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Angelos
Guest
If this supposition is true, the vast majority of Muslims do not observe all of the commandments in the Koran.
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SimonArizona
Guest
Post these commandments
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Angelos
Guest
Many human beings want war and prefer it to peace though
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trustme80
Guest
Ahh yes, the peaceful verse when Muhammad has no army but a small number of followers.
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SimonArizona
Guest
Some do, and those who want war will inherit it’s fruits.Many human beings want war and prefer it to peace though
We are not deceived by their pretenses to piety. We have seen their kind before. They are the heirs of all the murderous ideologies of the 20th century. By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions – by abandoning every value except the will to power – they follow in the path of fascism, and Nazism, and totalitarianism. And they will follow that path all the way, to where it ends: in history’s unmarked grave of discarded lies.
-George W. Bush
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jen_fla
Guest
you and planten bring up the OT as if to say, “well you guys do too!” (tu quoque)… and we have gone over this numerous times. yes, things were very violent back then. i count my blessings i did not grow up during those times. although Catholics see our religion as en extension of Judaism (analogy of growing tree) we are no longer bound by those practices. Jesus came and we follow His teachings and NO WHERE in the NT does Jesus condone violence. he preaches mercy and kindness.
since you are only answering with simples “nopes” i will not elaborate, but if you care to reread what i posted before on this, please go here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3917029#post3917029
i am grateful that you ignore some of the violent parts of mohammed’s teachings. i wish more muslims were like you.
although it does scare me that you honestly think it is a good idea to stone to death an adulterer. how you could reject the kinder teaching of Jesus is beyond me. you are not perfect and without sin, so i hope one day you don’t find yourself in a country that practices sharia.
it would be horrible if you had a child that stole a bike and you then found your merciful quran calling for his hand to be chopped off.
as to iran (which is republic of ISLAM) making the death penalty mandatory for apostates, i’d like to know your opinion on that.
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Angelos
Guest
Surah 9:29
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
Surah 48:28
He it is Who sent His Apostle with the guidance and the true religion that He may make it prevail over all the religions; and Allah is enough for a witness.
Surah 9:123
O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
Surah 8:39
And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah.
Surah 2:216
Fighting is enjoined on you, and it is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.
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SimonArizona
Guest
So does the Koran contradict itself?
and did Muhammed do miracles?
and did Muhammed do miracles?
J
jen_fla
Guest
yes sadly that is true. however, you can not find any passage in the bible that would ask it’s follower’s to do that.
whereas we can pull up countless teachings from mohammed that teach violence and hatred towards non-muslims.
how come noone EVER responds to this? i will keep posting it, because it is a good indicator for why so many muslims are anti-semitic.
this is ONE of the most revolting teachings to have ever come out of religion and yet, you try to compare a religion of love to this!!!
Book 38, Number 4348:
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.
Book 38, Number 4349:
Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:
A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) declared that no recompense was payable for her blood.
there is NO defending that. this is blatantly going against Christ’s teachings.
the Catholic Church IS the church Christ founded. he didn’t set up the nutjob churches in the bible belt where people handle snakes. no one can even say that Jesus was hinting that being a racist is a good idea. those clan idiots have only themselves to blame for being ignoramuses! they and you cannot blame Christianity for racism when all along it teaches the opposite.
if someone wants the correct interpretation of a passage in the Bible they need to go to the Catholic Church.
whereas muslims don’t have ONE speaker for themselves although i think saudi arabia is setting themselves up to be that voice as that land is now considered their holy land.
saudi arabi is intolerant to other religions. Christians and Jews can not worship openly.
i acknowlege that some muslims reject all the violence and that is great news, but are they the majority. perhaps in non muslim countries, but you need to look at the data from countries under sharia.
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Angelos
Guest
It depends on how you interpret the Koran.Some Muslims believe that 2:256 was abrogated by the supposed revelation of the verses commanding Muslims to fight. Some Muslims, on the other hand, claim that there is no compulsion only within Islam (for Muslims), and non-Muslims cannot experience this tolerance and freedom granted only to the followers of Islam.
Mohammad could perform no miracles although Muslims claim otherwise with the help of some Hadiths. The following verse in the Koran goes against those Hadiths and traditional allegations though:
Surah 13:7
And those who disbelieve say: Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord? You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.
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Angelos
Guest
Mohammad also claimed that the commandment to conduct religious wars on those who do not believe had been levied on Jews and Christians in their scripture:
Surah 9:111
Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah’s way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement.
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jen_fla
Guest
now i remember why i pulled away from these threads before. no reasoning except for the “look at what you guys did”, denial, diversion, lies or the occasional flat out admittance that the violence is truly what God wants. sigh.
you know i never claimed to be an expert in islam, i think you might remember when i first approached this subject with a very open mind. i had bought the idea behind those “coexist” bumper stickers, so desperately wanting that to be true.
but these interpretations are from muslim clerics not me. i just don’t get how anyone could fall for this.
they are the ones sending the message that making mischief can be with words, not us.
bosnewslife.com/news/3850-son-of-executed-iranian-christian-in-solitary
PICKTHAL: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
at any rate, keep up the posts. i learn much from you!
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R_not
Guest
It is hard to respond to people who are at the beginning of trying to understand islam.
Yes, the koran and hadiths contradict themselves so often it is mind boggling.
A good place to go to get some basics in islam is to www.faithfreedom.org
There is an article in that site that talks about abrogated and unabrogated surahs.
koran - abrogation
No mohammed did no miracles. I just happened to have posted about this and the reason why mohammed is NOT a prophet.
10 reasons why mohammed is not a prophet:
- Islam cannot be from God because the prophet of Islam, Muhammad, did not pass God’s first test for a prophet. Deuteronomy 18:21-22 tells us that God will authenticate those He sends as a prophet by having them perform signs. Muhammad gave no sign as required by God.
- Islam cannot be from God because Muhammad’s teaching does not pass the second test God gave for a prophet. Deuteronomy 13:1-4 tells us that no prophet will bring a revelation that is in conflict with previous revelation. His revelation must agree with the previous revelation of God. Deuteronomy 13:1-4
Read the rest of the reasons
There is a wealth of information on islam - but make sure to question what the muslims tell you because they are trying to do what is called da’wa - convert you. In islam there are only 3 ways that muslims recognize peace with non-muslims and that is: death, conversion or subjugation (dhimmitude). The call to islam is da’wa - it is what we have seen muslims such as Zawahiri, bin Ladin, etc do before their attacks/bombs - da’wa. Sometimes we see the videos of that on the news and obviously, many times we do not.
All I got to say is read read read - something that is NOT encouraged in islam for their own, or anyone they think they can convert.
Now, I will say that reading the koran is boring, it is illogical, and if you don’t know about the abrogated surahs - they are all mixed into the koran. What surahs the muslims on these sites will often do is post those abrogated surahs - they are considered more ‘peaceful’. (even those times, in Mecca, are questioned because in their hadiths it is proven that mohammed was a trouble maker and the elders would ask his uncle to stop mohammed from being a pest - but his uncle could not - and the muslims will claim that mohammed was persecuted during the time in Mecca - as they do to this very day - claim victimhood after being the cause of chaos and worse.)
I wouldn’t buy a koran - read it online if you can, or print out pages. Follow along in this ‘blog the koran’ series. You can read a surah and Mr. Spencer (who muslims claim is bashing - does not bash. If you read these you will see that Mr. Spencer is just telling the truth)
blogging the koran
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Angelos
Guest
This verse you quoted (Surah 5:33) is used by many Muslims who think that whoever criticises the Koran and Islam is an open enemy of Allah and Mohammad and must therefore be killed.now i remember why i pulled away from these threads before. no reasoning except for the “look at what you guys did”, denial, diversion, lies or the occasional flat out admittance that the violence is truly what God wants. sigh.
you know i never claimed to be an expert in islam, i think you might remember when i first approached this subject with a very open mind. i had bought the idea behind those “coexist” bumper stickers, so desperately wanting that to be true.
but these interpretations are from muslim clerics not me. i just don’t get how anyone could fall for this.
they are the ones sending the message that making mischief can be with words, not us.
bosnewslife.com/news/3850-son-of-executed-iranian-christian-in-solitary
PICKTHAL: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
at any rate, keep up the posts. i learn much from you!
P
planten
Guest
** My opinion on apostacy is that if there is no war, let the apostate alone on whatever religion he/she likes to follow. Do never kill him or even hate him/her. That is the true teaching of Islam. But some countries are acting on some Hadith which call for death penalty for the apostates.
Same about the adulteres. In Judaism, the penulty for adulterer is death by stoning (mentioned in bible NT too). The prophet Muhammad acted on that command for some time until the verse 24:2 was revealed telling us that adulterer should be flogged 100 lashes.
But if is a case of rape or murder after rape then the culprit should be killed. Not otherwise. !00 lashes is prescribed for the adulterer and the fornicator.**
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planten
Guest
** Please note those were war times. War was imposed on the newly established state of the Muslims at Madinah. It was necessary to find out about the friend and foes so that innocent non-combatants are not killed.
Imagine, there were some people of the Book who did not believe in God and the hereafter…??? Were they to be considered as the people of the book?
Yet they were given a choice to pay a non-combatant tax and live peacefully without any fear of any attack from any side. Try to look at things realistically please.**
**That is true. If Islam prevailed it would be the victory of all Monotheistic religions over the pagans etc. You should not be worried. All religions were based on Islam i.e. Peace. Judaism and christianity were all from the same God.
By the time Muhammad arrived, the true light had disappeared fromt he face of the earth. Those who were given the true knowledge were all gone astray. It happens like that, always.**
It is about the violent (Kafir) disbelievers. Not any simple peaceful non-believers. It is said that we have to fight the enemy type disbelivers even if they were the near of kin. No harm in that. Wonderful good teaching to kill the war mongers, enemies of truth.
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** Please try to understand what is persecution. To oppress any one just for the difference of his faith is also persecution. It is not allowed in Islam to oppress any one for his/her faith… It is allowed to fight such people who persecute. Persecution is considered worse than killing some one.**
Thanks angelos for presenting the excellent teachings of Quran. Islam is always inclined to peace. If pressed for war, it is incumbant upon all Muslims to fight and not to offer the other cheek. Thanks again.
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planten
Guest
**All useless post above. Basing our religion on the Hadith. There is Quran which is foremost and supercedes the bibles. Whatever is presented above is all null and void.
I can likewise find many fault with the un-natural things in the bible such as a man walking god etc which no one will be able to explain… I request that the christians should please not intentionally find any faults with Islam because their own system is on very weak footing. All un-natural, irrational. Thanks.**
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Angelos
Guest
Thousands of Koran versions I read have no wrods or phrases to support your theory. 9:29 is apparently a permanent commandment imposed on Muslims, this Surah belonging to the last period of the supposed revelation.
If I give in to your unreasonable arguments, I get thousands of miles away from reality, dear planten.
It is not your Mohammad’s duty to judge and punish non-Muslims that do not follow their scripture. My Lord and God has never given that authority to your messenger.
More, the verse also has the phrase “those who do not embrace the religion of truth” (Islam), which you deliberately ignore. Fighting Christians or all non-Muslims because they do not follow Mohammad’s ideology is the paramount example of compulsion in Islam. Consequently, Islam cannot be the religion of peace and tolerance as it is suggested by deceitful Muslim scholars.
Your reasoning makes no sense to me. You cannot seriously talk of peace and freedom of faith when you allow non-Muslims to survive ONLY IF they surrender to the Islamic attacks and give money to Mohammad’s followers.
You are once more reading into the Koran what is NOT there. Your scripture did not consider Judaism and Christianity the only true religion. It is IMPOSSIBLE for Islam to be the predominant religion in the world without wars. Thus, your so-called religion of peace has an ideal based on blood and oppression.
Actually, some people were forced into darkness when Mohammad claimed to be the final prophet and attributed his fabricated teachings to God almighty.
We do not need your Mohammad or his so-called truth since we have Jesus, through whom came truth and grace. Keep your Mohammad to yourself please
This is another faulty assumption from you. The Koran verse I quoted does not distinguish violent disbelievers from peaceful ones. You can only put the blame on the authors of your Koran if you think that they forgot to add the adjective “violent”.
I understand what persecution is thanks to your religion. Muslims have no right to take refuge in the notion of persecution whilst they themselves always persecute and fight people (to overpower them) who do not follow their religion.
Thanks dear planten for once more evading my points and trying to deceive non-Muslims. Thanks also for striving to conceal the facts that you are ashamed of in your scripture.
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Angelos
Guest
Since you are considered heretical by mainstream Islam, your theories and accusations fail to defend your faith. Sorry, dear planten. This is the bitter truth
T
Traditional_Ang
Guest
Planten:
One of the chief tenants of Christianity in general and Catholicism (and Orthodoxy) in Particular is that Jesus Christ is God the Son, the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity. The fact that Jesus Christ is Risen from the Dead on the 3rd Day after his Crucifixion and Death proves that Jesus was NO mere man, but that He was God in the flesh, as He claimed on repeated occasions, and as the Church has believed since its founding on the Day of Pentacost.
You don’t have to accept this if you don’t want to be a Christian, but you do if you do want to be a Christian. Either you accept his saving Death and Resurrection from the Dead and what it implies regarding His Divinity, or you don’t. There’s no third option.
It’s NOT Blasphemous if Jesus Christ is who He said he is and if He Rose from the Dead…
Yours in Christ, Michael
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