Islam & Muslim bashing thread?

[coleraine]

Salaam/peace

I request Admin & mods to be more active & start deleting all the hateful posts & make the forum environment calm & peaceful

peaceful would be nice. but when you regulate the nature of posts, certain issues do not get brought up. we are here to debate, regardless of the title. not to sit around and have a cup’ a tea. you know?

 

[coleraine]

Yeah, but most people apparently think Joseph married Mary when she was 12 and already pregnant, and he was no spring chicken.

Around 700AD, marriage to girls to around 9-12 was pretty common, both in continental Europe and the Middle East, especially among fairly well-off families. Times and customs change. Fingerpointing at Mohammed doesn’t change any of that one whit.

Just saying, please, ease down with that stuff, hey?

Thats not the whole point. One thing is that his marriage to that nine year old is supported by many people in islam. in todays more sensible world. another thing is that he had multiple wives. but most of all, he was supposed to be a holy man. so what about adultry? what about his violence? the fact that he KILLED people.

 

[Nepenthe]

Oh, I wasn’t endorsing going back to the 700’s by any means, for anyone! Quite the opposite. Mohammed lived in a polygamous society of warring, chaotic tribes, and peace be upon him for trying to do something positive about it. Judaea especially under the Romans had a very different set of circumstances, and much praise to them, Christian and Jewish, too for trying their best to improve things as well.

But there’s been a whole lot of water under the dam since both of those things, and so, since we are now (at least I’d like to think) more culturally capable of having civil discussions with people from all over the world, why, let’s SHALL!

 

[coleraine]

Oh, I wasn’t endorsing going back to the 700’s by any means, for anyone! Quite the opposite. Mohammed lived in a polygamous society of warring, chaotic tribes, and peace be upon him for trying to do something positive about it. Judaea especially under the Romans had a very different set of circumstances, and much praise to them, Christian and Jewish, too for trying their best to improve things as well.

But there’s been a whole lot of water under the dam since both of those things, and so, since we are now (at least I’d like to think) more culturally capable of having civil discussions with people from all over the world, why, let’s SHALL!

it just makes me wonder why he was considered a prophet. i mean, so what if he was a man of faith in islam? what did he do that was so great?

 

[Nepenthe]

Welp, he wrote a pretty good book and was quite the public speaker, and helped unite and inspire a horribly fractured society.

Pretty much what a lot of the Hebrew prophets did, really.

I honestly can’t get too worked up over this stuff - I’m neither a Jew, a Muslim, nor a Christian. But I am awfully disappointed to see people senselessly patronizing, insulting, and inciting ill-will among others.

 

[coleraine]

Welp, he wrote a pretty good book and was quite the public speaker, and helped unite and inspire a horribly fractured society.

Pretty much what a lot of the Hebrew prophets did, really.

I honestly can’t get too worked up over this stuff - I’m neither a Jew, a Muslim, nor a Christian. But I am awfully disappointed to see people senselessly patronizing, insulting, and inciting ill-will among others.

what religion are you? not gonna criticize, just wandering.

 

[Nepenthe]

None at all. Never felt any inclination or need for one, and yeah, I have faced some very ugly treatment because of it.

On the other hand, I would very much like to be part of a kind, thoughtful community with other fairly like-minded people, so I’m trying to find some Liberal Quaker meetings to attend - the matter of my theism they regard as my business alone, and that of a Deity if I were a theist. I just like their style all around, what with the sitting quietly, living simply, humanitarianism and so forth. I already resemble one pretty strongly in lifestyle and attitude, and have certainly enjoyed the meetings I have attended in the past (my grandparents on one side were Quakers).

 

[coleraine]

None at all. Never felt any inclination or need for one, and yeah, I have faced some very ugly treatment because of it.

On the other hand, I would very much like to be part of a kind, thoughtful community with other fairly like-minded people, so I’m trying to find some Liberal Quaker meetings to attend - the matter of my theism they regard as my business alone, and that of a Deity if I were a theist. I just like their style all around, what with the sitting quietly, living simply, humanitarianism and so forth. I already resemble one pretty strongly in lifestyle and attitude, and have certainly enjoyed the meetings I have attended in the past (my grandparents on one side were Quakers).

That sounds nice. You would be more than welcome in catholicism, but you seem as though you’ve found your place.

 

[abucs]

Planten, i don’t see why you have a problem regarding the pregnancy of Mary, especially since the Koran says she conceived as a virgin.

Today we can fertilize eggs artificially and implant them in the womb of a woman, be she virgin or not. Are you saying we are more advanced today then God ?

Regarding the marriage to Aisha - for me whether the practice of marrying young girls was widespread or not is not of concern.

The thing to me is that this man - Muhammad was claiming to have divine revelation. This is a very serious claim.

The fact that in his mid fifties, muhammad claimed to have a divine vision which he interpreted as God telling him he should marry aisha - a six year old girl, for me at least, throws doubt on the authenticity of all his ‘revelations’.

From a Christian perspective, the idea that God can create life in what we would call natural or supernatural (refer above) but he specifically wants Muhammad to marry this girl does not ring true.

It looks to me like Muhammads ‘revelations’ were not genuine but came from Muhammads own desires.

We have the contrast of Jesus, the incarnation of God in a supernatural way who leads a chaste life and suffers willingly for our failures against an old man who waged war and says God told him he could marry six year old girls.

Honestly, if we are looking for the pure loving God, it has to be the first in contrast to the second.

For me at least.

 

[morning_star777]

May God have mercy on you for your blindness!

Vickie

Amen

 

[dzheremi]

I don’t understand how you can be a Muslim and not love Jesus? I thought that all Muslims love Jesus because they consider Him a great prophet of Islam; they just don’t believe in His divinity as we do.

Once again, Planten shows that he is willing to disregard his own religion just so he can hate Christianity more completely.

May God help Planten to see the truth.

 

[planten]

what religion are you? not gonna criticize, just wandering.

There was no need to ask that question. The best question could be asked “Do you believe in God?” That would have been enough. If he/she believed in God and was perfectly peaceful person, there is no harm to any one. (Al-Quran 2:62)

 

[dolphinlove]

There was no need to ask that question. The best question could be asked “Do you believe in God?” That would have been enough. If he/she believed in God and was perfectly peaceful person, there is no harm to any one. (Al-Quran 2:62)

There is no harm in knowing what religion you are either. I can comfortably say ‘im a Catholic’. Actually, im proud to say im a Catholic, its an honour to be a Catholic, in my opinion anyway.
So Planten, maybe your not comfortable with what you are? Maybe if you say to yourself ‘im a Catholic’ you will feel so much better.

 

[planten]

Planten, i don’t see why you have a problem regarding the pregnancy of Mary, especially since the Koran says she conceived as a virgin.

** I reply to you only because your post is reasonable, without abuse. Please leave the Quran alone. Go by the bible. Quran does not specifically say that Jesus was born without the agency of a father.
Mary (Maryam) was a virgin alright. But not any special virgin. There are so many virgins in the world.
**

Today we can fertilize eggs artificially and implant them in the womb of a woman, be she virgin or not. Are you saying we are more advanced today then God ?

Yes, please do it that way for Mary too. Implant something? Ehh?

Regarding the marriage to Aisha - for me whether the practice of marrying young girls was widespread or not is not of concern.

** We better not enter that field which is mentioned in man made books. It is not in the Quran.

Do you think that a person who led hundreds of thousands of his people was ignorant of the necessities of life and marriage rules. Enemies of the Muslims have been adding adverse things in the books. So do not discuss on those basis.**.

The thing to me is that this man - Muhammad was claiming to have divine revelation. This is a very serious claim

.

**You are completely wrong there. Perhaps you do not know the A B C of religion. Revelation has done by God to many people and it is even being done today even to non-prophets. It is not an impossible thing. Read the Quran:

1. It was revealed to the mother of Moses to put her son in the water (river). Do you believe that?
2. It was revealed to Mary, even before her marriage, that God will grant her an illustrious son who will be a messenger to the children of Israel. Whatever the message, the important thing is that something was revealed to Mary, or not? Do you believe that?
3. It was revealed tot he apostles of Jesus that they should come to help and support Jesus…
4. It was revealed to Jesus that he will die a normal death and not a cursed death on the cross. Bible supports it and tells us that while he was praying in the garden, an angel came and strenghtened Jesus ( means gave him good news).
5. Matters have been revealed to the prophets of God (Moses a.s.) and non-prophets. Moses was told to strike the rod at the water… His mother, a non-prophet was told to put her son in the river.

I cannot understand how to explain this subject to you. Will you please take all these matters into account and form a better idea about revelation. Revelation was done to every prophet of God including Jesus. He got the messages from God and acted upon them.**

The fact that in his mid fifties, muhammad claimed to have a divine vision which he interpreted as God telling him he should marry aisha - a six year old girl, for me at least, throws doubt on the authenticity of all his ‘revelations’

.

It is without a reference. The reference may be a Hadith. Please come to the Quran first and prove what you said from the Quran..

From a Christian perspective, the idea that God can create life in what we would call natural or supernatural (refer above) but he specifically wants Muhammad to marry this girl does not ring true.

**All the christian perspectives are unreal. They are supposed things, quite un-natural and impossible. But the christians want all the world to believe those impossible things. Yet, they themselves will not believe even a good and possible thing such as revelation to mankind.

I did not want to mention those impossible things but since you have mentioned some, I may also do it. Look at the son of God and begotten son of God and made pregnant by the holy ghost and death of god Jesus on the cross… There could be a long list you know…
**.

It looks to me like Muhammads ‘revelations’ were not genuine but came from Muhammads own desires

.

**You are wrong. You cannot be the judge. Forget that Aisha business. That was not the only revealtion. There were many others and the whole Quran is the true and best example of all revelations. Try to look for the problem in the Quran please.

It describes so many things.

There is no harm to any one if you do not believe in the revelations done to Muhammad. You can be on your own way. Be peaceful and balanced and without hate or prejudice to any one. There is no harm to us. You will be a good fellow. try to be a good christian. That is no harm to us.**

We have the contrast of Jesus, the incarnation of God in a supernatural way who leads a chaste life and suffers willingly for our failures against an old man who waged war and says God told him he could marry six year old girls

.

That was not the only revelation about six year old girl. There was a complete new Code of life for all mankind for all times to come. As far as your belief about Jesus, they are all un-natural and impossible. They are just good wishes or wishful thinking that you want others to believe. But none of them is true.

Honestly, if we are looking for the pure loving God, it has to be the first in contrast to the second.

For me at least.

** I said, “No harm to us”. You are happy with your beliefs then we are happy too. Just remain peaceful and honest and be just and kind, not abusive. Feel the same for others what you need for yourself. You will be on the right path. That is islam.**

 

[planten]

I don’t understand how you can be a Muslim and not love Jesus? I thought that all Muslims love Jesus because they consider Him a great prophet of Islam; they just don’t believe in His divinity as we do.

Once again, Planten shows that he is willing to disregard his own religion just so he can hate Christianity more completely.

May God help Planten to see the truth.

Please post my exact words (complete) about loving or not loving Jesus. Then give your comments. Thanks.

 

[jen_fla]

There was no need to ask that question. The best question could be asked “Do you believe in God?” That would have been enough. If he/she believed in God and was perfectly peaceful person, there is no harm to any one. (Al-Quran 2:62)

for a muslim that is not true.

if you believe in God and are searching between religions and become muslim and then decide it is false and choose Judaism or Christianity, then you are to be killed.

just thought i’d set the record straight.

Book 38, Number 4341:

Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal:

AbuMusa said: Mu'adh came to me when I was in the Yemen. A man who was Jew embraced Islam and then retreated from Islam. When Mu'adh came, he said: I will not come down from my mount until he is killed. He was then killed. One of them said: He was asked to repent before that.

 

[planten]

Thats not the whole point. One thing is that his marriage to that nine year old is supported by many people in islam. in todays more sensible world. another thing is that he had multiple wives. but most of all, he was supposed to be a holy man. so what about adultry? what about his violence? the fact that he KILLED people.

**Now you are entering into difficult fields. But yet you have not cleared the problem of the pregnancy of Mary and the secret marriage of Jesus to Mary Magd. Jesus was a man and he could marry. No harm.

You are accusing our prophet of adultry too and about violence. Any proof. Or you have only one eye. You do not look to the bad things of the others who killed many believing Muslims mercilessly. You and you fake beliefs of love and unnatural behaviour of offering the other cheek. That is all wrong and lies.

How can you start a new type of accusation now that the matter with Lance has been settled. Lance has apologised. That is the end of it. But it appears that there are many Lance here in the christians. It is a basic general principle of the christians to find faults with Muslims and to hate Islam.

I believe any one who abuses our prophet Muhammad is a kafir. Nobody need to believe in Muhammad. But any one who abuses Muhammad is a kafir.**

 

[swariffin]

Thanks for advice. Did you feel bad about Lance saying Muhammad was pedeophile and that he was a false prophet?. How do you accept that?. Was it necessary to say those things? I feel it was most unlike christians, unlike Catholics.

My religion, my book does not teach me anything bad about Jesus or Mary. I know my beliefs but i have the right to ask Lance about the secret marriage of Jesus to Mary magd and about the illegal birth of Jesus.

I am from the eastern part of the world, Planten. Even today in my country, a practice of marrying a girl of 13 yrs old still exist in the remote villages (not in cities). The Gov’t tried to discourage those practices, and such occations are diminishing. You see, I always try to see things objectively. I hope you will understand that I (and some other of us in this forum) never had any idea to denounce Islam. What we are doing, is exchanging logic (not faith) of our view toward our religion. We are different, and no question about it. But, by exchanging logic in this way, I can appreciate more of my own religion. I believe you do too. I do regret that some of the posting became uncharitable.

 

[planten]

for a muslim that is not true.

if you believe in God and are searching between religions and become muslim and then decide it is false and choose Judaism or Christianity, then you are to be killed.

just thought i’d set the record straight.

Book 38, Number 4341:

Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal:

AbuMusa said: Mu'adh came to me when I was in the Yemen. A man who was Jew embraced Islam and then retreated from Islam. When Mu'adh came, he said: I will not come down from my mount until he is killed. He was then killed. One of them said: He was asked to repent before that.

I do not believe that Hadith, or I cannot understand it. It must have been introduced in our books by some christian enemy of Islam. In islam. there is no compulsion in accepting or rejecting any faith.

But it is true. I admit, The majority Muslims are acting on such Hadith in many countries even today. I do not know how and why. They do try to kill the apostates. That is wrong and a sin. They should leave the person alone and let him/her go on his/her way peacefully.

 

[dzheremi]

Please post my exact words (complete) about loving or not loving Jesus. Then give your comments. Thanks.

Maybe I have misread you, but I am refering to this post:

For you, I would not say that I love Jesus.

This was in reply to Booklover’s assertion that Islamic claims about loving Jesus are deception. I don’t agree with that, personally, but I was even more disconcerted by your reply. It seems to confirm Booklover’s assertion, rather than deny it.