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planten
Guest
** Dear Traditional Ang. You have already put too much in your post. I am talking about Quran. You are presenting the Muslim politicians. You have also presented a case of a film by some holland madman. If he was not mad then he was an ignorant person. I had seen that film some time before.
He used wrong verses to make the film. If there are any verses ordering fighting then they are about the Kafirs who are the enemies of Islam. They are not simple non-believers or peaceful disbelievers. They are non_muslims who are ready to fight Islam with might and money.
I assure you that film was all wrong. If you have any doubt then you can present any verse of Quran that Geert used to defame Islam. I will clarify the matter for you. Please bring one thing at a time and before presenting any verse, make sure it is not about Kafirs. Thank you.**
He used wrong verses to make the film. If there are any verses ordering fighting then they are about the Kafirs who are the enemies of Islam. They are not simple non-believers or peaceful disbelievers. They are non_muslims who are ready to fight Islam with might and money.
I assure you that film was all wrong. If you have any doubt then you can present any verse of Quran that Geert used to defame Islam. I will clarify the matter for you. Please bring one thing at a time and before presenting any verse, make sure it is not about Kafirs. Thank you.**
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R_not
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jen_fla
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yes, that is true. poor ayaan hirsi ali knows this better than most. here is part of an excellent interview done with her over at reason magazine. i pray for her safety.This verse you quoted (Surah 5:33) is used by many Muslims who think that whoever criticises the Koran and Islam is an open enemy of Allah and Mohammad and must therefore be killed.
Hirsi Ali: We have to revert to the original meaning of the term tolerance. It meant you agreed to disagree without violence. It meant critical self-reflection. It meant not tolerating the intolerant. It also came to mean a very high level of personal freedom.
Then the Muslims arrived, and they hadn’t grown up with that understanding of tolerance. In short order, tolerance was now defined by multiculturalism, the idea that all cultures and religions are equal. Expectations were created among the Muslim population. They were told they could preserve their own culture, their own religion. The vocabulary was quickly established that if you criticize someone of color, you’re a racist, and if you criticize Islam, you’re an Islamophobe.
Reason: The international corollary to the word tolerance is probably respect. The alleged lack of respect has become a perennial sore spot in relations between the West and Islam. Salman Rushdie receiving a British knighthood supposedly signified such a lack of respect, as did the Danish cartoons last year, and many other things. Do you believe this is what Muslims genuinely crave—respect?
Hirsi Ali: It’s not about respect. It’s about power, and Islam is a political movement.
rest of interview here:
reason.com/news/show/122457.html
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jen_fla
Guest
planten, i am glad that you openly DENY mohammed’s command to kill the apostate. good for you! you just put some joy in my heart!
as for adultery, perhaps you have a poor memory. i remember all too well my first thread on islam had to do with this very subject. you are trying to mislead new readers. it was spelled out to me that adulterers are to be flogged, and married adulterers are to be STONED TO DEATH.
you know that is true. you followed the dialogue between me and sister amy as we worked out the details. but hey, if you truly believe that married people should not be stoned to death, then again, my heart is glad you are openly denying mohammed’s cruel teachings! you have more in common with Christianity than you know. :getholy:
and for the umteenth time jews today do NOT stone adulterers! i lost count at how many times we have told you that. can you honestly admit that you have read anything in the news or know of any Jewish organization that condones that?
… didn’t think so.
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jen_fla
Guest
planten, clearly you do not understand Christianity. if you actually wanted to learn what we believe instead of what you think we believe then pick one aspect and start a new thread. we will be happy to go into detail and help you out.
what do you say to the majority of traditional muslims that all know they must follow quran and sunna? again, i am glad that you chose to ignore them although we all have seen you post hadiths when it suits your argument. you can’t have it both ways.
this is from a PRO islamic site:
Are there any other sacred sources?Yes, the sunna, the practice and example of the Prophet, is the second authority for Muslims. A hadith is a reliably transmitted report of what the Prophet said, did, or approved. Belief in the sunna is part of the Islamic faith.
taken from here:
islamicity.com/mosque/uiatm/un_islam.htm
i am glad you are out of step with the islamic faith. :clapping: if only more muslims would remove that part of their faith we might see less violence on the planet.
but i do wonder, when i presented that disgusting hadith before (on another thread) and one of our female muslim posters said: "Those non Muslims who are not fighting against Muslims or not committing any blasphemy will also be safe .
Those who were guilty of commiting blasphemy like the poet Kaab who wrote nasty poems against God , God’s last Prophet & other innocent Muslim deserved death penatly."
i notice you did not correct her.
in fact, NOT ONE muslim on this entire forum corrected her!!!
so what message do we take from that?.. **speaking out with words against mo or innocent musims deserves death penalty! **
i’m no fool and i’m simply not buying into this deception.
and i’m sorry you think that God doesn’t have the ability to become man. you have made your opinion greater than what the one true God can do.
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R_not
Guest
I have posted this before about God. God created the Universe - worlds we can not even comprehend probably exist in this vast expanse of the Universe. God created human beings, the animals, birds and fish. Some animals are now extinct, but they were created by God.
And then some suppose that God could not become man in the form of Jesus Christ?! Well, if God can do ANYTHING! then God can certainly become man and also do whatever Godly things that God does. I am sure that He can do more than one thing at once!
The muslims are unable to comprehend this because they have been presented with a god that is unable to remember from day to day hence, the koran (the supposed word of their god) that is full of abrogated surahs. They have been presented with a god that is overly concerned with sex so much so that their heaven is one, big orgy that not only has women, but little boys for the muslim males.
Here is a few examples of the god they are presented with and notice how unknowing this ‘god’ is of its own creations!!
allah says we cannot go out of the zone of the earth
The above restrictions on their god show us that allah didn’t know everything - we not only have left the confines of the earth - but we still do it to this very day!
allah says the mountains stand firm and stop the earth from moving
And if you want another perversion that their prophet mohammed had - he even gave their Satan some unusual characteristics! I mean this one really beats all!
Satan lays eggs and has sex with himself!
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brownjt
Guest
You misunderstand our faith. It is pointless to try to “convert” each other. You do not have to believe the Bible or any faith - God gave everyone a free will - you do agree with that right? Now - if you do not want to believe the commonly accepted christian view of the trinity - ok…it is hard to figure out BUT forget what all the other denominations said and first read what Christ said…
please approach this from an academic not a cultural perspective…he was the spirit of God in human form who was born to correct the errors that the jews were preaching at the time…he was the manifestation of Gods presence…
He - according to the Bible went to his death (foretold) for our sins - he took it on himself on the cross - his death and resurrection paved the way fro your mohammed - just read his accoutns in the gospel and do not worry about the rest.
I know as a Muslim you habe great affection and respect for the man and what he preached, correct?
please approach this from an academic not a cultural perspective…he was the spirit of God in human form who was born to correct the errors that the jews were preaching at the time…he was the manifestation of Gods presence…
He - according to the Bible went to his death (foretold) for our sins - he took it on himself on the cross - his death and resurrection paved the way fro your mohammed - just read his accoutns in the gospel and do not worry about the rest.
I know as a Muslim you habe great affection and respect for the man and what he preached, correct?
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brownjt
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Islam teaches and supports the virgin birth of Jesus to Mary - if you want to defend your faith go educate yourself about it. Do not k\let the mindset of the islamists pervert what is already in the Quran - I have an enlgish one in front of me - would you like me to tell you the page number - come on!
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brownjt
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Does not a number of catholic websites teach the protestant religion is a heresy? Life is too short to worry about medieval concepts!
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brownjt
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who will save the world from the muslim equal of the ant-christ - please read to say that JESUS will - Jesus is no ordinary prophet = please - read you Quran.
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planten
Guest
**I insist that Muhammad did not teach anything against Quran. There is no order in the Quran to kill an apostate. If the Mullas have formulated some new rule then i am not responsible. There was no command from Muhamamd to kill any apostate in peacetime, only due to his/her apostacy. So I did not deny Muhammad’s command. I probably denied the present day Mullas command.
Please do not mind my language.
**.
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I may not have taken interest in your earlier posts. I am sure that there is no order in Quran to kill an adulterer. That is the end of this subject.
Then there are rules. Matters of life and death, Haram and Halal cannot be decided by Hadith alone. Proof for such importamt matters must come from the Quran. Stoning is a Capital punishment. It is not mentioned in the Quran to stone the adulterer. So that is the end of that false assumption.
:
**I do not mind that you be happy for any supposed thing. I did not go against any order of the prophet. I do not believe that the prophet stoned any to death after the revelation of verse 24:2.
But if there is a case of rape or murder +rape then the man may be killed.**
Please note, I do not care what the Jews are doing now. You please tell me if there is the punishment of stoning for the adulterer in Jewish law or not. Come to that side. Do not detrack the discussion. You will not deny that that punishment for adultry in Jewish law is still stoning to death. Yes?
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planten
Guest
** Trad Ang, I do not mind what belief you have. You may make Jesus superior to God too. I will have no problem. If you want to say that Jesus is God then go ahead. Say it. If you say that he died for your sins, please keep on saying it. I won’t stop you. Say and believe what you like.
But please allow me to say what I believe and what i like. I believe that it is a sin, a blasphemy to call Jesus as God. Jews verdict is in my favor. They caught Jesus and blamed him for blasphemy for the same thing. So you are the odd one out, caught on both sides. Please note it.
Further, we do not believe that Jesus died. First he should not be a god. If he is a god, he should not pray. he should not die. If he did not die then he should not come back to life here in this world.
These are our beliefs. You keep your beliefs. i will keep mine. Thank youvery much. Peace and be happy.
**
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planten
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** jen fla, Please remember that what I wrote about the birth of Jesus or his marraige was not for any simple matter. It was only in reply to assumed attack based on Hadith on the life of our prophet.
There was no need to attack him. I just wanted to ward off that attack. Now you have opened the subject of apostates and adulterers. That is a separate matter. Any honest question / inquiry is alright. But abuse is simply not good. I have nothing against your beliefs. But I can give my opinion and it should be an honest opinion and it is always honest opinion.**
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planten
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planten
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brownjt, That is a good post. I would prefer what Jesus said.
…
Let us believe what you have said. Okay.
Yes, according to the bible. Okay. But how did it paved the way for Muhammad? Give some reference please.
** That is correct. But no use. Christians do not accept muhammad as a ny prophet and they do not believe the good words of the Quran in praise of Jesus and Mary. So what can i do? I will not use the words of Quran about Jesus. i would rather use the info about Jesus from the bible.**I know as a Muslim you habe great affection and respect for the man and what he preached, correct?
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planten
Guest
** Brownjt, It is immaterial here what Islam says . Nobody of the christians believe that. But rather they took undue advantage of the Islamic teachings about Jesus and Mary.
Please try to understand that I believe the virgin birth of Jesus. But that is no use here. That is according to the Quran and nobody believes in the Quran here. So please set it aside. Go by the gospel where the geneology of Jesus is well described in Mathew and Luke and it is told that Jesus was the son of Joseph.
If he was not the son of Joseph then why there is geneology? I do not believe that any angel visited Joseph the carpentar and told him that Mary was already pregnant, that he should not go near her. That is all a false story. The reason for that will be told to you later.
Thanks for your post.**
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planten
Guest
**Brownjt, thanks for your Islamic knowledge. I am aware that there is Messiah promised for the Muslims as was promised for the Jews.
Jesus was a Jew and he was for the Jews. He was the true promised Messaih for the Jews**. Do you agree to that? Please let me know. Thanks.
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R_not
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It does indeed say in the koran to kill apostates from islam. When a muslim says that it does not then that muslim doesn’t even know their own ‘religion’. OR!! They are in major deception mode!
**047.025
YUSUFALI: Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance was clearly shown to them,- the Evil One has instigated them and busied them up with false hopes.
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who turn back after the guidance hath been manifested unto them, Satan hath seduced them, and He giveth them the rein.
SHAKIR: Surely (as for) those who return on their backs after that guidance has become manifest to them, the Shaitan has made it a light matter to them; and He gives them respite. **
So, since allah (mohammed’s alter ego) didn’t like that the peaceful ones didn’t like the killing and stealing part of islam.
**004.089
YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
PICKTHAL: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. **
And then allah, mohammed’s alter ego, just couldn’t let it go so he continues to go after the apostates!
**047.027
YUSUFALI: But how (will it be) when the angels take their souls at death, and smite their faces and their backs?
PICKTHAL: Then how (will it be with them) when the angels gather them, smiting their faces and their backs!
SHAKIR: But how will it be when the angels cause them to die smiting their backs.
047.028
YUSUFALI: This because they followed that which called forth the Wrath of Allah, and they hated Allah’s good pleasure; so He made their deeds of no effect.
PICKTHAL: That will be because they followed that which angereth Allah, and hated that which pleaseth Him. Therefor He hath made their actions vain.
SHAKIR: That is because they follow what is displeasing to Allah and are averse to His pleasure, therefore He has made null their deeds.
047.032
YUSUFALI: Those who reject Allah, hinder (men) from the Path of Allah, and resist the Messenger, after Guidance has been clearly shown to them, will not injure Allah in the least, but He will make their deeds of no effect.
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and oppose the messenger after the guidance hath been manifested unto them, they hurt Allah not a jot, and He will make their actions fruitless.
SHAKIR: Surely those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah’s way and oppose the Messenger after that guidance has become clear to them cannot harm Allah in any way, and He will make null their deeds.
**
Oh, it goes on and on how mohammed wants anyone who doesn’t kill, or at least approve of it (we see that in the silence of ‘moderates’, the deception of what islam teaches, the things we have found in their mosques (the hate materials), and the lack of riots over the killings but they are not quiet about cartoons!, etc) to suffer.
It even goes on to show us that even the jihadists are expendable.
**047.025
YUSUFALI: Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance was clearly shown to them,- the Evil One has instigated them and busied them up with false hopes.
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who turn back after the guidance hath been manifested unto them, Satan hath seduced them, and He giveth them the rein.
SHAKIR: Surely (as for) those who return on their backs after that guidance has become manifest to them, the Shaitan has made it a light matter to them; and He gives them respite. **
So, since allah (mohammed’s alter ego) didn’t like that the peaceful ones didn’t like the killing and stealing part of islam.
**004.089
YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
PICKTHAL: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. **
And then allah, mohammed’s alter ego, just couldn’t let it go so he continues to go after the apostates!
**047.027
YUSUFALI: But how (will it be) when the angels take their souls at death, and smite their faces and their backs?
PICKTHAL: Then how (will it be with them) when the angels gather them, smiting their faces and their backs!
SHAKIR: But how will it be when the angels cause them to die smiting their backs.
047.028
YUSUFALI: This because they followed that which called forth the Wrath of Allah, and they hated Allah’s good pleasure; so He made their deeds of no effect.
PICKTHAL: That will be because they followed that which angereth Allah, and hated that which pleaseth Him. Therefor He hath made their actions vain.
SHAKIR: That is because they follow what is displeasing to Allah and are averse to His pleasure, therefore He has made null their deeds.
047.032
YUSUFALI: Those who reject Allah, hinder (men) from the Path of Allah, and resist the Messenger, after Guidance has been clearly shown to them, will not injure Allah in the least, but He will make their deeds of no effect.
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and oppose the messenger after the guidance hath been manifested unto them, they hurt Allah not a jot, and He will make their actions fruitless.
SHAKIR: Surely those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah’s way and oppose the Messenger after that guidance has become clear to them cannot harm Allah in any way, and He will make null their deeds.
**
Oh, it goes on and on how mohammed wants anyone who doesn’t kill, or at least approve of it (we see that in the silence of ‘moderates’, the deception of what islam teaches, the things we have found in their mosques (the hate materials), and the lack of riots over the killings but they are not quiet about cartoons!, etc) to suffer.
It even goes on to show us that even the jihadists are expendable.
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Angelos
Guest
The following Koran verse sanctions the murder of ex-Muslims:
Surah 9:74
They swear by Allah that they did not speak, and certainly they did speak, the word of unbelief, and disbelieved after their Islam, and they had determined upon what they have not been able to effect, and they did not find fault except because Allah and His Apostle enriched them out of His grace; therefore if they repent, it will be good for them; and if they turn back, Allah will chastise them with a painful chastisement in this world and the hereafter, and they shall not have in the land any guardian or a helper.
Surah 9:74
They swear by Allah that they did not speak, and certainly they did speak, the word of unbelief, and disbelieved after their Islam, and they had determined upon what they have not been able to effect, and they did not find fault except because Allah and His Apostle enriched them out of His grace; therefore if they repent, it will be good for them; and if they turn back, Allah will chastise them with a painful chastisement in this world and the hereafter, and they shall not have in the land any guardian or a helper.
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