Islam and Original Sin

[Montalban]

Were you ashamed of your nakedness when born? How did you learn about your nakedness? I don’t think you were born with Huggies diaper. Do you? They had to know their nakedness someway at sometime. This is the way they knew it. How did you come to know about your nakedness?

You hit the nail on the head, for when they were created, they were without knowledge that they were naked!

 

[De_Maria]

Hi, I’d like to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. Including our Muslim brethren. I don’t know if this thread will continue, I’ll be gone for the next 8 days. So, I’d like to sum up what I think has become crystal clear in this discussion:

1. Muslims don’t understand Catholic doctrine.
2. Muslims misrepresent the Catholic doctrine of Original Sin.
3. In its misrepresentation of the Catholic Doctrine of Original Sin, Islam contradicts its own teaching. (i.e. that Allah did not punish all when He kicked Adam and Eve out of Paradise and that Adam and Eve were not created for Paradise.)

In addition, we can contrast the two Religious Teachings thus:

1. Islam teaches that Allah created man for the express purpose that man would sin.

In contrast, the Church teaches that God created man for Himself.

1. Islam’s teaching does not account for man’s sin, for man’s suffering, death, or for his salvation.

Catholic doctrine based upon Original Sin ties every loose end. It explains man’s propensity to sin, why God permits even the good to suffer, why men must die, and why God prefers to save mankind out of His extraordinary love.

The Beauty, Logic and Wisdom of Catholic teaching should be plain for everyone to see.

May God bless you all,

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

The first Question from Sirajuddin, a Christian:

According to the Christian beliefs, Christ’s mission to come in this world was for Love of the humanity and to offer his Sacrifice for the fellow human being. Was this the mission of the founder of Islam also in the same meaning or not? Could his mission be described in other better words than Love or Sacrifice?

The Response by the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908, continued from my previous post #20 :

When we contemplate on the nature of sin from the aspect of inherent spiritual philosophy behind it and its reality our research also confirms this fact that this belief is a bad belief. The sin in reality is a poison created when a human is dispossessed of the obedience of God and deprived of His fervent love and loving memory of Him and is totally unfortunate in this respect. Like a tree when it is uprooted and is unable to suck in water from the earth its process of becoming dried up starts and all its greenery gets ruined.

Just like it the individual whose heart is uprooted from the love of God, that dryness of sin prevails over him, hence its cure lies in God’s law of nature in three distinct ways:

1. Love
2. Istighfar which means the natural desire to press something or to remain covered and sheltered. As long as a tree has its roots imbedded in earth it hopes to get green again. Compensate, recompense, make up for
3. The third cure is repentance i.e. to suck water of life with utmost humility and to bend towards God and to draw near Him to get respite from the sinful posture by doing appropriate and good works and repentance is not mere with the tongue but the completeness of repentance is with good and appropriate actions.

All virtues are done with a desire to complete the repentance as all are done to draw one near God. Praying is also a means of repentance and with it we endeavor nearness to God. It is for this that God created the spirit in humans and named it soul as its real comfort is affirmation with God and His love and His obedience and that’s why it was named nafus (in Arabic diction nafus means the image of the same thing and hence it is destined to unite with God. To have connection of heart with God is like a tree in the garden which is steadfastly embedded in the earth.

This is what is called heaven of a man. Like a tree that sucks in water from earth and draws water inwards from earth and through it casts out its poisonous fumes, the heart of a human is just like that he sucks in love of God by drawing water and by ousting poisonous substances and gets flourished and with great ease it throws out such hazardous substances and in God it grows and from Him it flourishes and gets its power and spreads and shows its very beautiful greenery and bears good fruits.

But he who is not rooted in God he cannot draw and suck nourishing water and hence gets dried up eventually and at last drops its leaves and gets dried up and what is left are only ill shaped branches. The dryness of sin is created because of losing contact and hence its cure lies in straight and consistent contact. The law of nature stands witness to it.

GodAllahYHWH hints towards it when He says in The Holy Quran: Chapter 89: Al-Fajr:
[89:28] O, thou soul at peace!
[89:29] Return to thy Lord, thou well-pleased with Him and He well-pleased with thee.
[89:30] So enter thou among My chosen servants,
[89:31] And enter thou My Garden.

Unquote

Thanks

 

[inJESUS]

Malik Muwatta

Book 46, Number 46.1.1:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu’z-Zinad from al-Araj from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Adam and Musa argued and Adam got the better of Musa. Musa rebuked Adam, 'You are Adam who led people astray and brought them out of the Garden.’ Adam said to him, ‘You are Musa to whom Allah gave knowledge of everything and whom he chose above people with His message.’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Do you then censure me for a matter which was decreed for me before I was created?’ "

"And I free not myself (from the blame). Verily, the (human) self is inclined to evil, except when my Lord bestows His Mercy… Sura Yussef aya 53

 

[Khalfan]

You hit the nail on the head, for when they were created, they were without knowledge that they were naked!

Do you say, they knew they were naked?

 

[Khalfan]

And God’s will is that we unite our sufferings with the sufferings of His Son. And also that we love one another as He has loved us.

1 Peter 2
19 For this is thankworthy, if for conscience towards God, a man endure sorrows, suffering wrongfully.

John 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

You are in the same place where I am. Our deeds are counted. No one can be guaranteed to be saved unless and until our deeds are going along with the will of God. We get the result of our deeds in the afterlife. Then only we will know whether we are saved or not. Now, don’t say again that we are saved, but our deeds are counted. It is like saying you passed the test, while you are still IN the test. That is self contradicting.

By the way, why do you refer KJV, that’s a protestent version of Bible, Isn’t it? Do you accept that version?

The Catholic Church teaches us not to read verses of Scripture in isolation nor out of context. In addition, the Church teaches tht there are prophetic and spiritual readings as well as literal meanings to the Word of God. This verse follows the famous passage, “Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel (God with us).”

The spiritual meaning of that verse is that Emmanuel, the Saviour of the World will be born of a virgin. This refers to Jesus and even the Quran admits that Jesus was born of a Virgin. If we continue reading prophetically, we understand that God is “shaving” (i.e. preparing) the world for salvation.

That is why Jesus Christ established the Church.

Matthew 28
19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Thanks. Hope you will not hang on to that/any Quranic verse with plain reading and self interpretation anymore, since you don’t do that with Bible verses.

Yes, you did. I believe I made the correct distinction between what you said and what I said.

Yes, you did.
I fail to see how that helps your point.

It is below.

Wrong. On the day they ate the fruit, Adam and Eve committed a mortal sin. They cut themselves off from God’s lifegiving grace and in so doing they introduced themselves and their descendants to the death of the soul. The condition known as Original Sin, which we can contrast to the condition of Original Justice in which they previously existed when God created them in His Image…

This condition of Original Justice, in which God was sustaining them was a gift of God to His children. But they refused His gift and preferred to recreate themselves in their own image. In order to return to this state of Original Justice, Adam and Eve must willingly unite themselves to God as they had willingly left Him. And they must persevere in this act of will to the end.

Did they repent for their sin? If they did, in what state they were then? Once they were forgiven as you said below, in what state they were then? If they were still seperated from God, with the fallen nature, what is the effect that forgiveness of God made in them?

We know that Adam and Eve were forgiven because they are counted among our Saints, even though this information is not in the Bible. If they weren’t forgiven, they wouldn’t be in heaven today.

If they were forgiven of their sin, that sin cannot have any effect in us. If it does, then they were not forgiven.

 

[inJESUS]

Malik Muwatta

Book 46, Number 46.1.1:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu’z-Zinad from al-Araj from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Adam and Musa argued and Adam got the better of Musa. Musa rebuked Adam, 'You are Adam who led people astray and brought them out of the Garden.’ Adam said to him, ‘You are Musa to whom Allah gave knowledge of everything and whom he chose above people with His message.’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Do you then censure me for a matter which was decreed for me before I was created?’ "

"And I free not myself (from the blame). Verily, the (human) self is inclined to evil, except when my Lord bestows His Mercy… Sura Yussef aya 53

add to the fact that Adam led people astray the following aya:

That they may bear their burdens entirely on the day of resurrection and also of the burdens of those whom they lead astray without knowledge; now surely evil is what they bear. S. 16:25

but here we read:

Every soul earns only to its own account; no soul laden bears the load of another. S. 6:164

whatever one is correct, Adam led people astray as per hadith, and people carry his burden.

Abdullah Yusuf Ali said in reference to Q. 2:36:

… Note the transition in Arabic from the singular number in ii. 33, to the dual in ii. 35, and the plural here [2:36], which I have indicated in English by “All ye people.” Evidently Adam is the type of all mankind, and the sexes go together in all spiritual matters. Moreover, the expulsion applied to Adam, Eve, and Satan, and the Arabic plural is appropriate for any number greater than two

 

[Montalban]

Do you say, they knew they were naked?

AFTER they sinned, yes

 

[Booklover]

Do you say, they knew they were naked?

NO, they didn’t know they were naked until after they sinned!

Vickie

 

[Khalfan]

Sin is the disobedience of God. He got it by misusing the Good and Free Will which God gave him.

I am asking, where he got the ability to misuse good and free will?

No. There is no sin in God.

God doesn’t sin. That doesn’t mean, God doesn’t have the ability to sin. The ABILITY/POTENTIAL is there in God too. God too have his free will to choose. God choose to be good, since God is good.

Free will, by definition, gives one the potential to sin.

There you are. Free will, by defenition, GIVES ONE THE POTENTIAL TO CHOOSE between righteous and SIN, good and BAD. We have to ability to sin as much as we have ability to do good. And we, including Adam and Eve (pbut), got this potential to SIN and to do good from none other than God, as part of FREE WILL.

However, God did not create Adam and Eve in order to sin, but in order to share His love with them and to receive their love in return.

This is where Islam and Christianity are different. We believe in the omnipotency of God. Even if God created us for a certain purpose, God cannot be surprised by any of our acts against God, since he is omnipotent and can see the future (time is an earthly concept which doesn’t affect God). It is he who created us and gave us the free will. It is he who knows the hight of our righteousness and deepness of our wickedness more than anyone, from our pre-existence itself. But you don’t believe in his omnipotence, so do your Bible as it is mentioned,

Genesis 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”

God was not supposed to be sorry, if he wasn’t loved by us, since he knows our future.

Adam and Eve were innocent at birth and we are innocent at birth. But that is where the similarity ends. We are born in a fallen human nature which is more prone to sin than Adam and Eve.

Whether we are more prone or less prone is out of subject. Were they prone to sin (more or less), are we prone to sin (more or less) is the discussion, and I say all we are including Adam and Eve (pbut). Were they innocent at birth, are we innocent at birth, was the discussion about and you agreed all of us are. The potential to sin and to do good is/was same all the time.

It is in fact, somewhat of a natural law. Although God does not punish the children for their parents sins, children do suffer for their parents sins. Parents who squander their fortune, pass on poverty to their children. Parents with AIDS, pass on the disease to their children. Alcoholic parents raise alcoholic children. This is not God’s doing. This is the sinner’s doing.

Are we talking about physical transgression of some virus or something? or the spiritual transgression of sin nature? It is not only the sin that will effect the children, even the nighbors and others too, but also our good deeds do effect in them. That is an earthly situation, physical cause and effect. But in spiritual level, our children are not responsible and punishable for our sins. They won’t be rewarded for our good deeds too. What we do is out of our free will and what they do is out of their free will.

Cont…

 

[Khalfan]

Cont…

I have no idea what that means.

Neither do I have any idea what that means nor what it has to do with the doctrine of Original Sin.

I was talking about the reason for our creation.

It seems that Allah leads people astray. Therefore, Islam does not teach a strict free will. In fact, this is another point of contradiction within the Quran. Some texts teach free will some teach that Allah chooses who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.

You quoted this verse from Quran.

35:8 Is he, the evil of whose deeds is made fairseeming unto him so that he deemeth it good, (other than Satan’s dupe)? Allah verily sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will; so let not thy soul expire in sighings for them. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do!

First God talking about the deeds of evil doers. Then talking about the guidence that God gives. We never gets that unless we seek that, which God says, he is aware of. If we keep on sinning, God will not appear infront of us in a fine morning and give us the guidence, but he will let us do that as much as we want. He will lead us where we want to reach. God will surly lead them to astray who want to be so and God will surely guide them who seek it, becasue God is very much aware of what we think and what we do. That is why our freewill mentioned more clearly in many other places.

Do not go after plain reading and misinterpretation quoted in any anti-Islamic sites. Atleast try to have your own interpretation on it with a careful reading.

Did I say that our deeds could negate God or His Holiness?

I am not commenting on God or His Holiness but on what I perceive to be errors in Islamic Teaching. In my opinion, this text in the Quran demeans God and His Holiness because it follows through on your statement that Allah made man to sin. Apparently Allah created some men for destruction.

The Catholic Church teaches that God made man out of love.

We have already seen that it is not. God didn’t create man to sin, but as one of his practice. he made us out of love too, I don’t disagree that, but I want you to know, that the free will that he gave us out of love, contains the ability to choose righteousness as well as wickedness.

Hope you can understand, Thanks.

 

[Khalfan]

Islam does not permit intercessors.

Where you got this one now? Islam do allow and I do pray for all my known friends and relatives, all the muslims all over the world. But God has the right to accept and reject. I don’t pray for non-believers since I know the verse in the previous post. God will not guide anyone unless they seek it.

 

[Khalfan]

Do you mean aside from the *swim-suit *component? I think it was popular vote, a 1-800 number phone in

 

[Khalfan]

AFTER they sinned, yes

They had to know their nakedness someway at sometime. This is the way they knew it.

 

[Khalfan]

Yes, I do. Adam and Eve were created in Original Justice and Holiness but we are born into the state of separation from God called Original Sin. In order to restore ourselves to God’s Grace we must enter His family by the Sacrament of Baptism.

The potential comes with free will.

You see, you assume, you are seperated from God, and go for baptism. you don’t know why and how you are seperated, but you still do baptise. If they had the potential to sin they got with the free will from God, why do you say they introduced sin, when it is just a result of the potential THEY HAD IN THEM as part of free will that God given? They had many other potentials too like seeing, hearing, talking, smellig, eating, sleeping, loving and many many other things which we all do. Every act we do has its own effect. Some goes against the physical situation here on earth and some goes against the will of God, which is SIN. The physical effects here on earth can be balanced with opposite actions. SIN against God is in Spiritual level. Nothing on earth can balance that, neither baptism nor sacrifice, but if God himself forgives us what we did against him, which God offered us through true repentence.

Now, if we do anything against someone or something here on earth, we should balance it with the opposite actions. Like, if we steal something of a person, we should return it and ask his forgivness, because we hurted him physically and mentally. So the opposite action can only be fulfilled by his physical and mental satisfaction. Sometimes we can’t repalce the loss we made to someone (like murder), but we can still ask the forgiveness of his relatives. If they do forgive, the opposite action here on earth is been fulfilled but the physical loss will exist. That loss will go along with us to the court of God where God will judge us wheather to die in hell or to get forgiven according to our charity, righeous deeds and repentence after the sin.

For the sins that we do against God (including the unreplacable losses we did here on earth), we need forgiveness of God. What God demands us for the forgiveness is our true, honest repentence and the word to fulfill his law untill death. (Read Ezekiel 18. In Quran, there are lots of references to the same) Here comes the question of sacrifice. Sacrifice is a physical action that can balance only the physical sufferings of someone or something. In a spiritual level, we can’t offer blood or something to God, and doesn’t demand it. We do it for people that we sinned because, they suffered because of us. But, none our deeds or sin can make God suffer or can negate the Holyness of God. Since the sin against God is spiritual, god too demands us the spiritual sacrifice -Repentence; not blood or baptism.

It seems you want to negate God’s Holiness. But God giving Adam and Eve free will and thus permitting them the potential to sin is an act of pure love and holiness. This is, in fact, why religion is not coerced. In order for Adam and Eve to love God freely, Adam and Eve had to have the right to say no to God.

Exactly, you are right. That is the ability exists in us too with the free will, not the assumed fallen nature/original sin. They were their own with their deeds and we are our own with our deeds.

Cont…

 

[Khalfan]

Cont…

This is exactly what you said, in message #14 page 1, I will highlight in bold the key words.

SIN is a potential in human nature. It results from our free will and choice. God created Adam with the potential to sin. If God doesn’t wanted sin ever to happen, ever to exist, why he made man to be able to sin? Becasue he wanted us to sin…

If you want to clarify what you meant, please do so.

I didn’t say God created us ONLY to SIN. But, he created us with the ability to sin also which I am trying to imply in every posts. May be I failed to express that perfectly, but here is what I said. Read it carefully.

God created Adam with the potential to sin. If God doesn’t wanted sin ever to happen, ever to exist, why he made man to be able to sin? Becasue he wanted us to sin. He wanted to know, how many of us repent from our sin and follow his guidence.

God created Adam with the potential to sin.

This is how God created us, with the potential to love and sin as you have already agreed.

If God doesn’t wanted sin ever to happen, ever to exist, why he made man to be able to sin?

This is the question I made, in order to make you understand that why we do sin. You were saying, God created us just out of Love and we to love him. And I wanted to know, if that was the case why he did give us the potential to sin. And you have already agreed above that, In order for Adam and Eve to love God freely, Adam and Eve had to have the right to say no to God. Which I said below as, As God wanted us to love him, he also wanted us to sin out of our free will, if and when we choose to do so.

Becasue he wanted us to sin. He wanted to know, how many of us repent from our sin and follow his guidence.

God wanted to know, how many of us do love him out of free will and how many of us do sin out of free will.

I think you still have the problem with plain reading.

This is the answer for that.

By making reparation in his name:

Job 1
5 And when the days of their feasting were gone about, Job sent to them, and sanctified them: and rising up early offered holocausts for every one of them. For he said: Lest perhaps my sons have sinned, and have blessed God in their hearts. So did Job all days.

2 Machabees 12

46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

I don’t know what it has to do with the Original Sin. We all do pray for others. It is not our responsibility but righeousness.

This is the same clarification as above.

I read enough to prove you wrong.

Again, this is the same clarification as above. If Allah created man so that they would sin, then Allah created man imperfectly intentionally. Therefore Allah introduced imperfection into man’s nature.

In contrast, God created man perfectly so that they would remain perfect if they so willed. Man introduced imperfection into his own nature.

No. You keep on fail to understand. IN THAT PERFECTION THAT SAID JUST ABOVE, GOD ALSO GAVE US THE ABILITY TO SIN. If that ability is imperfection, then you are contradicting yourself. It is not imperfection but the perfection of free will.

Cont…

 

[Khalfan]

Cont…

Jesus took this burden on Himself because He loves us. How many parents pick up their children when their children can no longer walk? How many pick up their children’s burdens when their children can no longer carry them? Why do they do it?

Out of love. This s the lesson that is lost in Islam.

It is the most logical and practical of all thoughts. Love makes the world go round. The basic unit of society is the family. That is why God made His Church in the structure of a family. We are the family of God:

**854 **By her very mission, “the Church . . . travels the same journey as all humanity and shares the same earthly lot with the world: she is to be a leaven and, as it were, the soul of human society in its renewal by Christ and transformation into the family of God.” Missionary endeavor requires patience. It begins with the proclamation of the Gospel to peoples and groups who do not yet believe in Christ, continues with the establishment of Christian communities that are “a sign of God’s presence in the world,” and leads to the foundation of local churches. It must involve a process of inculturation if the Gospel is to take flesh in each people’s culture. There will be times of defeat. “With regard to individuals, groups, and peoples it is only by degrees that [the Church] touches and penetrates them and so receives them into a fullness which is Catholic.”
scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#854

See, this is where you wanted to sum-up the effect of original Sin. The cross event. Did Jesus (pbuh) do it willingly even if he was dead on the cross? He was praying to be saved from the cross. That is not the issue here. Here the issue is three points.

1. Can anyone take the burden/punishment/payment/atonement for the sin of others?

According to Ezekiel 18, it cannot and what God demands us to get forgiven is our repentence, not blood of anyone.

1. Did anyone ever know about the original Sin concept till development of christianity?

None of the jews ever known about such thing.

1. What is Original Sin then?

It is a later developed answer to the question, Did ‘Jesus’ die for the sin of the world? Did he die for all our sins? So they developed it as,

God created man perfectly so that they would remain perfect if they so willed. Man introduced imperfection into his own nature. Jesus took this burden on Himself because He loves us.

Adam’s sin seperated all of us from God. Cross event gave us the oppotunity to get back to God.

But to believe in that, 1) The sacrifice of an unwilling person could pay for your sins. 2) You have to reject what God himself taught in Ezekiel 18. 3) You have to compromise with illogical statements as ‘You are saved’ but still ‘your deeds are counted’ which in effect says you are not saved till death. If you were unable to fulfill the will of God, you will have to pay for it yourself (God wants payment for your sins, but second time).

 

[Khalfan]

No. Love can’t be coerced. If one does not have free will one can’t truly love.

That is exactly the point.

Ditto.

Exactly, you deny the idea of a fallen nature. Therefore you have no explanation of the existence of suffering, disease and death in humanity.

You see, according to Catholic Teaching, Adam and Eve were immune to these things before the Fall.

Are we dying because of the fallen nature?

Not as Adam and Eve. Our sins come more naturally to us because we have a weakened will and a weakened nature.

How do you measure our weakness and their strength? How did you come to such a conclusion? Sin is Sin even in a strong nature or weak. Righteousness too is the same. Wheather we do it or Adam (pbuh) doesn’t make any difference.

The right to choose between right and wrong.

You do agree, they had the potential to sin since beginning, but refute my statements which imply the same concept.

Sorry, but the plain text disagrees with you and so does the explanation offered by that website.

If, in another text, the Quran contradicts itself, that is another story.

I have already said, plain text reading can give you wrong ideas. I don’t believe God will shave someones leg with a HIRED razer. Becasue I know, the writer must have meant something else. I expect the same logic from you too.

The quick answer is, “yes.”

I can understand. That is why God was surprisd of the wickedness of Man. Why God created earth?

But again, there are many layers of understanding to the Scriptures. In Catholic Teaching, the Garden is not necessarily a physical garden. If we understand the Liturgical language of Genesis 2, we see that the Garden represents “union with God”. And yes, the man was made to always be united with God.

Any further assumptions?

And yet the earth is not comfortable for man. The deserts are too hot and dry, the poles too cold. Therefore, Catholic Theology explains the experience of man better than Islam.

According to you, earth is not the place for you. Whatever you will see around you, will be uncomfortable. But for me, I know earth is the only known place where I can survive in the universe.

 

[Khalfan]

This is a great example that Muslims do not understand the teachings of Christ.

Christ died that we might live. And we live by believing in Him, by accepting His sacrifice in our behalf, uniting ourselves to His sacrifice and thus imitating Him.

Galatians 2
20 And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself for me.

Hold on… You live by,

1. Believe in him. -I can agree that.
2. Accepting his sacrifice in your behalf. -What that sacrifice was for? If you were doing the sacrifice, for what you might have giving it for?

This is very simply a foolish Quranic contradiction. If Mohammed does not believe that one man may affect the salvation of another, why did he take upon himself the task of warner? Why did he preach that Muslims should fight and protect each other? Why preach that men must pay alms for the poor, isn’t that one of your pillars?

Here comes the importance of that misquoted verse.

35:8 Is he, the evil of whose deeds is made fairseeming unto him so that he deemeth it good, (other than Satan’s dupe)? Allah verily sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will; so let not thy soul expire in sighings for them. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do!

God asking Prophet (pbuh) not to worry about the people if they accept him or not, but just to keep on preaching the message. He were worrying about people becasue he loved them. But it wasn’t his responsibility to make sure their salvation. That comes only if they seek and God gives them guidence as he will, because he is very well aware of their thoughts even.

All other deeds mentioned above are part of charity and righteousness. Paying poor is not for the salvation of the poor, but counted as a compulsory charity from us. It is compulsory on each and every Muslim to perform personnally. No one can sacrifice or suffer for me untill I am alive. Their sacrifice won’t be accepted. If I die without fulfilling any of those 5 pillar acts, my descendents can perform it for me but still it is subject to acceptence, since it was supposed to be fulfilled by myself.

Cont…

 

[Khalfan]

Cont…

In contrast, the Catholic Church recognizes that just as we can help people physically, we can help them spiritually. That is a simple truth which is denied by Islam and embraced by the Catholic Church.

Do not argue on subjects where we don’t have differences. personal help, physical sacrifices etc. are known Islam as well, infact in a very broad manner. The difference we two have is with the sacrifice that one can do for the sin of other. This is what Islam differ with and you have embraced, which is unlawful according to your own scriptures.

Lets look at it the other way around. Lets say that your son breaks your neighbors window. He comes to you and says, “Father forgive me, I wrecked your neighbor’s window and I know this could cause problems with our families…”

You say, “sure son, I forgive you, but have you asked our neighbor to forgive you.”

“I have Father but he says if I am sincere, I must pay for the window.”

And you say, “Find out how much he wants for the window, I will pay for it.”

Good. you didn’t give any comment n my illustration and made your own illustration. So I consider, my logic is true that you are not supposed to ask me penalty for my mistake, and then say ‘you are forgiven’, since you have got paid your price for your loss and you didn’t practice any forgiveness in effect.

Now, let’s see if the logic works with your illustration. To know that you have to tell me who you are, the child or the nighbour? Father is supposed to be God/‘Jesus’ who paid for your sins. So child and nighbour left in the illustrasion.

If you are the child, you are the sinner and the nighbour is Father/God.

You have to know tha price of your sins from nighbour who is supposed to be God, so that your father, who is also God, may able to pay the price of your sins. God paying God himself for your sins. That’s illogical.

If you are the nighbour, you are Father/God and the child is the sinner.

You are supposed to forgive the mistake of a child. Since you demanded the price for his mistake, you are not practiced any forgiveness. You have got paid for your loss. To call your act as forgiveness is not illogical but foolishness.

Hope that helps you to understand your own illustration. If you can explain it better, go ahead.

God does forgive those who repent with sincerity of heart. If we truly repent, we won’t shirk our duty to pay for what we have done wrong. One of your compatriots provided the following list required of repentance in Islam (See message #4 page 1). See the highlighted item, #4 below:

• 1. Leaving the sin;

1. Remorse over having committed the sin;
2. Resolve never to return to the sin;
   ** 4. (If it relates to the rights of another person, then to) Return the rights or property one wrongly took.*** [al-Bariqa fi Sharh al-Tariqa; Riyad al-Salihin]

Therefore, according to him, Islam also requires reparation for sin before it is forgiven.

Read what is in the bracket once again. We have to do it personnaly because, our act effected him to loose something. So you need a physical reparation with repentence. But in the case of God, none of our act can make God loose something, none of our act can negate something from the holyness of God. That is why God never demanded any physical reparations for our sin to be forgiven but true repentence and word to fulfill his will, rest of our life.