ISIS reaches center of Rhamadi

[Ridgerunner]

Isis is winning! They have to be stopped. If the spiritual reasons do not matter to a person (they are the personification of evil) then hopefully the practical reasons will convince them. No oil means the death of western civilization *. The only way to stop Isis is with boots on the ground.

• That may sound like an exaggeration. However, if Isis takes over the middle east then we will have less time to transition away from oil (it is probably too late). We are running out of oil. Without oil means no military (tanks, jets etc) and starvation.

With Obama in office, the only present possibility of stopping ISIS is if Iran knocks them off, and Iran probably has no interests presently other than holding onto Iraq’s Shiite areas and keeping Assad in power in at least a good part of Syria. Obama knew this would happen, having been warned by his own experts that it would happen, but he facilitated it anyway. So he won’t change.

I knew, the minute he was elected in 2008, that this would happen, because he said what he would do and nobody could change his mind. And those who voted for him should have seen it too.

 

[Path_Finder]

We are running out of oil. If Isis wins we will not have time to transition.
That would be a disaster. Our military runs on oil (tanks,planes etc). Oil is needed for food production.

Actually, we are not running out of oil, there has been a glut on the market, the oil fields have had to lay off employees, the price has dramatically dropped.

 

[Tomdstone]

With all the violence taking place in US cities, perhaps the boots on the ground should be here at home ?

Good idea. Americans should be able to know that their businesses are not going to be burned down.

 

[Ridgerunner]

With all the violence taking place in US cities, perhaps the boots on the ground should be here at home ?

We haven’t got a clue what’s going on in the ME.

We see the atrocities of ISIS, but what we don’t see is the covert support their getting from powerful sources.

We need our people home, let the ME go the way it always has, perpetual tribal sectarian warfare.

Jim

There are already boots on the ground in the U.S. Shoes too. They’re police boots and shoes. It’s not a lack of boots, it’s a matter of politicians pandering to the worst elements in society.

We actually do have a clue what’s going on in the Middle East. Iran and ISIS are fighting for control of the center. No mystery there. And we know who supports whom. Iran supports, even leads, the Shiite terrorist militias. Saudi Arabia and the oil emirates support Sunni terrorist groups, would like to pre-empt ISIS with money, and might get it done eventually. Not that they like ISIS, or aren’t threatened by it. But as between Iran and ISIS, they see Iran as the bigger threat, and they’re right about that.

It is tempting to retreat to our own shores and let those in the Middle East slaughter each other; Christians first of course, Jews next. But fairly soon they’ll be nuclear powers, and that will be a very different situation.

 

[Path_Finder]

With all the violence taking place in US cities, perhaps the boots on the ground should be here at home ?

We haven’t got a clue what’s going on in the ME.

We see the atrocities of ISIS, but what we don’t see is the covert support their getting from powerful sources.

We need our people home, let the ME go the way it always has, perpetual tribal sectarian warfare.

Jim

Guesswork on your end, furthermore, it seems to be Christian to finish the job, not to fumble away the peace as General Austin wished for troops to remain there.

Sounds like a lot of liberals say the problem is the police, so how would more troops help out a city like Baltimore?

 

[wittgenstein]

Actually, we are not running out of oil, there has been a glut on the market, the oil fields have had to lay off employees, the price has dramatically dropped.

That is no longer true. Gas prices are increasing again. The short drop was probably due to fracking. Imagine that you have only one centimetre of soda. So to get at it you force sludge into the glass to get that soda to the top where you can get at it. That is basically what fracking is.
All this talk of the XL pipeline is silly. Its like putting another straw into your drink. You will get more soda for a short time but your soda will run out faster.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Guesswork on your end, furthermore, it seems to be Christian to finish the job, not to fumble away the peace as General Austin wished for troops to remain there.

Sounds like a lot of liberals say the problem is the police, so how would more troops help out a city like Baltimore?

It was more a figure of speech pointing out that we have issues at home which we need to fix before trying to fix tribal wars in the ME.

It isn’t Christian to take nations into unjust wars as we did in Iraq under Bush. Even St Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Ratzinger opposed that war.

Pope John Paul II said that leaders who take their nations into wars, will answer to God for all the evils that the war brings about.

All war brings out evil, even when the end desire is good.

Jim

 

[wittgenstein]

I was against the Iraq war. We were lied to by Cheny/Bush etc.
However, the war against Isis is totaly different. People always fight the last war.
Its like saying we should not have fought against Hitler because WW1 was a mistake.

 

[Path_Finder]

I was against the Iraq war. We were lied to by Cheny/Bush etc.
However, the war against Isis is totaly different. People always fight the last war.
Its like saying we should not have fought against Hitler because WW1 was a mistake.

No they didn’t lie, this is vilifying them. This narrative should not be accepted, previous Democrats said much the same thing.

“One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line.”
–President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

“If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction program.”
–President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

“Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face.”
–Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

“He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983.”
–Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm

 

[Path_Finder]

That is no longer true. Gas prices are increasing again. The short drop was probably due to fracking. Imagine that you have only one centimetre of soda. So to get at it you force sludge into the glass to get that soda to the top where you can get at it. That is basically what fracking is.
All this talk of the XL pipeline is silly. Its like putting another straw into your drink. You will get more soda for a short time but your soda will run out faster.

The Saudis have not been taken over nor appear to be by ISIS nor Iran, these are oil suppliers too. Mexico, Nigeria and many countries easily take up the void.

Just because the price of oil has gone back up a little bit doesn’t indicate a whole lot. It usually goes back up for summer holidays.

 

[bibcat]

I was against the Iraq war. We were lied to by Cheny/Bush etc.
However, the war against Isis is totaly different. People always fight the last war.
Its like saying we should not have fought against Hitler because WW1 was a mistake.

We fought Hitler because WW1 created him. Blowback is a bear.

 

[bibcat]

No they didn’t lie, this is vilifying them. This narrative should not be accepted, previous Democrats said much the same thing.

davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm

Yes we were lied to. The whole WMD thing was “sexed-up”, as the British said. And pushing for the Iraq war with outrageous statements ("the next smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud? oy!) is the reason Colin Powell and Condie Rice will never seek public office again. And as for “previous democrats”, the only difference between a neocon and and a neolib is his stand on social issues.

 

[bibcat]

The Saudis have not been taken over nor appear to be by ISIS nor Iran, these are oil suppliers too. Mexico, Nigeria and many countries easily take up the void.

Just because the price of oil has gone back up a little bit doesn’t indicate a whole lot. It usually goes back up for summer holidays.

Exactly. And the speculators having been doing their best to try to reinflate the price of oil after it dropped to a rational level (40s) earlier this year. The best they can do is keep it near 60, but the bubble they created won’t be reinflated for a long time. Gas is still MUCH cheaper than it was last summer. I’ve seen $2.39/gal in fact (GA). Allowing for inflation, that’s as cheap as it was when Elvis was still skinny.

 

[Path_Finder]

Yes we were lied to. The whole WMD thing was “sexed-up”, as the British said. And pushing for the Iraq war with outrageous statements ("the next smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud? oy!) is the reason Colin Powell and Condie Rice will never seek public office again. And as for “previous democrats”, the only difference between a neocon and and a neolib is his stand on social issues.

What does neocon or neolib have to do with the conversation?

When American tanks smashed into Baghdad, Saddam had already completed construction of an anthrax production facility, which was a week away from going live. If it had been permitted to go into production, this one facility could have produced ten tons of weaponized anthrax a year. Experts estimate that anthrax spores that infect the skin will kill 50 percent of untreated victims. Inhaled anthrax will kill 100 percent of untreated victims and 50 percent of those receiving immediate treatment. That means that a mere 1 percent of Saddam’s annual production (200 pounds) sprayed by crop-duster over New York City would have killed upwards of three million people.

Read more at: nationalreview.com/article/277115/saddam-what-we-now-know-jim-lacey

Furthermore, even in 2003, the radical message board Democratic Underground followed the story and published the pictures of that huge caravan of trucks that made its way to Syria possibly carrying WMDs.

NSA and then General Clapper thought as well that WMDs were moved out of the country, Clapper is an Obama man so would not have any reason to side with Bush.

worldtribune.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/TRUCKSsyria-iraq-wmd11.jpg

 

[bibcat]

What does neocon or neolib have to do with the conversation?

Read more at: nationalreview.com/article/277115/saddam-what-we-now-know-jim-lacey

Furthermore, even in 2003, the radical message board Democratic Underground followed the story and published the pictures of that huge caravan of trucks that made its way to Syria possibly carrying WMDs.

NSA and then General Clapper thought as well that WMDs were moved out of the country, Clapper is an Obama man so would not have any reason to side with Bush.

Neocon and neolib have plenty to do with it, because when it comes to foreign policy and America;s imperial muscle-flexing, neolibs (mostly dems) and neocons(mostly GOP) think alike. As for the whole WMD’s went to Syria meme, read this, please. wired.com/2012/07/syria-iraq-wmd-meme/ and nbcnews.com/id/6834079/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/us-found-no-evidence-wmd-moved-iraq/ And the whole “mobile labs” thing is conjecture. As for DU being “radical”, it’s no more so than some of the opinions posted here, just in a different direction.

 

[Path_Finder]

Neocon and neolib have plenty to do with it, because when it comes to foreign policy and America;s imperial muscle-flexing, neolibs (mostly dems) and neocons(mostly GOP) think alike. As for the whole WMD’s went to Syria meme, read this, please. wired.com/2012/07/syria-iraq-wmd-meme/ and nbcnews.com/id/6834079/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/us-found-no-evidence-wmd-moved-iraq/ And the whole “mobile labs” thing is conjecture. As for DU being “radical”, it’s no more so than some of the opinions posted here, just in a different direction.

“The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Sadaam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons…”

• Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

“I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security.”

• Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

worldtribune.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/TRUCKSsyria-iraq-wmd11.jpg

What it is, is that Clinton should have enforced the UN treaty if anything.

But this is a blame game.

I will go with Clapper’s knowledge at this.

Add to that, the NY Times reported this year, the CIA was buying those poisonous warheads to take them out of circulation.

nytimes.com/2015/02/16/world/cia-is-said-to-have-bought-and-destroyed-iraqi-chemical-weapons.html?_r=0

This is different than the stocks they reportedly stumbled upon while there.

 

[Tomdstone]

It isn’t Christian to take nations into unjust wars as we did in Iraq under Bush. Even St Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Ratzinger opposed that war.

Pope John Paul II said that leaders who take their nations into wars, will answer to God for all the evils that the war brings about.

All war brings out evil, even when the end desire is good.

Jim

True. this is why in Christian teaching, war is always a last resort.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I was against the Iraq war. We were lied to by Cheny/Bush etc.
However, the war against Isis is totaly different. People always fight the last war.
Its like saying we should not have fought against Hitler because WW1 was a mistake.

The “non-war” against ISIS is, indeed, different than the Iraq War, in that we are essentially not participating in the “war with ISIS” other than to have our air force supply a little air support for Iranian forces. The Iraq War was a real war.

They’re also different in that we won the Iraq War whereas we’re losing the “non-war” against ISIS.

And the reason why we’re in the “non-war” against ISIS is that Obama threw away the victory in the IRaq War. Even his own military and intelligence advisors told him that and now say it publicly.

And compared to Saddam Hussein’s regime, ISIS is, indeed, the junior varsity. Obama was right about that. The only problem is that even the junior varsity can win if they get a “bye”.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Exactly. And the speculators having been doing their best to try to reinflate the price of oil after it dropped to a rational level (40s) earlier this year. The best they can do is keep it near 60, but the bubble they created won’t be reinflated for a long time. Gas is still MUCH cheaper than it was last summer. I’ve seen $2.39/gal in fact (GA). Allowing for inflation, that’s as cheap as it was when Elvis was still skinny.

Around here, it briefly went below $2.00. That really is of some significance, because gasoline has always been between $2.00 and $4.00/gallon ever since the beginning of the 20th Century, adjusted for inflation.

 

[Ridgerunner]

No they didn’t lie, this is vilifying them. This narrative should not be accepted, previous Democrats said much the same thing.

davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm

They told the truth as far as was known regarding WMD. Regardless, they have been finding WMD in Iraq ever since the war ended. Two summers ago, they thought they destroyed the last of it. The Brits were hired to do that by the Iraqi government. Canada took the yellow cake and turned it into peaceful uses. But more has been discovered hidden in residential areas. There’s no telling how far into the future it will be found. Remember that they’re still finding unexploded bombs from WWII in Germany. I doubt all the WMD will be found in Iraq for decades. Saddam had a way of burying incriminating things out in the desert, then killing the people who buried it.

But regardless, WMD was not the only reason for the war. After Phase I of the war, there was only a truce. Saddam broke it almost constantly until Phase II, and by acts that are ordinarily considered acts of war. That does not even include his support of terror, which he also did.

And even at that, there were justifications for it under the Just War doctrine. Saddam Hussein was responsible for the deaths of approximately a million people. He started two aggressive wars, maintained his WMD capability, lied to UN inspectors, killed approximately 100,000 people all told with poison gas, paid parents of children to send their kids to be suicide bombers in Israel, and repeatedly broke the truce. If removing a man like that doesn’t present a just cause to some, I think we can reasonably conclude that for those people, nothing is a just cause.

And certainly, for Obama and his followers, genocide is not a just cause. Handing Libya over to Islamic radicals by military action, of course, was a just cause in his mind. And it seems that was a just cause for his supporters too, because you never see them criticize him for it. In Libya, as in Iraq, Barack Obama is the best friend Islamic radicals ever had. And, in supporting him and his policies, (endorsed by Hillary Clinton, of course) so are his supporters.