Is Tridentine Mass Episcopal or Roman Catholic?

[obadiah]

Amen, I started a thread on the 318 Church Fathers once and was surprised at how far astray it meandered.:bigyikes: :whacky: :bounce: :extrahappy: :crying:

I don’t think it’s active at this time, I haven’t rec’ved a notification lately, but I don’t THINK it’s been closed…YET.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

“Episkopos” means “supervisor.” the Apostles established a three tier hierarchy of supervisors (episcopos or bishops), elders (presbyters or priests) and assistants (deacons.)

Yer, my bad. I meant to say it means overseer.

 

[dessert]

Problematic to me is that this interpretation gives a “Free reign trial period” to way too much. How many folks get lost along the way as people are told “well let’s see where this goes”?

Very sadly, in the Catholic Church we have already given 4 decades to watch this: http://www.nyu.edu/library/bobst/research/arch/images/village_07big.jpg

.

Simple sinner please calm down, everyone calm down,
I think I have a good explanation for this pic.

It looks to me like it is maybe from the 70’s and she is probably in high school. Back then the skirt length was knee height.
She is carrying books that look like nursing and she is all in white.
She may be a novice also and they did not have to wear a full dress as she more than likely has a ways to go before becoming a nun.
The headscarf more than likely meant she was at a chapel. Just got over heading to class or work in a hospital.
When I was approaching high school my mom was going to put me in a scholl like that and I didn’t go.
In those days they prepared kids for the vocation way ahead of anything else.There were many private Catholic High Schools and they cost, but they were even in the small cities. They were like a military school and very strict.
The pix is definately not a full nun.
Simple Sinner you must have a bone to pick but don’t assume that you know everything about the way these people were trained.
That next pic which she looks very angry is a pic of a very bitter woman and has nothing to do with the way she was trained in being a nun.
She is carrying her own torch looks anti everything.
So please calm down OK?
Dessert

 

[obadiah]

Problematic to me is that this interpretation gives a “Free reign trial period” to way too much. How many folks get lost along the way as people are told “well let’s see where this goes”?

Very sadly, in the Catholic Church we have already given 4 decades to watch this: http://www.nyu.edu/library/bobst/research/arch/images/village_07big.jpg

Additionally, 4 decades in the life of the Church is a blink of an eye.

Go with prayers in your heart, and when you move forward for a blessing first pray for me and then ask “Lord, what on earth is that sinner talking about?”

See where it goes from there.

Yes please Pray for me also. When I was Pentecostal, we used to talk about " Clothesline Preachers." Lord have Mercy.:banghead: :hypno: :byzsoc: :nun1: :knight1:

 

[obadiah]

Simple sinner please calm down, everyone calm down,
I think I have a good explanation for this pic.

It looks to me like it is maybe from the 70’s and she is probably in high school. Back then the skirt length was knee height.
She is carrying books that look like nursing and she is all in white.
She may be a novice also and they did not have to wear a full dress as she more than likely has a ways to go before becoming a nun.
The headscarf more than likely meant she was at a chapel. Just got over heading to class or work in a hospital.
When I was approaching high school my mom was going to put me in a scholl like that and I didn’t go.
In those days they prepared kids for the vocation way ahead of anything else.There were many private Catholic High Schools and they cost, but they were even in the small cities. They were like a military school and very strict.
The pix is definately not a full nun. …
Dessert

Thank you dessert, that information is highly classified our nuns go through much the same thing, only in full habits.:byzsoc: :nun1: The angelic life…:heaven: :tissues:

 

[obadiah]

Yer, my bad. I meant to say it means overseer.

Episkopos could also mean SHEPHERD

 

[dessert]

Yes please Pray for me also. When I was Pentecostal, we used to talk about " Clothesline Preachers." Lord have Mercy.:banghead: :hypno: :byzsoc: :nun1: :knight1:

IMHO pentecostals are prostelizing, don’t think I spelled this correct. Much like a subculture does.

 

[obadiah]

That certainly added to her celebrity among the dissident community. She still writes a weekly article for the *National Catholic Reporter *and appears regularly in the national media as a “Catholic Expert.” Sadly, the easiest way to become a media darling or “Catholic Expert” seems to be to jab at your own church.
http://www.benetvision.org/src/picbv/joannew2005.jpg

Very recently, when traveling to New Zealand to agitate for her sad causes, the local ordinary sent out a letter to the priests of his diocese. She did not ask permission to come, she was not invited, her rhetoric was not welcome. She was not to be granted any use of Church facilities, and the priests were NOT to promote her visit. (See: New Zealand Bishop Speaks Out Against Visit of Pro-Abortion Nun - lifesite.net/ldn/2007/jul/07070302.html)

IMO, if she had any integrity, whatsoever, she would simply sever her ties to the Catholic Church and go be ordained by the Episcopalians. It only seems fair - all the good priests (and a couple of bishops) we got from them, might as well give them something in return. Question is, would they even have her?

But any such move would cut her off from her bread and butter. If she just finally cut her institutional ties, it would be harder to get on TV, and travel the country addressing fellow dissidents who snatch up her books like quicker than you can snap your fingers.

I think this picture of the Radical nun is a lot more inspiring. See how happy she is…did she get her own way?

 

[obadiah]

First deragatory insinuations about character and mental stability, and now we have now crossed the threshhold of name calling with “wierdos.”

I’m a real weirdo.

 

[obadiah]

I just returned from attending beautiful Traditional Latin Mass, but I’m not sure whether it was an Episcopal or a Roman Catholic service. Today’s Thursday evening 6:00 PM service was listed as the Vigil of St. Lawrence (Comm. St. Romanus) Mass. The priest wore a funny looking black hat on the way in and then took it off. He put the hat back on just before he left the alter. Here is the link for the church:

stmargmaryoak.org/

Your help identifying whether it was Episcopal or Roman Catholic will be greatly appreciated, because I’m not sure what denomination?

Anyway, the church pictures at the Internet site look washed out compared to being there. The carpeting is bright Red, there is indirect lighting behind the alter, there were colorful statues, and the sun on the stained glass windows during the 6:00 PM Mass was a sight to be hold. If there are any questions, I will be glad to answer them.

As a Protestant I knelt up at the alter and put my hands under the table cloth like the others. When the priest came by with the wafers I crossed my arms across my chest, and he blessed me in Latin.

Richard

I just thought I’d bring the Original Post back into alignment.

 

[dessert]

I think this picture of the Radical nun is a lot more inspiring. See how happy she is…did she get her own way?

She didn’t get her way and brought others along with her to the excommuncating line. She was radical and reactionary and revolutionarrey

So she must think she is like a Joan of arc, but her cause is her total herself. This is a good example of getting to big a head and thinking oneself is so right, or left.

Many think the end justifies the means and results in them being irrational much like a Hitler. She couldn’t reason anymore or see the truth, she is blinded by herr own desires over God’s as having many followers praobably made her think with so much meida she was like a god. I feel sorry for her as she is certainly representing
like in biblical times the people who were possessed and running off a cliff.

 

[obadiah]

IMHO pentecostals are prostelizing, don’t think I spelled this correct. Much like a subculture does.

Pray for the Catholic/Orthodox Church in Central and South America.:yup: :bowdown2: :byzsoc:

 

[bpbasilphx]

Two things:

1. << I feel sorry for her as she is certainly representing
   like in biblical times the people who were possessed and running off a cliff. >> If you read the Gospel story, they were pigs, not people.
2. Regarding habits, I can assure you as a monk that the garb of holy poverty is, alas, rather expensive.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Simple sinner please calm down, everyone calm down,
I think I have a good explanation for this pic.

The explination is that it was taken in Greenwhich Village Circa 1972 and captioned - for a story in the NYT I bleive - “Modern Roman Catholic Nun.”

I am doing my best to be calm to begin with. I have been insulted here. Name calling just is not a part of this forums behavior no matter the disagreement.

It is my thread and my question. (You are way off topic). If I appear a little disgruntled with your unrelated wise cracks, you are absolutely correct. I would appreciate you stop using me and this thread for your political agenda.

Richard

TO be quite clear, threads are not proprietary. No one owns them, this is not a blog.

As the conversation moved to discussion of why a charismatic expression of spirituality cannot be accomadated in the Tridentine Mass, the topic of understanding the Catholicity of aspects of this movement - namely speaking in tongues. When the issue of how a Catholic could feel comfortable and confident that some of these new expressions of spirituality were compatible with the Catholic Faith as they are presented, it was offered:

That is an easy one to answer. All we have to do is go to the Acts of the Apostles, Chapter 6 and read what Gamaliel had to say:

In my own words, some of the leaders wanted to kill Peter and John, However, Gamaliel (a Pharisee and doctor of the law who had an outstanding reputation) told the other rulers that if the work was of God they could not stop it and if it wasn’t they didn’t have to worry about it. Because of Gamaliel’s reputation as a Pharisee and doctor of the law,they agreed to let the apostles go.

Now if we apply Gamaliel’s principle to the present Catholic Charismatic Renewal: We have been around for 40 years and we have a letter commending all of us in the loving intercession of Mary, Mother of the Church. That letter is from the Vatican ( a 2000 year old church), and the letter is current, dated 21 February 2007. It seems like our work is of God and that no one can stop us? But of course, like Gamaliel said, if it isn’t, you don’t have to worry about it.

If I misunderstood, please forgive, but my Catholic sensibilities - with our understanding of error, mortal sin, and the care that must be taken with one’s soul - found a certain concept, problematic. Namely that 40 years of “seeing where this goes” is difficult to accept as a litmus test for accepting something as compatible with the Catholic faith.

From there I took liberty to demonstrate the mindset of a Catholic Traditionalist - namely, that 40 through the course of 40 years, the eschewing of tradition for innovative new approaches, and its continued existence, does not always bode well.

 

[obadiah]

…

…2. Regarding habits, I can assure you as a monk that the garb of holy poverty is, alas, rather expensive.

Couldn’t I just dye a sheet black, and make a habit out of that?

 

[Holy_Roller]

The explination is that it was taken in Greenwhich Village Circa 1972 and captioned - for a story in the NYT I bleive - “Modern Roman Catholic Nun.”

I am doing my best to be calm to begin with. I have been insulted here. Name calling just is not a part of this forums behavior no matter the disagreement.

I finally got back to this thread and read the recent posts. It looks like you need to be minister to more than the others, so I’ll start with you. Basically, when a Protestant crosses the line, like I did, he knows that some Catholics hate Protestants. You are wasting your time by typing it out for me.

During this thread you were able to politically manipulate my simple question into 155 posts with 1,845 views. From a political stand point, you have been a real success as a trouble maker. Congratulations! Now that you have everyone stirred up, go see if you can get the forum administrator on your side.

Then there is the simple Gamaliel principle that you can’t get a handle on.

I will cut and paste my views on how Christians can get along together, and remember, these are my view, please don’t separate the sentences and insert your own belief. Here it goes again:

The Christian faith is not monolithic. It’s not cut and dried where everyone believes the same thing. We are called differently: (Eph. 4:11,12) I can understand your fear about the authenticity of the Charismatic Renewal. Many elements are practiced by the Protestants, which of course, you seem to hate with a passion. Some Protestants, like my self, share the Sacraments with you, at least in outward form. Are you to reject these things because Protestants share them? Hardly! We are to rejoice because we have so much in common in Christ. We are after all, brothers and sisters in Christ, even if we disagree about a few things that are theological in nature.

Don’t bother to quote church documents on issues, but suffice it to say that we are to rejoice in the common element, we have in Christ. The fact that we don’t share everything is a source of prayer for an ultimate reconciliation in Christ as we join in His prayer, “may they all be one.”<

Richard

 

[obadiah]

I finally got back to this thread and read the recent posts. It looks like you need to be minister to more than the others, so I’ll start with you. Basically, when a Protestant crosses the line, like I did, he knows that some Catholics hate Protestants. You are wasting your time by typing it out for me.

During this thread you were able to politically manipulate my simple question into 155 posts with 1,845 views. From a political stand point, you have been a real success as a trouble maker. Congratulations! Now that you have everyone stirred up, go see if you can get the forum administrator on your side.

Then there is the simple Gamaliel principle that you can’t get a handle on.

I will cut and paste my views on how Christians can get along together, and remember, these are my view, please don’t separate the sentences and insert your own belief. Here it goes again:

The Christian faith is not monolithic. It’s not cut and dried where everyone believes the same thing. We are called differently: (Eph. 4:11,12) I can understand your fear about the authenticity of the Charismatic Renewal. Many elements are practiced by the Protestants, which of course, you seem to hate with a passion. Some Protestants, like my self, share the Sacraments with you, at least in outward form. Are you to reject these things because Protestants share them? Hardly! We are to rejoice because we have so much in common in Christ. We are after all, brothers and sisters in Christ, even if we disagree about a few things that are theological in nature.

First of all, as an Orthodox Christian, I would say, WE have NOTHING in common with any Protestant denomination. Unless the Protestants repent and go either for the Roman Catholic or the Eastern Orthodox Church, we have no fellowship.

 

[Contarini]

Episcopal just means bishop - the priest was specifically delegated to perform the 1962 mass by the bishop, thus making him an “Episcopal delegate.”

The Episcopal church calls itself Episcopal because the highest authorities they have are their bishops - they don’t have a Pope figure. The term “episcopal” isn’t specific to Episcopalians.

Well, actually “Episcopal” is used as a designation primarily in contrast to other Protestants, who don’t have bishops. The largest Methodist denomination in the United States used to be called the Methodist Episcopal Church, and many people mistakenly think that this was a hybrid of Methodism and Episcopalianism which has since split. It simply meant that Methodists had bishops (though not with a distinctly episcopal succession–they are really just presbyters elected to a superintending role, and Wesley did not want them to be called bishops). The term is still used by the three African-American Methodist denominations.

The Episcopal Church used to call itself the “Protestant Episcopal Church,” and I think that this is still the official name under which we are incorporated (though there has been a recent name change and that may no longer be the case). However, with the Anglo-Catholic movement of the 19th century many Episcopalians no longer wanted to identify themselves as Protestants.

Edwin

 

[Holy_Roller]

First of all, as an Orthodox Christian, I would say, WE have NOTHING in common with any Protestant denomination. Unless the Protestants repent and go either for the Roman Catholic or the Eastern Orthodox Church, we have no fellowship.

That’s okay by me. I have never heard a Protestant complain about the Orthodox Christians. The friction seems to be with the Roman Catholics? What surprised me is that the new Pope recently posted a decree accepting what the Protestants believe and welcoming them back to attend Mass and to fellowship with laypeople. The only stipulation that I know of, was that we are not to have communion.

Based on some of the posts here on this forum, Pope Benedict must have his head in the clouds, because many to the Catholic laypeople have yet to be conditioned by their own parish to accept these Protestant invaders. So far, no one who I have spoken to even knows about the recent decree, and most still cling onto the old arguments from Medieval times.

I’m not all the fired up about the Charismatic Renewal either, because it’s a thorn in the side of many Catholics, as well as many Protestants. Why the Lord lead me down this path and others down a different path is unknown to me? One thing is for sure, I don’t have to repent for being a Protestant under the Pope Benedict’s decree. We have been accepted for who we are. Praise God!

Richard

 

[bpbasilphx]

<<That‚s okay by me. I have never heard a Protestant complain about the Orthodox Christians.>>

Trust me, I have.

And as you might suspect, they get things wrong.