Islam and Original Sin

[Khalfan]

Yes.

John 10
17 Therefore doth the Father love me: because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. 18 No man taketh it away from me: but I lay it down of myself, and I have power to lay it down: and I have power to take it up again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

We don’t find this powerful Jesus (pbuh) in other gospels, rather a fearful Jesus (pbuh) who never wanted to be crucified, who prayed to be saved.

No, he wasn’t. He was revealing who He was. Did you not know that the words, " My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me" are the words of Psalm 21 which prophesy the passion of the Suffering Servant, the Messiah?

Psalms 21
2 O God my God, look upon me: why hast thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation are the words of my sins.

The issue is that you know little of Christian doctrine and what you think you know is in error.

John didn’t know about that prophecy, so he didn’t quoted that. neither he heard ‘Jesus’ said anything like that. But he heard, ‘it is finished’, which other ‘witnesses’ didn’t.

Ezekiel 18 does not address this issue. Ezekiel says that God will not punish a son for a father’s sins nor a father for a son’s sins. It does not say that one may not take another’s burdens willingly. The issue is not addressed. But it is addressed in many other parts of the Bible.

Matthew 22
39 And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

In fact, life should teach you that we are born to take each other’s burdens. Our parents take our burdens until we are old enough to take them on ourselves. We take our children’s burdens until they are old enough. It is the way of the world. It is called love.

We are talking about the burden of sin. Do anyone take it for other? Doanyone can take the wickedness for the other? Eze 18 says, NO.

Did anyone ever know about eternal Quran until the advent of Islam?

Not the ‘Quran’, but the message of one God. You can see it in the Bible itself.

 

[inJESUS]

And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy (khaleefatan) in the earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not. And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful. They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise. He said: O Adam! Inform them of their names, and when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not tell you that I know the secret of the heavens and the earth? And I know that which ye disclose and which ye hide.

1-how did the angels know what the condition of man would be before his creation? Where did they get the idea that man would be violent? Who told them? The text doesn’t say anything about Allah giving them this information. Are angels omniscient?

2-Allah secretly teaches Adam some names in order to silence the angels for complaining against man. Was it not unfair for Allah to teach Adam these names and then to challenge the angels to do the same? Is it not obvious that Adam would have been just as ignorant as the angels were regarding these things had it not been for Allah teaching him? What kind of vindication is this seeing that Adam only knew of these names because Allah taught him, whereas the angels were ignorant because Allah hadn’t taught them these things?

3-They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise.

Angels did not question Allah’s knowledge. So why was he proving to angels that he is all-knowing?

4- Did angels prostrate only to Adam or to Eve as well. And why?

 

[Khalfan]

Jesus was more than willing. It is why He came into the world:

Matthew 16
21 From that time Jesus began to shew to his disciples, that he must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the ancients and scribes and chief priests, and be put to death, and the third day rise again. 22 And Peter taking him, began to rebuke him, saying: Lord, be it far from thee, this shall not be unto thee. 23 Who turning, said to Peter: Go behind me, Satan, thou art a scandal unto me: because thou savourest not the things that are of God, but the things that are of men. 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For he that will save his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for my sake, shall find it.

Jesus (pbuh) wouldn’t pray to be saved then.

Obviously, you don’t understand what God taught in Ezekiel 18. That is why you twist it and make it contradict what God taught everywhere else in the Bible:

Exodus 23

5 If thou see the *** of him that hateth thee lie underneath his burden, thou shalt not pass by, but shalt lift him up with him.

Numbers 11

17 That I may come down and speak with thee: and I will take of thy spirit, and will give to them, that they may bear with thee the burden of the people, and thou mayest not be burthened alone.

Romans 12

1 I BESEECH you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing unto God, your reasonable service.

Hebrews 9

26 For then he ought to have suffered often from the beginning of the world: but now once at the end of ages, he hath appeared for the destruction of sin, by the sacrifice of himself.

So you are saying, Bible teaches someone can take the inquity of the other? That’s a contradiction.

Not so. There is no compromise. Nor are the statements illogical. Sometimes an idea is completely developed here, sometimes only partially developed there. However, if you read the entire Scriptures, you will see the entire idea. Apparently, your Quran must be written so that every idea is completely developed in each sentence. No wonder it can’t be understood.

Can Bible/your faith be understood without the spirit?

We don’t have any problem in understanding Quran. We seek to be guided by God, and so we are. You won’t understand it, until you want to understand it.

Here is how we understand the Bible:
111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. “Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written.” The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.

Obviously, then, you will never understand Scripture since you read it in the light of the Quran and Mohammed.

Sincerely,

De Maria

See… even you agreed, Bible cannot be understood without spirit. We don’t have to wait for the spirit to understand Quran.

 

[inJESUS]

Jesus (pbuh) wouldn’t pray to be saved then.

why do you repeat a claim without answering the response?

We don’t have any problem in understanding Quran. We seek to be guided by God, and so we are.

 

[Khalfan]

Yes. We were meant for eternal life.

For one thing, Adam lived a very long time:

Genesis 5
5 And all the time that Adam lived came to nine hundred and thirty years, and he died.

But Adam (pbuh) was supposed to die on the same day he ate the fruit, right? how he lived even further?

Again, you show both the weakness of Islamic doctrine and the your lack of knowledge of Christian doctrine:

**1859 **Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

**1854 **Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture, became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.

1. I agree they had the potential to sin.
2. But the potential to sin is not actual sin. That is what I refute.

What is actual sin?

Again, I am sorry to say it, but Muslims contradict each other and themselves. I quoted an Islamic website and their explanation of the Quran. Why is your explanation better than theirs?

No. They too agree with what I said. But you don’t want to agree that for certain reasons.

Correct. We live on the earth, but we are not part of this earth. God created us for Himself.

Where do you live? Do you have air conditioning in the summer and heating in the winter? Can you walk into any forest and eat of any tree? If you say so, I won’t believe you. Man is born to struggle on this earth. Perhaps you can explain the concept of struggle.

As for me, I look forward to the time when I will be united to God and see Him face to face. For to us, God is our very life.

1 Corinthians 13
12 We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know I part; but then I shall know even as I am known.

2 Corinthians 5

8 But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Sincerely,

De Maria

This is the greatest mistake of Christianity my dear. What it has to give you is the lesson of sorrowful life here on earth and a hope of godly life hereafter, which is not worthy even to live one day peacefully in this life here. That is why it teaches not to marry even, becasue the kingdom of god is near. BE HAPPY HERE AND NOW MY DEAR FRIEND. Ask a Psychiatrist, he will tell you, how to be hopeful and happy in this life HERE. Islam promotes a peaceful life here on earth and then the heaven for those who fulfilled the laws of God.

 

[De_Maria]

God didn’t create evil. Evil is the doings against God’s law and Satan did it first. Hell is for the evil doers.

Allah didn’t wanted man to sin. That is your interpretation. It is about free will and choice. Since God is omnipotent he knows man will do mistake, man will commit sin. So, he offers us his forgiveness in advance but on the condition of repentence.

God does not want us to sin, but he knows, we will sin.

You are getting closer to Catholicism. Now teach yoiur brethren, because they will disagree with you. I daresay you’ll be labelled a heretic.

 

[inJESUS]

This is the greatest mistake of Christianity my dear. What it has to give you is the lesson of sorrowful life here on earth and a hope of godly life hereafter, which is not worthy even to live one day peacefully in this life here.

The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; **I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly. **

PETER 1:8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you **greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, **

Jesus of course does not make us happy by allowing us to have 4 wives and war sex slaves, nor through temporary marriages, nor through houri in paradise. But Jesus gives us the peace that the world cannot give. THIS, my friend, is the ultimate happiness.

 

[Khalfan]

nothing WE do on earth, nothing WE humans do.

Here it is NOT us, it is God. We did not get sanctified because we did not eat x or z. We did not get sanctified because we washed ourselves before prayer. We did not get sanctified because we turn round the kaaba. NOTHING of these can sanctify us. Only God does and He did. That is why we do NOT focus on these things to be sanctified, we accept God’s sanctification out of His love, not our merit.

If any action is commanded by God, then it can fulfill the will of God to get forgiven. God asked our repentence, not blood.

living through Jesus means He is our mediator. We do everything in His name. God nowhere said we must live through Moses or Isaiah or Zechariah. These people pointed to God, not to themselves.

Bible says, Jesus (pbuh) said he is the way and truth. We too say, he was the way, but the destination was God. He too pointed to God only.

Narrated Abu Huraira:

I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “**The good deeds of any person will not make him enter Paradise.” (i.e., None can enter Paradise through his good deeds.) They (the Prophet’s companions) said, ‘Not even you, O Allah’s Apostle?’ He said, “Not even myself, unless Allah bestows His favor and mercy **on me. So be moderate in your religious deeds and do the deeds that are within your ability: and none of you should wish for death, for if he is a good doer, he may increase his good deeds, and if he is an evil doer, he may repent to Allah.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 70, Number 577)

Before good deeds dear Muslim, comes God’s mercy as shown by Jesus, here on earth, to all people.

You lost the whole point my friend. This hadees is refuting Christianity. It says, no one in this earth can be confirmed of being SAVED. Each and every one has to do good deeds as much as possible. No one can be sure about acceptence of his deeds. It is God’s right to accept and reject. No one can enter paradise just becasue he did good deeds but only if God accepted. (Thank God that you quote hadeeses that always turns to yourself)

 

[Khalfan]

Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins:

John 20
23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

They passed this power on to other men:

2 Timothy 2

2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.

God has revealed it through His Son:

Hebrews 1
1 God, who, at sundry times and in divers manners, spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, last of all, 2 In these days hath spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world. 1 God, who, at sundry times and in divers manners, spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, last of all, 2 In these days hath spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world.

You also have confession of sins? To whom do you confess your sins?

These are simply the ramblings of your own mind and another indication that you don’t understand Catholic Teaching. Although God has given men the power to forgive sins, they don’t forgive sins in their own name but in God’s name.

It is like a King who sends his messenger to convey an important message. He who receives the message is more thankful to whom, to the King or to the messenger?

Therefore, when we receive the message from the Priest that God has forgiven us, we are more thankful to God. But we are also thankful to the Priest.
CONT’D

What if the priest was wrong?

I confess to God.

 

[De_Maria]

We don’t find this powerful Jesus (pbuh) in other gospels, rather a fearful Jesus (pbuh) who never wanted to be crucified, who prayed to be saved.

Matthew 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Matthew 12:39-41

39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Mark 8:31
And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

John 2:19
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Where does Jesus speak fearfully of His passion?

John didn’t know about that prophecy,

John was a Jew. As such, he knew the Old Testament Scriptures backward and forward.

so he didn’t quoted that. neither he heard ‘Jesus’ said anything like that. But he heard, ‘it is finished’, which other ‘witnesses’ didn’t.

John ommitted from His narrative many details which were already revealed in the other three Gospels. That doesn’t mean he didn’t hear them or witness them.

And John mentioned in His narrative many details which other witnesses didn’t. That doesn’t mean that they didn’t hear it. That just means they didn’t mention it.

We are talking about the burden of sin.

Precisely. And as I have said before, this world is a shadow of the spiritual world. Just as we can help each other with material burdens, we can help each other with spiritual burdens. That is why we pray for each other. Or why do you pray for others?

Do anyone take it for other?

If we love enough, yes. Many afflicted souls have offered their suffering for the sins of the world, that God may convert the sinners, because in truth, they know not what they do. They are blind guides leading the blind and they will both fall in a pit, but they say that they can see, so who can help them?

Doanyone can take the wickedness for the other? Eze 18 says, NO.

Ezekial doesn’t even mention this topic.

Not the ‘Quran’, but the message of one God. You can see it in the Bible itself.

Thanks for acknowledging that the Bible is the message of God. However, neither the Quran, nor Mohammed nor Islam are mentioned therein.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[inJESUS]

If any action is commanded by God, then it can fulfill the will of God to get forgiven. God asked our repentence, not blood.

not related to what i wrote. Only God can change your nature, and He did. The how is His business.

Bible says, Jesus (pbuh) said he is the way and truth. We too say, he was the way, but the destination was God. He too pointed to God only.

 

[Khalfan]

CONT’D

to be precise, in post 16 I said:
Since you don’t understand the relationship of sacrifice and suffering for love’s sake, you think that this contradicts the statement “saved through Jesus”. However, because of their love and their suffering and sacrifice, even to death which women willingly take for their children, they remake themselves in the image of Christ. That is what it means to be saved through Christ:

Galatians 2
20 And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself for me.

Sincerely,

De Maria

‘Jesus’ got crucified only once. Why women have to suffer in each child birth? I think she have to suffer/sacrifice for the child for the first time. Then she is saved according to you. Why a saved women have to suffer again and again?

 

[De_Maria]

Jesus (pbuh) wouldn’t pray to be saved then.

Jesus died that we would be saved. That is why He came into this world.

So you are saying, Bible teaches someone can take the inquity of the other? That’s a contradiction.

You seem to be accusing me of saying that one can become evil for another? That is wrong. But we may suffer one for another.

One of our great Saints, St. Maximillian Kolbe, died in the gas chamber. He took another man’s place. All our martyred Saints have died so that men may be converted to the faith in Jesus Christ and many Saints have died to protect innocent life.

James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1 Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

Can Bible/your faith be understood without the spirit?

No.

We don’t have any problem in understanding Quran. We seek to be guided by God, and so we are. You won’t understand it, until you want to understand it.

Exactly. Until you seek to understand the Scriptures in the Spirit in which they were inspired, you will fail. Therefore, reading the Scriptures in the Spirit of Mohammed or of the Quran will end in failure.

See… even you agreed, Bible cannot be understood without spirit. We don’t have to wait for the spirit to understand Quran.

You are under the false impression that simplicity is truth. That is another false Islamic teaching.

Truth is absolute. Simplicity is not.

There are many thing simiple to me but difficult to other people. There are things difficult for me but simple to other people.

Truth is different. Truth is true whether you believe it or not. Truth is true whether you understand it or not.

Simple lies are very convincing. Mohammed’s simple lies have been perpetuated in the Quran for many centuries.

So, if you are trying to say that the Quran is true because its simple, that is a false argument.

In addition, it is false to say that the Quran is simple. It is the only document which a group of men say is so complicated it can’t adequately be translated to any other language. Therefore, the Quran is neither true because it is simple nor simple at all.

Your premise fails on both points

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[inJESUS]

"It Shall Come To Pass In That Day That His Burden Will Be Taken Away From Your Shoulder, And His Yoke From Your Neck! And The Yoke Will Be Destroyed Because Of The Anointing! Isaiah 10:27

Moses delivered himself to death for the people (Ber. l.c.).[26] For love of the Israelites he went so far as to count himself among the sinners (compare Isa. liii. 12), saying to God: “This calf might be an assistant God and help in ruling the world.”[26] . Moses said: “Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people” (Exodus 32:11; Numbers Rabba ii. 14; Deut. R. i. 2).[26] Moses atoned for the sin of making the calf; he even atoned for all the sins of humanity down to his time, freeing men from their burden of sin (Yalk., Ki Tissa, 388, from the Tanna debe Eliyahu [26] Moses loved the people (Men. 65a, b), showing his affection on every occasion.[26]

this is why God said He will raise someone from the Israelites like Moses. And this is why, unlike what yu want to believe, Muhammad has nothing to do with this prophecy that was fulfillled by Lord Jesus.

 

[Khalfan]

All 66 books were canonized by the Catholic Church. Luther removed 7 books because they contained material with which he disagreed.
Of course.

I don’t go by that criteria. I use the KJV when I discuss religion with Protestants because that is what they mainly accept. Otherwise, I use the Douay because it is my favorite.

Do you know that, it was not 73 books in the first compiled Bible, and apocrepha was not 7, in that Bible?

If anyone misquoted it, it was the Muslim whom I quoted. As I said before, I only pass on what I’ve learned from Muslims about the Quran. Its not my fault that Muslims constantly contradict each other.

I can see it with Bible teachings as well.

Yes.

Fallen.

Yes.

They were prepared for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross whose graces poured out through the whole of eternity to cleanse the sins of all those who died in repentance and longing for God.

So you mean, Adam and Eve (pbut) were not forgiven at that time? But you said below, they were forgiven? If they were forgiven, their account was clear. They were in the state back. They never had to wait for any sacrifice for it.

They did the sacrifice/repentence that God ever demanded from us. You believe, it was God who sacrificed his life for us. Who demanded the sacrifice is also God. God is the Giver and the reciever. If you have to pay $100 to yourself, what you do?

1. We are talking about fallen nature, not about sin.
2. God can do anything.
3. But God has chosen to make us participate in our salvation.
4. Therefore, since Adam and Eve gave away the grace with which they were born, they couldn’t pass it on to their and their children must earn it if they want it.
5. That requries a persistent act of will…

Now your running away from your own analogy.

Are you talking about fallen nature or sin?

Adam and Eve were forgiven for their sin of disobedience. But they gave away their grace. If your father gives you $1000 to put in the bank and you go and gamble it away. Your father would be mad, but he might forgive you. But the money is still lost. Either you or your father will have to earn it back.

Therefore Adam and Eve’s sin was forgiven, but the grace with which they were born remained lost, their nature remained fallen.

But God himself was the one who has to give back the grace that they lost. Who sacrificed himself also is the same God. It is like I lost my $1000 in my own casino. And you are saying I have to do something to me to make me happy and to earn that $1000 back from my own cash counter. That is illogical my dear.

 

[De_Maria]

But Adam (pbuh) was supposed to die on the same day he ate the fruit, right? how he lived even further?

His body didn’t die. His soul died. Adam committed the first mortal sin. When we commit mortal sin, we live our physical lives without the influence of God in our souls. We reject God willfully.

What is actual sin?

The actual committing of an act in disobedience to God. It is a turning away from God.

No. They too agree with what I said. But you don’t want to agree that for certain reasons.

Both InJesus and I showed you that you’re fellow Muslims both today and historically disagreed with your explanation of the Quranic doctrine of Adam and the punishment of mankind for his sin.

This is the greatest mistake of Christianity my dear. What it has to give you is the lesson of sorrowful life here on earth and a hope of godly life hereafter, which is not worthy even to live one day peacefully in this life here. That is why it teaches not to marry even, becasue the kingdom of god is near. BE HAPPY HERE AND NOW MY DEAR FRIEND. Ask a Psychiatrist, he will tell you, how to be hopeful and happy in this life HERE. Islam promotes a peaceful life here on earth and then the heaven for those who fulfilled the laws of God.

If you only knew our Joy in Jesus Christ, you would discard the Quran in a heartbeat. It is too bad that men have to learn this lesson on their own and they won’t heed another’s advice.

As you said, you are like an atheist. Well, as an atheist, I was happy, dancing my way into hell. But as a Christian I am happier still, knowing the meaning of life, of love and of sacrifice for those I love and for those whom God loves.

You have no idea. But God has given you a hint. He has given you a family to love. The love that you have for your family is the hint of the love that God has for you. But God loves you much more. And the sacrifices that you will make for your family, God will take them into account for your soul. Charity begins at home.

If you would only understand that the love you have for your wife and her love for you is also a living metaphor of God’s love for His People their love for Him, you would understand why one man is to marry one woman.

**Ephesians 5:31-33
**

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

What if the priest was wrong?

In what way?

I confess to God.

As do we. But God has given us a sign of His power. He isn’t afraid to permit men to hear our sins and grant absolution in His name.

 

[De_Maria]

‘Jesus’ got crucified only once.

True. Once for all.

Why women have to suffer in each child birth?

In order to purify their souls. Suffering is expiatory.

I think she have to suffer/sacrifice for the child for the first time. Then she is saved according to you. Why a saved women have to suffer again and again?

Did she sin only once?

Also, she doesn’t just suffer for herself, but if she unites her suffering to that of Christ, she suffers for her husband, her children and for mankind. And in doing so, she becomes an heir of Christ and she thereby inherits the glory with Him because she has suffered with Him.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[inJESUS]

Also, she doesn’t just suffer for herself, but if she unites her suffering to that of Christ, she suffers for her husband, her children and for mankind. And in doing so, she becomes an heir of Christ and she thereby inherits the glory with Him because she has suffered with Him.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Khalfan]

We believe there are some things God can’t do. God can’t create another God equal or greater than Himself. God can’t contradict Himself because He can’t make mistakes. And God can’t do anything evil because He is all good.

It is about his nature, and we believe he is all powerful. That doesn’t mean he can create another eternal God. Because that is like drawing a circle with corners. It is not about able or unable, but its illogical.

To which sect of Islam do you belong?
INTRODUCTION
The abrogation of Quranic verses, arguably the greatest lie against the Quran, was originally invented during the fourth century A.H. (late 10th century A.D.) by some Muslim scholars notably Ahmed Bin Ishaq Al-Dinary (died 318 A.H.), Mohamad Bin Bahr Al-Asbahany (died 322 A.H.), Hebat Allah Bin Salamah (died 410 A.H.) and Mohamad Bin Mousa Al-Hazmy (died 548 A.H.), whose book about Al-Nasekh and Al-Mansoukh is regarded as one of the leading references in the subject.

submission.org/abrogation.html

Apparently some Muslims do and some don’t. Most of the Muslims with which I’ve spoken have mentioned abrogation of the privilege to consume alcohol. None, except you have ever denied it. I knew of the controversy from reading articles on the Internet however.

I am a Sunni. None of the Muslims anywhere in the world do believe there is satanic verses in the Quran.

I believe the Quran is a mixture of Mohammed’s lies and actual history which can’t be denied. But I don’t believe that any angel of God appeared to Mohammed. And I know that neither Mohammed nor any Muslim since can prove that any supernatural being, angel or otherwise, appeared to Mohammed.

Moses proved his mission was of God by the miracles which God performed through him and by the witnesses who also saw God, in the cloud and in the mountain and in the tent whenever God went to speak to Moses there.

We have a miracle infront of us. We believe, no one could make it other than God. It is the Holy Quran. If Quran is not true, we don’t have to believe in Mohamed (pbuh). It is Quran that gives me reason to believe in God and in Mohamed (pbuh).

God does not destroy man unjustly. God has given man a choice. life or death. If they choose death, then God’s judgement is just.

Deuteronomy 30
19 I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Choose therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

That only applies to those who willingly repent.

I don’t question God. If God decided they had to die, then God must have had good reason.

But if you are asking whether God had the right to take their life, then I tell you that our lives are not our own. We belong to God and God can call us to judgement whenever He wills:

Luke 12
16 And he spoke a similitude to them, saying: The land of a certain rich man brought forth plenty of fruits. 17 And he thought within himself, saying: What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? 18 And he said: This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and will build greater; and into them will I gather all things that are grown to me, and my goods. 19 And I will say to my soul: Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years take thy rest; eat, drink, make good cheer. 20 But God said to him: Thou fool, this night do they require thy soul of thee: and whose shall those things be which thou hast provided?

God gives and God takes away.

Because they didn’t repent.

Yes. The Cross event helped Adam and Eve, and all those of the line of Seth before and after Noah who repented of their sins. I don’t think anyone of the line of Cain ever repented of their sins so they were lost.

What if I say, God didn’t give enough time to repent? And I hope there was children even among those who dead in flood. Did they know about their sin and they were supposed to repent to be saved?

It gives no logic in believing, God really wanted all to be saved my dear. It is as you said, “God gives and God takes away”. He has the right to do so. Which proves again, ‘Jesus’ didn’t die for all. There were people who paid themselm for their sins. The reason was as you said, they rejected the choice that God given. If this is the case for some in your christian theology, we Muslims believe this is the case for all. We all are subject to the choice God given us. If we choose, we will be saved. If not, we will have to pay for it in hell.