Protestant denominations that do not believe that way.

Also, you seem to be ignoring the Anglicans, who broke with the Church before Luther, and have their own “branch” denominations. An Anglican would not care about Martin Luther.

I thought the Anglicans did it in 1534. Luther…okay, Luther STARTED something in 1517…I don’t know when he officially broke away…