Islam - Hadiths

[jakasaki]

Time to bring this thread back up to discuss another hadith topic.

Stoning to death:

According to the hadiths provided in the book of Bukhari, stoning to death practice was picked up from the Jews living in mohamads time and therefore, it became an islamic barbaric custom to this day.

But none of the hadiths claim the Jews stoned anyone to death.

This punishment of stoning to death is not written in the koran and since this is **not **a “revelation” revealed to mohamad & not written in the koran, why does islam still practice this…??

 

[Sam_777]

and since this is **not **a “revelation” revealed to mohamad & not written in the koran, why does islam still practice this…??

Indeed stoning punishment for stoning Shekh (male cleric) & Shekha (female cleric) was revealed to Muhammad per “Sahih Muslim” and “Sahih Bukhari”, but it is not found in today’s Quran!, maybe Uthman forgot and burned it.
(E) (A).
(E) (A).

 

[Jay53]

Indeed stoning punishment for stoning Shekh (male cleric) & Shekha (female cleric) was revealed to Muhammad per “Sahih Muslim” and “Sahih Bukhari”, but it is not found in today’s Quran!, maybe Uthman forgot and burned it.
(E) (A).
(E) (A).

Or maybe the goat ate it!

 

[sedonaman]

…
If someone comes into your house, beats you and your family, and tells you you can’t be Catholic anymore. You will fight back won’t you?
…

If someone comes into my house, beats me and my family, tells me it belongs to Allah and his prophet, and that I must submit to them, am I an aggressor if I fight back?

 

[jakasaki]

I started this thread a while back to discuss islamic hadiths.

**Narrated Abu-Huraira:
Gabriel used to repeat the recitation of the Qur’an with the Prophet once a year, but he repeated it twice with him in the year he died.

The Prophet used to stay in I’tikaf for ten days every year (in the month of ramadan)

Bukhari: (Book #61, Hadith #520)**

Now… stay with me on this one please…

Gabriel passes on the message to mohamad.

Mohamad memorizes the message and tells it to his reciters.

These reciters according to islam, memorize everything.

Mohamad keeps receiving passages from Gabriel

The process is repeated to the reciters.

These reciters now know from beginning to end the word of allah as it was sent by Gabriel to mohamad.

It’s also written that every Ramadan, Gabriel would visit mohamad and he would recite whatever was revealed to him.

But the last year of mohamad, Gabriel came twice, and repeated the whole koran to mohamad.

So, by now, mohamad knows the koran by heart the was it was revealed to him and the “reciters” also know the koran from beginning to end.

Mohamad dies.

If memory serves me correctly, why were there 7 ways to recite the koran, if Gabriel revealed it one way - which according to the koran, it should be identical to the “tables which allah has”.

Also, again, if memory serves me correctly, Abu Bakr had a final koran… Was this koran a “memorized” koran or was it a “book”.

Shia also claim that Ali had a koran as well… Was this Shia’s version of the koran a “memorized” koran or was it a “book”.

And my final question:

If all of these great reciters from memory knew the koran the way it was revealed to mohamad, why did Uthman have to gather up the sticks, bones, papyrus, animal skins to compile the koran the muslims have today.

Why didn’t he just go to all of the great memory reciters who know the koran from beginning to end and compile it from those folk. ???

Now, I also know some of these “great memory koran reciters” were killed during some battles, but I do remember there were a few still alive during Uthmans time.

I know… I know… I posted quite a few questions…

So hopefully, I’ll get answers because none of it make sense.

Thanks!

 

[Alcrusader]

I invite you jakasaki to read in this website, maybe you could find some answers
answering-islam.org/Quran/

 

[sedonaman]

…

And my final question:

If all of these great reciters from memory knew the koran the way it was revealed to mohamad, why did Uthman have to gather up the sticks, bones, papyrus, animal skins to compile the koran the muslims have today.

Why didn’t he just go to all of the great memory reciters who know the koran from beginning to end and compile it from those folk. ???
…

I thought they did this as well. Wasn’t one of them Aisha?

 

[elwill]

If memory serves me correctly, why were there 7 ways to recite the koran, if Gabriel revealed it one way - which according to the koran, it should be identical to the “tables which allah has”.

Narrated Umar bin Al-Khattab:
I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah’s Apostle and I listen to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah’s Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, “Who taught you this Surat which I heard you reciting ?” He replied, “Allah’s Apostle taught it to me”. I said, “You have told a lie, for Allah’s Apostle taught it to me in a different way from yours”. So I dragged him to Allah’s Apostle and said, “I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven’t taught me!”. On that Allah’s Apostle said, “Release him (Umar) recite, O Hisham!” Then he recited in the same way I heard him reciting. Then Allah’s Apostle said, “It was revealed in this way”, and added, “Recite, O Umar”, I recited it as he had taught me. Allah’s Apostle then said, “It was revealed in this way. This Qur’an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever is easier for you.”

There are no variances or missing parts in the Noble Quran.
The Arabic dialects had problems with each others, and that’s why standardizing the Noble Quran with its original Quraishi dialect was essential to keeping it as a perfect Holy Book: For instance, take the letter “j”. Did you know that some Arabs don’t pronounce the “j”? They always pronounce it as “g” or “ga”.

Take “the” as another example. Some Arabs also don’t pronounce “the”. They pronounce it as “za”.

The point is that there were 7 different dialects. The Noble Quran was originally recited with the “Quraishi” dialect, which is the dialect that our beloved Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him spoke.

Also, again, if memory serves me correctly, Abu Bakr had a final koran… Was this koran a “memorized” koran or was it a “book”.

my memory not serve me in that , but as long as you specified specific person so the context is about written book i think

And my final question:

If all of these great reciters from memory knew the koran the way it was revealed to mohamad, why did Uthman have to gather up the sticks, bones, papyrus, animal skins to compile the koran the muslims have today.

Why didn’t he just go to all of the great memory reciters who know the koran from beginning to end and compile it from those folk. ???

what is the problem from using all available options in his project !

NoteIf the Noble Quran is recited in a different dialect than the Quraishi one, and if one tries to write down what he is reciting, he could and would end up with different words in spelling and in some cases in meaning as well than the original copy of the Noble Quran.

When Uthman got hold of all of the Qurans that were written in different dialects, in some cases were altered to sound exactly like the other dialects, he ordered for them to get burnt because they did not use the proper Arabic that was revealed unto our beloved Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, and in some cases their words were different because of this dialect difference. He then compiled all of the Noble Surahs (Chapters) of the Noble Quran that were already written during the time of Prophet Muhammad in the city of Madina and formed what we call today the one true copy of the “Noble Quran”.

Now, I also know some of these “great memory koran reciters” were killed during some battles, but I do remember there were a few still alive during Uthmans time.

yes that’s right

 

[sedonaman]

…
When Uthman got hold of all of the Qurans that were written in different dialects, in some cases were altered to sound exactly like the other dialects, he ordered for them to get burnt because they did not use the proper Arabic that was revealed unto our beloved Prophet … and in some cases their words were different because of this dialect difference. …

This is an admission that it isn’t perfect, as Muslims claim.

 

[jakasaki]

I invite you jakasaki to read in this website, maybe you could find some answers
answering-islam.org/Quran/

Thanks - I know the site well and I have already read the link a while back.

 

[jakasaki]

Somehow, I knew I wasn’t going to get an answer.

Everything you posted Elwill, I already know.

The angel of God comes to mohamad and teaches him the word of God.

He tells him the very first verse…

~ Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Mohamad repeats this & memorizes it & passes it on to someone else… he too memorizes it word for word & he passes this on to others.

The angel of God comes to mohamad again & teaches him a new verse.

**

~Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure.

**

Mohamad now knows 2 verses - He repeats them, memorizes them & pass them on to the reciter… he too memorizes it word for word & he passes this on to others.

So far we have from the angel of God…

**

~Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure.

**

This continues and at the end of the first year, the angel returns to mohamad and mohamad recites to the angel

**

~Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure.

**

The angel is satisfied and then continues to transmit the word of God to mohamad, returning every year at Ramadan.

So by the end of mohamads 23 years, the angel repeats this process 2 times.

Mohamad recites the entire koran as he heard it, from begining to end.

Why wasn’t it written down as it was delivered is my question.

**

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate – we can not consecrate – we can not hallow – this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us – that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion – that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain – that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom – and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

**

 

[elwill]

This is an admission that it isn’t perfect, as Muslims claim.

what is exactly that isn’t perfect ?

we have nothing to hide

when other dialcet used to pronounce “th” by “sa”
it means that they exchanged the letter " ث" with the letter " س" or “ص” as a pronoucation not as a written , if i’m not familiar with this dialect then i heared it and wanted to write it , then i will write different words

 

[elwill]

Why wasn’t it written down as it was delivered is my question.

---

then all your objections is about , why the angel Jibril didn’t wrote the quran to mohammed (pbuh) ? why do you think it’s neccesery ?

 

[sedonaman]

what is exactly that isn’t perfect ?

we have nothing to hide

when other dialcet used to pronounce “th” by “sa”
it means that they exchanged the letter " ث" with the letter " س" or “ص” as a pronoucation not as a written , if i’m not familiar with this dialect then i heared it and wanted to write it , then i will write different words

6:115. And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All Hearer, the All Knower.

Since it has been changed, it is different. So which is the unalterable word of Allah?

 

[jakasaki]

:banghead:

then all your objections is about , why the angel Jibril didn’t wrote the quran to mohammed (pbuh) ? why do you think it’s neccesery ?

For the LOVE OF GOD,…!!! :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Why wasn’t it written down by mohamads scribes as it was delivered, from beginning to the end is my question.

The koran is one jumble mess - it was not written as it was revealed.

Is my question that difficult…??

If mohamad recited the koran as the angel gave it to him every year, why wasn’t the book compiled the was it was revealed??

Narrated Abu-Huraira:

**Gabriel used to repeat the recitation of the Qur’an with the Prophet once a year, but he repeated it twice with him in the year he died. **

The Prophet used to stay in I’tikaf for ten days every year (in the month of ramadan)

Bukhari: (Book #61, Hadith #520)

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

What jakasaki is basically saying is: why isn’t the Quran organized starting with what was revealed first up to what was revealed last. In other words, chronologically.

 

[jakasaki]

What jakasaki is basically saying is: why isn’t the Quran organized starting with what was revealed first up to what was revealed last. In other words, chronologically.

Thank you!

The hadith states, that “”“Gabriel used to repeat the recitation of the Qur’an with the Prophet once a year…”""

Therefore, Gabriel recited the koran from beginning to end.

& please don’t tell me I need to read the hadith in Arabic…

Gabriel used to repeat the recitation of the Qur’an with the Prophet once a year, but he repeated it twice with him in the year he died.

I used the Gettysburg Address up above as a “sample”

Byz Wolf, you were a muslim once, … what’s your take on my inquiry…??

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Byz Wolf, you were a muslim once, … what’s your take on my inquiry…??

The Quran was organized out of order in regards to revelation, like you pointed out.

Some examples from the hadith sources:

Narrated Abdullah: While I was in the company of the Prophet on a farm and he was reclining on a palm leave stalk, some Jews passed by. Some of them said to the others. “Ask him (the Prophet about the spirit.” Some of them said, “What urges you to ask him about it” Others said, “(Don’t) lest he should give you a reply which you dislike.” But they said, “Ask him.” So they asked him about the Spirit. The Prophet kept quiet and did not give them any answer. I knew that he was being divinely inspired so I stayed at my place. When the divine inspiration had been revealed, the Prophet said. “They ask you (O, Muhammad) concerning the Spirit, Say: “The spirit,” its knowledge is with my Lord; and of knowledge you (mankind) have been given only a Little.” (17.85) [Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 245]

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet was hiding himself in Mecca and used to recite the (Qur’an) in a loud voice. When the pagans heard him they would abuse the Qur’an and the one who brought it, so Allah said to His Prophet: ‘Neither say your prayer aloud, nor say it in a low tone.’ (17.110) [Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 93, Number 637]

So from here you can see two verses from the same chapter in the Quran (S. 17:85 and 17:110) revealed at two completely separate and unrelated moments.

Far as I can tell it is often organized according to topic. Even then, though, it can jump subjects from time to time. Even though the chapters are referred to by names (Mary, The Women, The Cows, etc.) they can go on and talk about other stuff not related to the title as well. When I tell someone to read the Quran, I usually advise them to read it as a theological book rather than the Bible, which is chronological.

 

[sedonaman]

From Wikipedia:

Islam holds that the Qur’an was revealed from Allah to Muhammad orally through the angel Jibrīl (Gabriel) over a period of approximately twenty-three years, beginning in 610 AD, when he was forty, and concluding in 632 AD, the year of his death. Muslims further believe that the Qur’an was memorized, recited and written down by Muhammad’s companions after every revelation dictated by Muhammad. Most of Muhammad’s companions – tens of thousands – learned the Qur’an by heart, repeatedly recited in front of Muhammad for his approval or the approval of other Sahaba Muhammad had approved. The companions also compiled it in written form while Muhammad was alive. Muslim tradition agrees that although the Qur’an was authentically memorized completely by tens of thousands verbally, the Qur’an was still established textually into a single book form shortly after Muhammad’s death by order of the first Caliph Abu Bakr suggested by his future successor Umar. Hafsa, Muhammad’s widow and Umar’s daughter, was entrusted with that Quran text after the second Caliph Umar passed away. When Uthman, the third Caliph, started noticing differences in the dialect of the Qur’an, he requested Hafsa to allow him to use the Qur’an text in her possession to be set as the standard dialect, the Quraish dialect aka Fus’ha (Modern Standard Arabic). Before returning that Qur’an text to Hafsa, Uthman immediately made several copies of Abu Bakar’s Qur’anic compilation and ordered all other texts to be burned. This process of formalization of the orally transmitted text to Abu Bakar’s Qur’anic text is known as the “Uthmanic recension”. The present form of the Qur’an text is accepted by most scholars as the original version compiled by Abu Bakr.

Question: If these “other” texts were not the word of Allah, what were they and where did they come from?

 

[elwill]

What jakasaki is basically saying is: why isn’t the Quran organized starting with what was revealed first up to what was revealed last. In other words, chronologically.

thank you B.W , i confess that i didn’t understood the question this way

okey Jakazaki , i think that B.W gave the answer of that

i can add that
quran supposed to be practical guidence for our life , it’s not academic or historical book

So that , quran was sent down in response to the development of events and in accordance with the sequence needed to complete the delivery of the Message.

quran was revealed throughout more than a twenty-year period, and every time new verse(s) was/were revealed to the Prophet, he asked his companions to place it/them at a certain place in the Qur’an to form a unique sequence.

Allaah, Most High, Says (what means):
“… A Quran which We have given seriatim (separated out) in order that you may recite it to the people at intervals and We have caused it to come down successively (by stages).” [Quran 17:106]

Recording cynical speeches of the unbelievers, Almighty Allaah Says (what means):
“Why has the Quran not been vouchsafed to him (Muhammad) in one single whole?” [Quran 25:32]
And the answer to that is the verse (which means):
“…that your heart (O Muhammad) may be strengthened, We have rehearsed it to you in slow, well-arranged stages, gradually.” [Quran 25:32]