Islam & Muslim bashing thread?

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I understand what you are saying Planten. I would just say that when we are looking for God we have to use our own intelligence in deciding what is revelation and what is not.
What is credible and what is not. Some will agree with you and some will not, depending on how they personally see things.

We should understand that the differences between us come from what makes sense to us and what we see as credible and what moves us to follow God.

In a perfect world we should be charitable and understanding and listening to respect to eachothers views. To work properly, all people need to be like this.

If we start saying that someone else’s views are impossible and ignorant and has unreconcilable problems then the charitable discussion starts to dissappear.
 
planten said:
I do not believe that Hadith, or I cannot understand it. It must have been introduced in our books by some christian enemy of Islam. In islam. there is no compulsion in accepting or rejecting any faith.

But it is true. I admit, The majority Muslims are acting on such Hadith in many countries even today. I do not know how and why. They do try to kill the apostates. That is wrong and a sin. They should leave the person alone and let him/her go on his/her way peacefully.
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planten, i am going to ignore your second statement as it is so ridiculous i wouldn’t even know where to start. but i will say, why would you make up that when you have NO proof that that is true?

you do realize that the majority of muslims completely disagree with you.

you are not our enemy and we are not competing. if you love God then you love the Truth. that is what we are all here for, right?

if you truly believe in the peace that you say you do, then i think most theologians would agree you’d make a better Christian than a muslim. think about it, you never would have to ignore or make up stories to defend your faith.

how can you honestly say that you “do not know how or why”?.. honestly… how can you say that??? you know precisely how and why because mohammed repeated it often. that was just ONE hadith. how many more do you want me to pull up? or should i bring up this thread again?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=255031

btw, i pray for you too. i pray you can open your mind to the Truth that comes from the one True God.
 
jen_fla said:
planten, i am going to ignore your second statement as it is so ridiculous i wouldn’t even know where to start. but i will say, why would you make up that when you have NO proof that that is true?

you do realize that the majority of muslims completely disagree with you.

you are not our enemy and we are not competing. if you love God then you love the Truth. that is what we are all here for, right?

if you truly believe in the peace that you say you do, then i think most theologians would agree you’d make a better Christian than a muslim. think about it, you never would have to ignore or make up stories to defend your faith.

how can you honestly say that you “do not know how or why”?.. honestly… how can you say that??? you know precisely how and why because mohammed repeated it often. that was just ONE hadith. how many more do you want me to pull up? or should i bring up this thread again?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=255031

btw, i pray for you too. i pray you can open your mind to the Truth that comes from the one True God.
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** Please leave the Hadith. You may have 20 Hadith on that subject. Just show me ONE verse of the Quran telling the Muslims to kill an apostate. Until then keep the bundle of Hadith closed. Thanks.**
 
dzheremi said:
Maybe I have misread you, but I am refering to this post:

This was in reply to Booklover’s assertion that Islamic claims about loving Jesus are deception. I don’t agree with that, personally, but I was even more disconcerted by your reply. It seems to confirm Booklover’s assertion, rather than deny it.
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**Please note that it was in reply to booklover’s post in which BL insisted on the matter of the prophet having sex with a nine year old girl. See below:

Originally Posted by Booklover
**So you consider it perfectly okay for a man over fifty years old to have sex with a 9 year old girl??
How childish, irrational and hypocritical you are! Because we don’t accept Muhammad as a prophet, you resort to bashing Jesus, who you claim to love! "Loving Jesus"is more Islamic deception. You don’t give a hoot about Jesus.

Vickie
You can see that BL is intent upon some mischief. I never care if BL does not believe in Muhammad. On the one hand BL wants to abuse our prophet and on the other hand BL wants me to love his beloved. That is not possible. That was my reply to BL only.

If you enter the field then please take care of BL first.
I would send a message to BL now that BL does not like that Jesus being a man should have any sex with any lady. Why is that?? I can raise more questions for BL later.
 
abucs said:
I understand what you are saying Planten. I would just say that when we are looking for God we have to use our own intelligence in deciding what is revelation and what is not.
What is credible and what is not. Some will agree with you and some will not, depending on how they personally see things.

We should understand that the differences between us come from what makes sense to us and what we see as credible and what moves us to follow God.

In a perfect world we should be charitable and understanding and listening to respect to eachothers views. To work properly, all people need to be like this.

If we start saying that someone else’s views are impossible and ignorant and has unreconcilable problems then the charitable discussion starts to dissappear.
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**Yes, all correct except the last lines. Do not blame the one side only. See what the others have been saying. And also please note they started the abuse first. I only took action to restrain them. Note who started the un-charitable discussion.

When some one comes to discuss un-charitable things then he/she should be ready for all types of replies. Nobody need to speak ill of our prophet and nobody need to abuse him. Every one can mind their own business. Then there will be no problem.

I cannot understand why some of the christians are so much interested in presenting the uncharitable items on the forum about our prophet. Are they non christains or non Catholics? Please find out. There may be your enemies sitting here.
**
 
planten said:
Just show me ONE verse of the Quran telling the Muslims to kill an apostate.
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Read and explain.
Koran,translated by Yusuf Ali;Sura-4
88. Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
  1. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks
 
planten said:
**Please note that it was in reply to booklover’s post in which BL insisted on the matter of the prophet having sex with a nine year old girl. See below:

Originally Posted by Booklover
**So you consider it perfectly okay for a man over fifty years old to have sex with a 9 year old girl??
How childish, irrational and hypocritical you are! Because we don’t accept Muhammad as a prophet, you resort to bashing Jesus, who you claim to love! "Loving Jesus"is more Islamic deception. You don’t give a hoot about Jesus.

Vickie
You can see that BL is intent upon some mischief. I never care if BL does not believe in Muhammad. On the one hand BL wants to abuse our prophet and on the other hand BL wants me to love his beloved. That is not possible. That was my reply to BL only.

If you enter the field then please take care of BL first.
I would send a message to BL now that BL does not like that Jesus being a man should have any sex with any lady. Why is that?? I can raise more questions for BL later.
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Planten, I know that your reply was in reply to BL. I noted that in my response to you. My question is this: Why do you let BL’s comments change your feelings about Jesus? Why is your love of Jesus conditioned upon another person’s love of your prophet? I do not understand how the two are related. I thought Muslims were supposed to love Jesus as they love all past prophets of the Abrahamic faiths.

This would be like if I decided to believe in Muhammad because you disbelieve in Jesus. It would make no sense. They are not related. And we cannot force one another to believe, anyway. You especially do not help your religion by appearing to discard its principles whenever someone disagrees with you or offends you.

As for addressing BL, I will say the same of her that I said of Lance yesterday when this same issue came up: She is free to believe what she wants to, just as you or I are. I would not say some of the things she has said, but I will not “take care of” her for having posted her opinion. If you think she is wrong, it is enough to say “I think you are wrong about this, and here is why”, instead of bringing in unrelated figures (Jesus) and denigrating them to show your absolute moral indignation.
 
morning_star777 said:
Read and explain.
Koran,translated by Yusuf Ali;Sura-4
88. Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
  1. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks
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I think you forgot to quote the folowing verse… this one:
  1. **Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. **Had Allah willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allah has opened no way for you against them.
Clearly only those who apostate to fight the Muslims are allowed to be fought, in response to the fighting and not the apostasy.
 
Sister_Amy said:
Clearly only those who apostate to fight the Muslims are allowed to be fought, in response to the fighting and not the apostasy.
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Why the muslim condemn Salman Rusdhi to death? Did he fight the muslim? What is the definition of fight do you have. Do you have a common definition obeyed by all muslim in the world? Who knows some muslim define fight as physical and live threatening action, while other muslims define **fight **as anything they disagree with.
 
swariffin said:
Why the muslim condemn Salman Rusdhi to death? Did he fight the muslim? What is the definition of fight do you have. Do you have a common definition obeyed by all muslim in the world? Who knows some muslim define fight as physical and live threatening action, while other muslims define **fight **as anything they disagree with.
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He challenged Islam through words. Muslims challenge him with swords and bombs. What was the saying? The pen is mightier than the sword?
 
Well, he’s alive, isn’t he? And Khomeini, who actually issued the fatwa, is dead.

Score one for the pen! 👍
 
planten said:
** Please leave the Hadith. You may have 20 Hadith on that subject. Just show me ONE verse of the Quran telling the Muslims to kill an apostate. Until then keep the bundle of Hadith closed. Thanks.**
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Are you saying that you DENY everything that is not written in the Koran? :rolleyes:

Although the word “apostasy” is missing from the Koran, there are many verses that equate forsaking Islam with treason. This is because Islam is highly affiliated with politics and regards forsaking Islam as a form of breaking covenant with both Allah and the Islamic state. As a consequence, those who leave Islam are considered traitors.

The following verses imply such an understanding:

Surah 2:27
Who break the covenant of Allah after its confirmation and cut asunder what Allah has ordered to be joined, and make mischief in the land; these it is that are the losers.

Surah 3:90
Surely, those who disbelieve after their believing, then increase in unbelief, their repentance shall not be accepted, and these are they that go astray.

Surah 9:8-12
How (can it be)! while if they prevail against you, they would not pay regard in your case to ties of relationship, nor those of covenant; they please you with their mouths while their hearts do not consent; and most of them are transgressors. They have taken a small price for the communications of Allah, so they turn away from His way; surely evil is it that they do. They do not pay regard to ties of relationship nor those of covenant in the case of a believer; and these are they who go beyond the limits. But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, they are your brethren in faith; and We make the communications clear for a people who know.And if they break their oaths after their agreement and (openly) revile your religion, then fight the leaders of unbelief– surely their oaths are nothing-- so that they may desist.
 
swariffin said:
Why the muslim condemn Salman Rusdhi to death? Did he fight the muslim? What is the definition of fight do you have. Do you have a common definition obeyed by all muslim in the world? Who knows some muslim define fight as physical and live threatening action, while other muslims define **fight **as anything they disagree with.
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All they think about is fighting and killing, and always find ways of justifying their violence!

Vickie
 
swariffin said:
Why the muslim condemn Salman Rusdhi to death? Did he fight the muslim? What is the definition of fight do you have. Do you have a common definition obeyed by all muslim in the world? Who knows some muslim define fight as physical and live threatening action, while other muslims define **fight **as anything they disagree with.
Click to expand...
yes fighting and making mischief can be done with words only and mohammed had no problem with killing those that did.

Book 38, Number 4348:

Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:

A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.

He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.

He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.

Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.

Book 38, Number 4349:

Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:

A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) declared that no recompense was payable for her blood.
 
Sister_Amy said:
I think you forgot to quote the folowing verse… this one:
  1. **Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. **Had Allah willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allah has opened no way for you against them.
Clearly only those who apostate to fight the Muslims are allowed to be fought, in response to the fighting and not the apostasy.
Click to expand...
004.089
SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

you are in denial or have been given the “soft” westerner’s version. please read about abrogation or ask yourself why all the contradictions. some muslims interpret “no compulsion” to mean that you can’t force them to become muslim, but if they leave it then you can kill them.

some muslims believe there is “no compulsion” because they have given non-muslims the generous offer of convert or pay tax of submission.

sister amy are you now denying hadiths, like planten?

would you feel comfortable as a woman, telling a cleric in iran that they don’t understand their own religion? you do know that they just passed the (MANDATORY) death penalty for apostasy?

en.apa.az/news.php?id=89225

gays to be killed as well:

foxnews.com/story/0,2933,311025,00.html

open your eyes, sister. you are playing with fire and i don’t think you know it. …or perhaps you do. you did defend on another thread that married adulterers should be stoned to death. :eek:

regardless you can not judge islam based on how muslims practice it in non-muslim countries.
 
morning_star777 said:
Read and explain.
Koran,translated by Yusuf Ali;Sura-4
88. Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
  1. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks
Click to expand...
**You have not selected the right verses. There is nothing about apostates. Moreover, those verses are during the war time. I said that no one can be killed for apostacy except in war time. Please note that.

Now see the few verses that you have selected:

[4:88] What is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties regarding the Hypocrites**? And Allah has overthrown them because of what they earned. Desire ye to guide him whom Allah has caused to perish? And for him whom Allah causes to perish thou shalt not find a way.

[4:89] They wish that you should disbelieve (become Kafir) as they have disbelieved (become kafirs), so that you may become alike. Take not, therefore, allies from among them, until they emigrate in the way of Allah. And if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and take no friend nor support from among them;

[4:90] Except those who are connected with a people between whom and you there is a pact, or those who come to you, while their hearts shrink from fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had so pleased, He could have given them power against you, then they would have surely fought you. So, if they keep aloof from you and fight you not, and make you an offer of peace, then Allah has allowed you no way of aggression against them.
 
swariffin said:
Why the muslim condemn Salman Rusdhi to death? Did he fight the muslim? What is the definition of fight do you have. Do you have a common definition obeyed by all muslim in the world? Who knows some muslim define fight as physical and live threatening action, while other muslims define **fight **as anything they disagree with.
Click to expand...
Come again?
 
jen_fla said:
004.089
SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

you are in denial or have been given the “soft” westerner’s version. please read about abrogation or ask yourself why all the contradictions. some muslims interpret “no compulsion” to mean that you can’t force them to become muslim, but if they leave it then you can kill them.

some muslims believe there is “no compulsion” because they have given non-muslims the generous offer of convert or pay tax of submission.

sister amy are you now denying hadiths, like planten?

would you feel comfortable as a woman, telling a cleric in iran that they don’t understand their own religion? you do know that they just passed the (MANDATORY) death penalty for apostasy?

en.apa.az/news.php?id=89225

gays to be killed as well:

foxnews.com/story/0,2933,311025,00.html

open your eyes, sister. you are playing with fire and i don’t think you know it. …or perhaps you do. you did defend on another thread that married adulterers should be stoned to death. :eek:

regardless you can not judge islam based on how muslims practice it in non-muslim countries.
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I’m actually quoting the Qur’an.

When the Qur’an contradicts your opinion, you can’t rely on hadiths to back you up.

I love Islam, I really do. I love Muslims too. 🙂

And I really love the Qur’an.
 
Nickkname said:
[commence Sarcasm]

I Hate Muslims Because I Hate Islam And The Koran Is Stupid And Mohammed Was A Pedophile And That’s Why I Think Muslims Are Evil And Don’t Understand Christianity But Continue To Distort The Truth Just As Christians Distort The Torah Oh Well Down With Islam And It’s Stupid Stupid Laws!

[end Sarcasm]
Click to expand...
that is a bit harsh to say in a forum don’t you think??
 
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