Is Tridentine Mass Episcopal or Roman Catholic?

[KathleenElsie]

We have traditionally had Masses devoted to various purposes – including Thanksgiving and Requiem Masses. There’s nothing wrong with devoting a Mass to healing

I agree. But to be honest if the person next to me started speaking in “strange” languages loudly next to me I would probably just stand up a leave. The healing Masses I have heard about were with the laying on of hands.

 

[historyb]

No. It is not correct. The very reason for the return of the TLM as an extraordinary rite of the Roman Church is, in part, to return a liturgy that is not to be tampered with, modernized, or added to in this fashion.

You certainly will not see rock bands, and it will not be kosher to add prayers as you mention so long as they are in Latin.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Have you ever been to a Pentecostal Church? I’m thinking ’ Full Gospel ’ or ’ Apostolic Faith’ those are two Trinitarian Churches, they can get fairly wild sometimes, every body shouting, jumping around, screaming, talking in tongues all at once.
I have been to some very beautiful Catholic Charismatic Masses back in the 70’s. I’m not talking about them, they are within the Catholic Church, and have the approval of the Bishop. I feel if it’s done within that context in an orderly manner, then it’s good. I couldn’t see it happening in the Orthodox Church, but I heard about something like that years ago.

Left when things went wild. It scared me and so I left the premises.

 

[KathleenElsie]

It appears to be – how can we tell it’s not?

Why?

Paul said it should be limited to two or three, and frankly, I’ve never seen even one – but if someone should be called to talk in tongues, I’d be hard pressed to call them sinful.

From Paul’s writing, it appears to be spontaneous – it could happen in any service. Again, Paul cautioned us to limit it to two or three if it happens He also said that there MUST be one that can interpret it and that it dod NOT cause confusion… I would agree with that – I wouldn’t want to spend a couple of hours listening to dozens and dozens of people talking in tongues and then waiting for translations.

 

[obadiah]

Left when things went wild. It scared me and so I left the premises.

Sounds like you were listening to the Holy Spirit. I used to be Pentecostal, I became Orthodox because the Pentecostal Church seemed far too " feeling oriented ", no real substance. It seemed every one had some sort of new revelation from ’ the Lord.’ The problem with groups like that is people think every thing they do is “led by the spirit.”

 

[vern_humphrey]

I agree. But to be honest if the person next to me started speaking in “strange” languages loudly next to me I would probably just stand up a leave. The healing Masses I have heard about were with the laying on of hands.

Come to Saint Mary’s in Mountain View, Arkansas. I’m an usher, so if things get out of hand, I’ll just go over and tell 'em to ush!

 

[ASimpleSinner]

It appears to be – how can we tell it’s not?

More problematic is “How can we tell it is?” If there is question as to whether there is poison in the water, who would drink it?

Can you sight any church documents or teachings that demonstrate this understanding that you have of these scriptural passages? Saints that manifested it in this way?

 

[Holy_Roller]

More problematic is “How can we tell it is?” If there is question as to whether there is poison in the water, who would drink it?

Can you sight any church documents or teachings that demonstrate this understanding that you have of these scriptural passages? Saints that manifested it in this way?

That is an easy one to answer. All we have to do is go to the Acts of the Apostles, Chapter 6 and read what Gamaliel had to say:

In my own words, some of the leaders wanted to kill Peter and John, However, Gamaliel (a Pharisee and doctor of the law who had an outstanding reputation) told the other rulers that if the work was of God they could not stop it and if it wasn’t they didn’t have to worry about it. Because of Gamaliel’s reputation as a Pharisee and doctor of the law,they agreed to let the apostles go.

Now if we apply Gamaliel’s principle to the present Catholic Charismatic Renewal: We have been around for 40 years and we have a letter commending all of us in the loving intercession of Mary, Mother of the Church. That letter is from the Vatican ( a 2000 year old church), and the letter is current, dated 21 February 2007. It seems like our work is of God and that no one can stop us? But of course, like Gamaliel said, if it isn’t, you don’t have to worry about it.

Here are the 2 verses:

“And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: For if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.” (Acts 5:38,39)

Anyway, I think that I have my wife and mother-in-law talked into going to High Mass with me tomorrow. It will be a Tridentine Mass with a pipe organ and plenty of smoke. This thread is getting long and wide, so I will start a new thread tomorrow afternoon.

Richard

 

[ASimpleSinner]

That is an easy one to answer. All we have to do is go to the Acts of the Apostles, Chapter 6 and read what Gamaliel had to say:

In my own words, some of the leaders wanted to kill Peter and John, However, Gamaliel (a Pharisee and doctor of the law who had an outstanding reputation) told the other rulers that if the work was of God they could not stop it and if it wasn’t they didn’t have to worry about it. Because of Gamaliel’s reputation as a Pharisee and doctor of the law,they agreed to let the apostles go.

Now if we apply Gamaliel’s principle to the present Catholic Charismatic Renewal: We have been around for 40 years and we have a letter commending all of us in the loving intercession of Mary, Mother of the Church. That letter is from the Vatican ( a 2000 year old church), and the letter is current, dated 21 February 2007. It seems like our work is of God and that no one can stop us? But of course, like Gamaliel said, if it isn’t, you don’t have to worry about it.

Problematic to me is that this interpretation gives a “Free reign trial period” to way too much. How many folks get lost along the way as people are told “well let’s see where this goes”?

Very sadly, in the Catholic Church we have already given 4 decades to watch this: http://www.nyu.edu/library/bobst/research/arch/images/village_07big.jpg

devolve into this:

http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/obedienceandaction/images/chittister-wow.jpg

Additionally, 4 decades in the life of the Church is a blink of an eye.

Anyway, I think that I have my wife and mother-in-law talked into going to High Mass with me tomorrow. It will be a Tridentine Mass with a pipe organ and plenty of smoke. This thread is getting long and wide, so I will start a new thread tomorrow afternoon.

That to me is happy news. Go with prayers in your heart, and when you move forward for a blessing first pray for me and then ask “Lord, what on earth is that sinner talking about?”

See where it goes from there.

 

[dessert]

Problematic to me is that this interpretation gives a “Free reign trial period” to way too much. How many folks get lost along the way as people are told “well let’s see where this goes”?

Very sadly, in the Catholic Church we have already given 4 decades to watch this: http://www.nyu.edu/library/bobst/research/arch/images/village_07big.jpg

devolve into this:

http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/obedienceandaction/images/chittister-wow.jpg

Additionally, 4 decades in the life of the Church is a blink of an eye.

That to me is happy news. Go with prayers in your heart, and when you move forward for a blessing first pray for me and then ask “Lord, what on earth is that sinner talking about?”

See where it goes from there.

We can’t really go all the way back sinner we must go forward a small step at a time. Another direction a different path that will lead us back on the right path.

The Holy Father, we must believe will hold our hand and get us through and so let us also pray for him.

And for the fallen away.
Dessert

 

[ASimpleSinner]

We can’t really go all the way back sinner we must go forward a small step at a time. Another direction a different path that will lead us back on the right path.

The Holy Father, we must believe will hold our hand and get us through and so let us also pray for him.

And for the fallen away.
Dessert

About this I am agreed.

My point is that it is not prudent to allow free reign to new movements on the grounds we are saying “well let’s see where this goes.”

Tenants of orthodoxy must be upheld and examined first and foremost.

 

[dessert]

About this I am agreed.

My point is that it is not prudent to allow free reign to new movements on the grounds we are saying “well let’s see where this goes.”

Tenants of orthodoxy must be upheld and examined first and foremost.

Yes things can snowball or we get a ripple effect, as a mass is not suppose to be show off time like a football game.

Therefore I do not like the loud shouting, or some call praise at other churches.

But most get conditioned or sensitized to what ever you experience so if I goes to a quiet mass my turmoious self gets quieted and if I go to a loud clapping mass I get stimulated and go back to the quiet it seems dull.

But if I continue to go to the quiet I finnally become sensitive again to the quiet voice I should be hearing. Just to let you know it took a bout a year for me to quiet down.
Dessert

 

[dessert]

About this I am agreed.

Tenants of orthodoxy must be upheld and examined first and foremost.

Yes i agree there must be some order, mass is not just fun and singing and clapping hands it is serious and we must have a quiet heart to hear His still voice I think.

To pray and to stay awake that is the ticket.

Well I need to get off the puter there is a sudden storm a brewing a big wind just came up and lots of thunder Have a very blessed day today and looking forward to more discussion. Dessert

 

[obadiah]

Very sadly, in the Catholic Church we have already given 4 decades to watch this: http://www.nyu.edu/library/bobst/research/arch/images/village_07big.jpg

devolve into this:

http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/obedienceandaction/images/chittister-wow.jpg

Additionally, 4 decades in the life of the Church is a blink of an eye.

.

Is that the same nun?

 

[jpaul]

You misquoted me: I did not say that I take my Catholic mother-in-law to a Pentecostal church, I said that I take my Catholic mother-in-law to church.

And yes, I like comfortable seats and professional entertainers.

Richard

Richard,

Peace and all-good!

There is no home like the Catholic Church. Our souls will be restless until they rest in the true Church of Christ.

May God bless you and your household always!

Ave Maria!

jpaul

 

[KathleenElsie]

That is an easy one to answer. All we have to do is go to the Acts of the Apostles, Chapter 6 and read what Gamaliel had to say:

In my own words, some of the leaders wanted to kill Peter and John, However, Gamaliel (a Pharisee and doctor of the law who had an outstanding reputation) told the other rulers that if the work was of God they could not stop it and if it wasn’t they didn’t have to worry about it. Because of Gamaliel’s reputation as a Pharisee and doctor of the law,they agreed to let the apostles go.

Now if we apply Gamaliel’s principle to the present Catholic Charismatic Renewal: We have been around for 40 years and we have a letter commending all of us in the loving intercession of Mary, Mother of the Church. That letter is from the Vatican ( a 2000 year old church), and the letter is current, dated 21 February 2007. It seems like our work is of God and that no one can stop us? But of course, like Gamaliel said, if it isn’t, you don’t have to worry about it.

Here are the 2 verses:

“And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: For if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to naught: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.” (Acts 5:38,39)

Anyway, I think that I have my wife and mother-in-law talked into going to High Mass with me tomorrow. It will be a Tridentine Mass with a pipe organ and plenty of smoke. This thread is getting long and wide, so I will start a new thread tomorrow afternoon.

Richard

In this IMHO you are wrong. An a non -Catholic (your words) you are not part of the Catholic Charismatic movement. I have known some people for years that are members of our Parish. The other day I found out they were in the Catholic Charismatic community. They are loyal to and follow the Holy Mother Church and these are the ones that are producing the fruits that the Vatican is talking about. IMHO

 

[vern_humphrey]

More problematic is “How can we tell it is?” If there is question as to whether there is poison in the water, who would drink it?

If it’s taking place in a Catholic church, you can drink it.

Can you sight any church documents or teachings that demonstrate this understanding that you have of these scriptural passages? Saints that manifested it in this way?

The Papal approval for the Charismatic revival has been cited several times.

 

[KathleenElsie]

If it’s taking place in a Catholic church, you can drink it.

The Papal approval for the Charismatic revival has been cited several times.

We just have to remember that the Papal approval is for the Catholic Charismatic movement. I have not head of the same types of abuses in these services as I have in the Evangelical Holly Roller type charismatic services.

And yes I do agree if it is taking place in a Catholic Church that is in communion with Rome it you can drink it. But, you might not want to LOL.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Is that the same nun?

No. I don’t believe so.

The former was taken in NYC in the immediate aftermath of V2 - when the orders had begun reform with modified habits and many went out into “the modern world”.

The latter is Sr. Joan Chitister who has been agitating for women’s ordination for years, and has been a political activist for decades.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

             . . ..

The latter is Sr. Joan Chitister who has been agitating for women’s ordination for years, and has been a political activist for decades.

As I recall she got her 15 minutes of fame when she explained to Pope JPII how he should run the Church during his visit to the US years ago.